This one is going to hurt!
With HC Domo down, we are doing HC Alysrazor next and then this one, HC Baleroc. Please review & learn prior for this coming reset.
This looks fun .. Countdown I expect can fiddle with healers.
you aint getting them fiddly fingers nowhere near me.. i`ve seen what you druids do when its night time in the forest.. oh yes... and oh not its not for me...
1 tank
2 healers
7 dps
If we all maange to do 30-35k dps then we drop to 6 dps & 3 healers.
Key points;
All abilities of the Normal fight but in addition:
The crystal debuff now spreads or refreshes your debuff if you come within 3-4 yds of another player.
-this means we will be spread out rather than grouped.
There is 'blood link' ability much like Blood Queen Lanathel in ICC
-simply run towards each other to remove the link
-healers need to be aware if one healer gets linked with someone who has the debuff and help out
-if both healers get debuffed then it's dodge trinket & CD time and hope for the best
Crystals will be a 2 person rotation instead of 3 per crystal
-this means we stack to a minimum of 13 before stepping out
Reviewing the couple of pulls last night:
Vital Spark build up seemed poor, so let's revert to a single person for first spark to assist Vital Spark stacks.
Shadow Priest can take first spark up to 19 stacks, then Dispersion the rest. (25 stacks per crystal so Vital Spark stacks should be way high at end of that phase)
Thinking some more now, think we need to adjust positions and better define where we move to with/without debuff. Still need a clear area for removing link and for debuffed players to stand. Will post more once brain kicked into gear.
healing wise it was pretty stable- to start with
i found the biggest problem was when we(the healer camp) have to switch between tank and "target"
the target is random, so we cant pre-heal, or prempt where its going to land...
biggest problem with this is, the healer who is "on raid" is needing this time to build up stacks(giving bigger heals), and cant go back to the tank- as it borks up any form of rotation
secondly- mana- we used a massive chunk of it !
puja was oom before the call for mana was issued- and i was on about 20%
and this was early into the fight- solution... more mana ?
Mana will get better with more stacks on you as you have to cast less often to do the same amount of healing. Stack counts were very low on the logs, so you were probably casting way more than needed.
I'm finding quite a few logs where this has been 3 healed now since the nerf. Might be worth a try.
3 heals would take a lot of pressure off
however iw we can 2 man it, it`ll be very interesting
We started to find a rythm for this last night and made some good progress with the best try being something like Bal@40%. We're more or less on track with the dps too which is encouraging with 3 healers.
Initial soaking was found to be too difficult with 3 solo soakers when the soak healers swapped after the first soak. We moved to solo tank healing for a longer period (Jas) so that we could dual heal just two solo soakers (TL & Grimnar) instead of the previously intended three.
Biggest issue is still being aware of who has to take the next crystal and then transitioning to the next person (2 soakers per crystal) at the right time. Too often we had people without the buff just ignoring the person on the crystal being killed. We need to pay more attention and get this under control by being more aware of the soak dynamics. Once we handle this aspect, we're done on this fight as it was the thing that screwed us over each time.
I have just one thing i sort of worry about. It is the time that i am soaking the full crystal (second crystal that spawns) I am in bearform at that time with a full rage bar the whole time and their also comes the problem i noticed yesterday. I am a big dps loss at that time in bear but doing a bear/tank rotation or how you want to call it aint a real option either as what i noticed yesterday.
I stayed away from the heavy hitters that you have in bearform as i was speeding up the threat meter and if i stayed attacking i would have agro'ed the boss for certain. (yes that is the down side of the other tanks compared to a druid tank, same problem we noticed after the patch with dk's versus pally's.)
So should i stay being a dps loss or take the change about the agro and hoping the other tank notice the rise and starts taunting for that time that i am in bear??
You build your threat to the max whilst in bear form, without stealing aggro. As we said last night, Whytee did not see any threat issues so I am guessing there is reasonable head room there to allow you to do dps in bear form whilst soaking. It's down to you to monitor your threat though as we can't have the boss pulled inadvertently whilst you are soaking!
Quote from: Ice Hawk;336143I stayed away from the heavy hitters that you have in bearform as i was speeding up the threat meter and if i stayed attacking i would have agro'ed the boss for certain. (yes that is the down side of the other tanks compared to a druid tank, same problem we noticed after the patch with dk's versus pally's.)
Just keep your aggro below 90%. If I can do it for the fully Raggy fight (bar the sons - ahhhhh, no agro to pay attention to for a bit) then you can watch your agro here.
QuoteSo should i stay being a dps loss or take the change about the agro and hoping the other tank notice the rise and starts taunting for that time that i am in bear??
If you're asked to go bear then I wouldn't view it as a DPS loss but as a survivability gain ;)
For the benefit of myself, why were you in bear form? I assume it's to make the healers job easier slighty when you're soaking torment from a crystal?
Yarp it provides cooldowns and survivability boost to be able to soak a full crystal, only happens at the start. Soaking a full crystal means you get a good deal of stacks of the debuff, which hurts a lot but also gives healers increasingly more of their boost thing every time they heal you. So if you do it at the start, it sets the healers up nicely for the rest of the fight.
Quote from: Twisted;336153For the benefit of myself, why were you in bear form? I assume it's to make the healers job easier slighty when you're soaking torment from a crystal?
The first is soaked entirely by me (using dispersion for the last 6 stacks), the second crystal is soaked entirely by Grimnar (barkskin/frenzied regen/Survival CDs). The rationale for this is it enables the healers to build MT healing buff stacks much faster (as the healer buff increases by +1 for every +3 stacks of the debuff on the soaker that they are healing). This enables much easier tank healing for the remainder of the fight.
For the third and later crystals, we have two people soaking for each crystal, splitting half the debuffs between them each time and limiting the healing needed on soakers as healers already have sufficient stacks for the MT healing for the remainder of the fight.
Just for info .... After TL doing the full first crystal im at over 100 stacks thats more than enough to cover the fight to the end. Grim with the second crystal can/should have 2 healers still on him. If we find its still tricky to keep grim up its no masive loss from the healer side to take a slightly shortend soak 15-20. It may help mana too as we are running on mp5 from the point grim takes over
hmmmm...
Well he went down today after many good attempts.
For myself i loved the movement area i had. It took me a few tries to really getting the best tactic working for myself.
For only 1 melee it is awesome just having 2 ways to run out to and just go on nuking the boss.
This ment that when no crystal is up that i was way up in the middle so i could escape to each side depending on where the backup was comming from if i got the crystal.
This worked out great for me but also for the others, because i was soaking the crystal in mid the other person(s) hadn't had to walk to far and also had a nice and easy escape route to the back.
We will have to see if we can do it also that easy with 2 melee in the group.
Yep a great fight and an awesome result for DMR.
Key to the fight for me was a couple of things:
- DPS performed awesome - we went with one less dps than most raid groups and we still beat the enrage timer by 5 seconds. Overall DPS levels were between 20.4k - 28.0k DPS which is fantastic given all of the movement and soaking periods we had to handle.
- We managed the soak rotation ONLY by maintaining clear & timely TS communication throughout the fight. It's critical we maintain this TS communication due to the dynamic nature of the soaking (make sure your mic is working!!).
- Managing to maintain the DPS levels whilst doing all the movement too - my hat is off to the DPS classes, great job!
- Let's not forget Whytee who self-healed his way through the early bit of the fight where we don't heal him (whilst healers build stacks) - we noted that Lay on Hands is now FIXED and works properly again on this fight which is a massive bonus.
- Healers did a super awesome job as they had to maintain their rotation whilst listneing to the TS chat of the soakers. Excellent job in maintaining focus.
We did adjust slightly what we did:
-TL soaked first crystal
-Grim soaked second crystal but stopped soaking after 21 stacks (someone else soaked after that); all further crystals were shared between 2 soakers (12 or 13 stacks per person)
-we ensured that we pre-potted for the pull, then pushed another pot during the fight (*coughs* logs show some people forgot on the kill, but that's ok as we did it anyway, but most used 2 pots!)
Heroic Beth'tilac is next folks - then we're level in raid progression with the BEST of the 10 man raid guilds on Aszune.
You got him? Wow that's pretty sweet! :O
I'll be around again tomorrow, ready for some Beth'whooping ;-)
Yarrrr.. and we got the ryoloth or whatever that big *****'s name is on heroic as well.. 3rd try ofcourse :P it was a good night!
I should stay away more often - it's good for business it seems ;-)
not just you staying away dude, I wasnt there due to MASSIVE hangover from my birthday
Noreia and Sheepy.
Your dps sux. Get up on 22k+ steady on this boss, please?
You are consistently (4 times on sunday, 4 times yesterday) wiping us as we are hitting enrage.. and your low dps(17k-20k) is causing this.
This is how it looked the one time this boss went down:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/c3w0p12rkbudi0ox/sum/damageDone/?s=9340&e=9696
Only grimnar is allowed to get close to 20k because of his bear-form-soaking during Heroism
I don't know about yesterday as i can't see the logs from yesterday yet.
I tried something else a few tries yesterday to still have a little dps boost then i had with the kill.
But at the moment i can't check if it worked.
Also a thing for the melee camp when we are there with 2 of us.
We have to do our movement way better then we did yesterday also the calls should be done way better.
We had way to many times the crystal way to far to the left of the boss.
If 2 melee are in the group they have to make sure that they are as much as possible in the middle (behind the boss).
Each has an escape route one to the left and the other to the right of the boss. Also make sure when a crystal is gone that you jump back to the middle spot (make sure if debuffed that you stay far enough away from other people) This makes sure that if the crystal spawns that it is easy to reach for everyone and we still have our escape routes. Also stand on the side of the crystal where you can reach your save spot when debuffed.
For example: I am on the right side of the boss that means i stand in the middle and as soon as the crystal spawns at me i step to the right side of it so i can run to the right and the other person can stand at the left of the crystal or middle with an easy escape to the ranged debuff zone. It makes movement very easy and a lower change that you debuff someone else on route...
Would Noreia be outside of melee range through movement?
Nope, never.
edit:
Let me type abit more then the 2 words.
I think most try's were abit messy due to alot of mistakes that were made, ill post a few examples.
1. People saying i cant take the chrystal.. running out ( someone else runs in ) and then run in again saying nothing leaving the 3 people with a debuff.
2. people running into a group of people with the debuff and by doing so debuffing a dps or 2 and a healer.
3. not popping heroism for 20 sec so people are losing the cooldowns.
4. people running out to sides there not supposed to be and ofcourse.. crystal's spawn there.
etc etc.
All with all the low dps can be explained ( reason why TL wasnt on 28 and others were not on 22 - 26 ).
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/u9lq8zxtzd06e5j8/sum/damageDone/?s=2523&e=2905
and this is the log from the 1.9m wipe :(
On the first kill we had all DPS above 20k and we pulled 167k rdps.
Best enrage attempt last night hit 151k rdps.
Attempt| rDPS|DPS range|Shortfall
First Kill|167k|20 - 27.9k|-
Try 1|133k|17 - 24.6k|-34k
Try 2|127k|17 - 23.6k|-40k
Try 3|138k|15.9 - 27.1k|-29k
Try 4|141k|16.9 - 23.2k|-26k
Try 5|151k|17.1 - 26.2k|-16k
Try 6|147k|19.4 - 27.6k|-20k
Try 7|155k|16.7 - 28.6k|-12k
Try 8|147k|18.6 - 27.4k|-20k
Try 9|147k|17.9 - 26.0k|-20k
We hit enrage again several times last night, so in my book we just need higher dps.
When we got the first kill we had all bar 1 dps at 23.8k dps or higher which we are struggling to achieve at the moment.
We need everyone to look at their dps rotations, their gear, gemming, enchants, pots and work out where to squeeze more dps out of the fight please, particularly those at the lower end of the dps range.
Let's also examine the logs to see what buffs we were missing (if any) when we compare the first kill to the wipes of last night.
Teaell,
Maybe you can add this data to it as well:
Baleroc 10H Try 1 (06:22) -> enrage.
Baleroc 10H Try 2 (02:56)
Baleroc 10H Try 3 (01:07)
Baleroc 10H Try 4 (04:56)
Baleroc 10H Try 5 (06:22) -> enrage.
Baleroc 10H Try 6 (03:21)
Baleroc 10H Try 7 (02:08)
Baleroc 10H Try 8 (04:30)
Baleroc 10H Try 9 (06:21) -> enrage.
I looked at things from my shadow priest perspective and comparing Try 5 (our highest dps enrage try) with the first kill logs I see:
We had no Int Buff (6% spell damage lost across the raid which is equivalent to 1.55m damage or an additional 4.05k rdps). So my 25.038k dps could have been 26.54k dps if I had been int buffed.
Where did the rest of our dps go?
Volcanic Potion use (spell casters):
Teaell 11
Jesung 9
Sheepat 6
(typical expected is # of tries + number of enrage = 9+3 = 12: this is pre-pot + one towards end of fight)
Tol'vir Potion use (melee & hunters):
Noréia 8
Hubbah 8
Grimnar 5
(typical expected is # of tries + number of enrage = 9+3 = 12: this is pre-pot + one towards end of fight)
That's a lot of missing dps from not pre-potting, then using another towards the end of the fight.
@Hubbah, I could have, but tbh the dps numbers are pretty much alike across all the tries so I decided not to bother. The logs show time length and I used DPSe for the numbers anyway.
Handy to have a buffbot outside for fights like these perhaps? To chuck us that int if we don't have a mage in the kill team?
Quote from: TeaLeaf;337548Tol'vir Potion use (melee & hunters):
Grimnar 5
This one i can easy answer:
I think looking at the numbers that i am the only one that uses his second potion alot later then anyone else.
My fight on the potion point of view:
I pre-pot and run in with the benefit of heroism, after that i wait for my berserk to come off cooldown again. That means that my second potion will be used sort of at the end of the fight. This ment that yesterday with the tries that we had that we whiped before it was my time to use beserk and the potion again.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;337543We need everyone to look at their dps rotations, their gear, gemming, enchants, pots and work out where to squeeze more dps out of the fight please, particularly those at the lower end of the dps range.
You are wrong.
Incendia and Grimreaper went out. (did a total of 50k dps on the kill)
Noreia and Sheeper came in. (did a total of 37.5k on EVERY enrage wipe on sunday and tuesday)
TL, Hubbah, Jesung and Grimnar did their part. Hal did 2k less than Whytee did on kill, but thats a non-issue.
No, No... I will seriously not agree with the "EVERYONE needs to turn every stone"-philosophy here. This is a burn boss. This is not anything but a dps-check.
Fix it, or do not join for this raidencounter. Simple. Dont expect TL and Hubbah for making up for i.e. Noreias lack of dps. Thats just wrong!
Ok.
Well from my hunter POV.
Ill take try 6 as well seeing TL made his comparison on that one.
Like i was trying to say this does not reflect anything because im comparing a 3:30 fight with a 6 min one ( i can use 50% of the cooldowns / etc / dots do more dmg over time / aimed shot does less dmg etc etc ).
but here we go.
On the kill i had an uptime of Serpent sting of 79.9% and on the wipe i had an uptime of 99.2% so a big increase in DPS.
Even on the uptime of my piercing shots i went from 83.2% to 90.1% and there a big increase as well.
I did have to move alot more due to the mistakes that were made so abit less dmg on my steady shots & aimed shots.
As far as i can tell i was not missing any important buffs.
All with all a dps increase of approx 600 DPS(e)
Quote from: hubbah;337554Ill take try 6 as well seeing TL made his comparison on that one.
Typo was edited to 5 before you post, Try 5 was what I worked with - an enrage try.
Quote from: Azunai;337551Handy to have a buffbot outside for fights like these perhaps? To chuck us that int if we don't have a mage in the kill team?
Buffbots no longer work. Changed in a patch about a year or more ago.
Ok.
droped 1.4k dps(e) and thats for 30% due to unlucky procs with flaming arrow and less piercing shots ( RNG ).
And for 70% due to less chim shots, probably due to moving around alot ( less focus ).
This is the reply on your comment TL
Ah. This is where I play the "Don't blame me I've been on a break" card ;-)
So, all in all.
More dps, less mistakes and lets kill it thursday so we have sunday & half of teusday for beth.. :)
Yeah I know, my dps sucks, Slush! Sorry for that! Movement takes away a lot of dps from an enhanced shaman, I have no instant jump spells to cover larger distances.
Ofc I am out of melee through movement because my fast form is the wolf! In three of the trials I ran all the way back to the ranged who did not move at all/very much when we were linked.
Two times I got debuffed by the linked person, and when I noticed, I had already passed two clean players and debuffed them! Ofc, my fault!
I tried my very best and if that was not enough than replace me! Maybe I am not such an excemptional player as others in RGT.
So thanks guys for putting up with me and sorry for the spoiled evening!
Quote from: Noréia;337578Yeah I know, my dps sucks, Slush! Sorry for that! Movement takes away a lot of dps from an enhanced shaman, I have no instant jump spells to cover larger distances.
This is one of the fights where we dont have to move constantly. Nothing to be sorry about, just fix it. If you are having trouble fixing it by yourself.. Get help. If you cant fix it after u got help. Dont sign up for this boss.Quote from: Noréia;337578Ofc I am out of melee through movement because my fast form is the wolf! In three of the trials I ran all the way back to the ranged who did not move at all/very much when we were linked.
Two times I got debuffed by the linked person, and when I noticed, I had already passed two clean players and debuffed them! Ofc, my fault!
Figure out why you got debuffed. If it wasnt your fault, it doesnt matter. You being debuffed does not give you dps decrease.
Quote from: Noréia;337578I tried my very best and if that was not enough than replace me! Maybe I am not such an excemptional player as others in RGT.
Well, this is entirely up to officers. But both you and sheepy should seriously consider if you are good enough for these fights if you are unable to make 22k+ dps. Anything less is being carried (This is entirely my opinion, no officers opinion).Quote from: Noréia;337578So thanks guys for putting up with me and sorry for the spoiled evening!
No comment.
Last:
You gotta watch some videos mate, seeing you get killed all the time on Ragnaros Phase 3 makes me wonder if you understand the mechanics. You Ankh and you get battleressed.. You still die. Im (and this is still my opinion) thinking that you're spending NO time gettting updated on mechanics, and that you expect to be spoonfed the info over and over. And if you couldn't tell... Yes, im frustrated. Really frustrated about this... I raid 6-7 hours a week and progression is currently close to zero.. 6-7 hours is all I have, when TL AGAIN goes over the tactics for a fight to help you understand.. Im tapping my fingers. And Im starting to tap too hard. And too often... And yes, Im deeply frustrated.
Well! Guess I should not join heroic raids anymore! After about a dozen first kills with RGT in which I ofc always had to be carried through!
Everything said, Slush!
Thats not the way to respond to a teammates critisism.
If you now told me:
-You do spend atelast 10 minutes on Mr. Robot, Training Dummies, on reading up on roatations, preffered talents and glyphes every week.
-You do read boss tactics before a fight.
-How to react when a meteor is fixated on you.
-TL does not spoonfeed boss you tactics every raid.
I would have told you "Well, so I am wrong, not the first time".
But you didnt...
I dont want to get in the middle of the finger pointing etc.. but ist it abit harsh to just decline all raids?
If you need help with your rotation or whatever im always willing to read up abit and try to be of assistance.
Your fireshock had an uptime of 47% while other enhance shammy's in the Top 200 have an uptime of close to 100%.
Same for firetotem thingie.
And if your saying the dps drops like a brick because you have to move out of melee range then we could see how we can improve that part.
There are things that can be improved to your playstyle and / or rotation just like it can be approved in mine, no need to just call it quits..
Quote from: hubbah;337613I dont want to get in the middle of the finger pointing etc.. but ist it abit harsh to just decline all raids?
Well, you just did. So here we go...
Quote from: hubbah;337613If you need help with your rotation or whatever im always willing to read up abit and try to be of assistance.
He didnt ask for help. He did however decline all raid invites and go... "Everything said". He is NOT getting any sympathy from me doing it this way. He should already be uptodate on mechanics of his class that ha has been playing for... well, one year? Two years?
Quote from: hubbah;337613And if your saying the dps drops like a brick because you have to move out of melee range then we could see how we can improve that part.
Melee in this fight (Baleroc heroic) know how to move... No wait... The ones who have been paying attention know how to move. Its all in videos, its all been explained on TS.
AND in addition to this... Didnt you read this thread? Ice Hawk had a wall of text that explained how this works... Just yesterday! Did you see Noreia ask about this? Did you see him commenting on this? Do you see any interest at all from him discussing mechanics in these forums?
Quote from: hubbah;337613There are things that can be improved to your playstyle and / or rotation just like it can be approved in mine, no need to just call it quits..
Well, I think we have to respect his decision? Its not up to you how other people manage critisism/advices, is it? If someone feels like they are not able to do their part.. Why keep struggling?
This thread is here to help us with tactics on the Baleroc fight and has been going further off topic in the last few posts (yes we need more dps but that point was made at least a page ago).
Can we please get this thread back on topic!
I don't know what is wrong with you slush!
I am doing this game for fun. I don't know about you.
Fingerpointing you do well!
Guess how often I had to wait for you because your stupid internet connection wasn't working! Why didn't you fix it faster? Don't care? This was going on for month!
Guess how often the tank died because you werent able to keep it up! Did you not read on tacticts?
Guess how often I died because you did not heal enough! Did not follow the fight flow?
A blaiming contest does not lead anywhere.
Your "fix it or make tracks" criticism is not helpful at all, it just makes people angry.
To tell that I have to put my fire totem up 100% is something else. That is constructive criticism. Btw Hubbah, I know that! Thats why I learned to use Power Auras to have a better interface to deal with that. Not perfect yet.
Iam working on that intensively.
Yday I just cancelled all raids as I am out for some time, but I decided not to give in to your mobbing slush. So it has been corrected.
And this is my last post to this!
No need to attack Slush on his playing style & internet connection here.
As far as i know hes mistakes are at a minimum and he can not help having a shitty internet connection :D gnegne.
I do agree with slush but i think its someting we can work at as a team, thats all i was trying to say.
@ whitey: where should we adress problems like this then? The only thing we are trying to do is pinpoint the problems we are having and try to resolve them before we wipe another night on a boss we know we can do eazy. Maybe the way slush handled it is not the best way but the point still stands! :)
If i was the one that was on the lower side of the dps meter ( what is gonna happen next patch if i have to believe mmo champ & elitest jerks ) i would do Everything to fix it and if that would not be possible i would find another way to contribute to the maximum on a progress raid.
I know not everyone thinks the same as me on that subject.
I did not attack Slush for his playing style! I tried to make clear by examples that blaiming doesn't help!
Quote from: Whitey;337616This thread is here to help us with tactics on the Baleroc fight and has been going further off topic in the last few posts (yes we need more dps but that point was made at least a page ago).
Can we please get this thread back on topic!
This is a FINAL warning to all those involved in the flaming at the moment. This is a tactic thread, not a vendetta thread, only post to talk about tactics for this boss.
If you have issues with personnel take it to a DMR Council member so that we can handle it - we might be more aware of things than you think and usually know more than you due to us having access to privy information. Do not run a personal hate campaign not matter how justified you feel. DMR Council will handle all personnel issues, please let us do our job and not try to run your own vigilante action.
Right thats enough of the finger pointing and sillyness.
The officers spend alot of time understanding whats going on in the raids and monitoring peoples performance. First lets put where we are in perspective. When we kill Beth and are faced with raggy we will be looking head on at a server 1st. No guild has killed on 10 man. The point im making is we are killing bosses that require a min performance level. This is high end stuff that requires preperation from everyone. This boss has a simple enrage kill in 6 mins or wipe. If dps cant hit the amount needed then we must bench them. Its a harsh but understandable fact. Its nothing personal its just plain old number crunching. Same would go for me if I could not heal enough to keep the tank alive
Ill fire back to TL's post we "all" can make improvements some have more improvemet room than others.
What we need to remember is raiding time is limited and its takes a massive commitment from everyone to turn up. To have that time slip away on needless wipes causes frustration. We can usualy keep this to a min but as the bosses get harder we are seeing people(more than one) max-out on what they are capable of. As this happens we sort it out case by case.
If we want to help in a constructive way then have a pick thu the logs for any obvious fixes
As the problem is low DPS, I would encourage everyone to take another critical look at their character and rotations.
I took a little trip down MMO-champion yesterday. And lo and behold, I found some cool new info:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/998157-The-quot-Fix-my-DPS-quot-Thread?p=14238198&viewfull=1#post14238198
I then took this information to the training dummy and spent ~30-45 minutes working the new rotation, until it's part of my system. I went from ~17-18k to 20-21k DPS selfbuffed, and I haven't even worked in my cooldowns. Took me about an hour alltogether, not including the forum posting.
I'm sure this kind of stuff sounds like a broken record by now, but we're behind our potential (just look up some Baleroc H10 kills, people reach 30k on average on quite a lot of kills) and this is the only way to fix it. And we definetly should, as DPS requirements for the future (until MoP at least) will only be higher. Would be a shame to run into a block midway through Dragon Soul because of this :-(
thats a pretty big step up torgen, nice! :D
Quote from: Azunai;337737I went from ~17-18k to 20-21k DPS selfbuffed
Sweet! Go Go. Guys. Read it up.
For this particular fight, I want to say.. The tactics are smooth as silk. We had 1 single try yesterday, and we went straight to enrage timer. That is very nice.
-Movement in and out of Crystal was best.
-Tank managing CDs and staying alive while healers building stacks were best.
-Healers not letting anyone die was also cool.
Now; I want to ask... Is there any particular reason to why Grimnar has to take 20 stacks?
I know Jas is building stacks through TLs soaking... but does he also build up through Grimnars 20? Or would it be cool to start "normal" soaking procedure on 2nd Crystal to maximize Grimnars dps aswell?
I finish my stack build and move onto the tank after TL ........ I thought it was Puja gaining the benefit from Grim going upto 20
One point I think we need to work on is closing up the gaps. We're starting to spread out way too much, despite nagging from me that we are too far apart. If we stand too far apart everything takes longer to do and we lose more dps time. We had 1m HP or so left last night on the single pull we had, so less movement combined with decent dps will probably nail it for us (again).
Or is it time to build up a new strat with 2-healing and 3-soaking?
We did the 2 healing and it looked like it was doable for us, i'm sure others have 2 man healed it but i found it a slight mindset change with the decision on when and how much to heal a much harder problem to solve - always bearing in mind the blue mana bar being so easy to blow .....but with practice i'm sure it's a go'er - i must apologise for a few silly mistakes......bad decisions and cock-ups on my part.
The crystal rotations were well handled by the dps and we were well ahead of the enrage so all fine there.
It is obviously subject to RNG as a debuffed healer at any point makes it almost certain of losing one or more during the debuff timer........ when i got debuffed i found it just impossible as the stacks built to keep the person up.
I must apologise to Jesung........his "i'll be alright, i'll not die" did make me think at the time "there's confidence"......... resulting 5 secs later in a small gnome corpse on the floor that was entirely my fault ( little people should need less healing surely ;) )......and it wasn't intentional !!! ;)
Changes for me from the 3 man heal team -
1. Starting a couple of weeks ago i changed my stack building rotation on TL from Healing Surge to Riptide, HW,HW,HW ( the 3rd only if TL was less than max HP as it is of course not boosted in speed or crit )......it is nice and cheap mana wise ( me ending up with 90%-100% mana and 65-75 stacks by the time TL's crystal despawned instead of 35-45% and 75-85 stacks )........which worked fine on with 3 of us healing him............with 2 healers this i quickly found was not enough and switched to ramping it up as TL's stacks built and switching in a GHW instead for one or both of the boosted heals......end result was a little more mana used but a live soaker at the end...........the downside to not using Healing Surge being that i find i am 10-15 stacks less at the same point.......but, with 2 manning it the extra 60% mana remaining is more than needed. And normally i am not straight on the tank and there is plenty of time to top off some more stacks on the next soakers ( i personally don't need Grimnar to go to 20 stacks - happy enough if he drops out earlier and someone else takes a few more stacks at the end )
2. People 3-stacking saved some of the strain but this of course requires more coordination for the dps doing the mad crystal dance and relies on not having a bad roll of the debuff......this definitely helps as it requires less of the costly higher rated heals.
3. Mana regen - should we try this again we should go with an optimised 10 that gives the most options for mana regen.........later on ( when we hit 23% i think at wipe ) the mana pool was empty, potion used and Mana totem on CD, i was scraping by on regen alone which really is not enough..........we didn't have a great chance to try Jas's plan to swap over healing roles at 50%....maybe that is also part of the solution. I recently spec'd in Telluric Currents as many of the hc's are pushing the boundaries on the healer team regarding mana usage ( especially early on as we learn the fight )...but this ofc relies on having some time to dps which is something that 2 man healing provides little of.
4. Biggest lesson - absolutely no mistakes or mis-timing allowed EVER on this one in 2 man ( well...not quite true 100% as when people are low stacked by the debuff you can make small mistakes, but as it builds you gotta get it right as we're only 1 healer at that point + splash aoe healing from the other healer )........it really is like walking a tightrope without a safety net....one mistake and you're doomed........this is something i need to work on, not sure if it was the realisation as we did a few that little mistakes were deadly but i was really concerned about having mana for the whole fight so had a conflict going on that i was looking for the balance for and did not always find....so i made more than my normal level of mistakes as we went on. Most of this is i think just the confidence from practice and whilst paying attention to mana consumption not let it get in the way to the extent that i delayed a needed heal for second too long as i did several times tonight whilst trying to find the balance between mana-efficiency and keeping the target alive.
Still not sure why we trying to 2 heal this but ok.
From my point of view we can eazy kill it with 3 healers and avoiding the ( like niel so awsomely said ) "cockups".
I died twice while soaking crystals in the kill ( to max 13 stacks ) and incidia / gnome died far before the enrage timer as well.
Thats Alot of dps your missing and it would let us kill the boss eazy before the enrage timer.
I would say instead of changing the tactic we should finetune the one we have now. I know it would take a pretty good group due to dps requirments but we should be able to do it.. Dragon soul is around the corner and will require more dps then this.. :)
Quote from: hubbah;337951From my point of view we can eazy kill it with 3 healers
I think to understand why we tried 2 healing the fight you need to review the word 'eazy'. Eazy it has not been. We've singularly failed to re-kill Baleroc with a 3 healer approach, regularly hitting the enrage with not enough DPS having been done to kill the boss. So it is the lesser of two evils and Council wanted to establish whether or not the healing was solid enough to handle a 2 heal approach which would mitigate any dps risks. Two healing it is more normal than our 3 healer approach, just for the record and I think we can do it, but it is a slightly different emphasis than we have had to date.
Bottom line is that if we 3 heal it we theoretically avoid more deaths, but we place a very much greater strain on the DPS and we all need to hit mid-twenty-k dps. Last night we hit 160k rdps (cf 166k rdps on our first kill), with our average well over as you can see from the below table. Torgen's DPSe is showing lower as he died mid-fight. (so much for 3 healers being safer (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/j6tmoy8iqicl6lzo/deaths/?s=5632&e=6005), he died due to lack of healing whilst he soaked a crystal! :P).
Name|DPS|DPS(e)
Grimréápér| 27851.3| 27302.1
Teaell| 26371.9| 26022.0
Grimnar| 25605.2| 25311.2
Hubbah| 23273.6| 22595.4
Incéndia| 23676.7| 20150.6
Torgen| 26877.7| 19865.3
This achieved the kill 12 seconds after the enrage. If we can deliver these or higher levels of dps each week then we continue to 3 heal it, but having spent what seems like an age trying to re-kill Baleroc and failing due to insufficient dps we thought it was worth trying the more normal 2-heal approach.
Ok, thats clear i understand why we switched to 2 man healing now.
Let me explain the "eazy" part in my first post.
If none of the dps died that we had in yesterday and we would have killed it well before the enrage timer.
I was around Grim's dps the whole first part of the fight just up to where i died the first time, after that i still was around 3rd place and then died again.
Just this is a dps loss of like 2 million, Torgen & incidia ( 3 million ) died as well resulting in alot more dps lost, due to this we had less soakers and people needing to move more often.. resulting in more dps loss. ( see the try before the kill and check me and torgen. )
All im trying to say is that without people dieing on soaking crystals this is a kill within our reach every week without having to stretch to healers to the absolute max :)
We had a chat about our dps, and yesterday was the first time for us to try out our new rotations during a raid.
Torgen and myself where both getting used to a new rotation and both had an dps increase.
Quote from: Ice Hawk;337956Torgen and myself where both getting used to a new rotation and both had an dps increase.
That's excellent news, we need the DPS to carry us through heroics and T13 content, so the numbers we saw last night are where we need to be. Great to hear new rotations are bringing more to the party! :thumbsup:
Have to say I'm not feeling that comfortable with the new rotation yet and it wasn't always optimal - was ragestarved a lot since I keep hitting that too tempting Heroic Strike button. Combined with feeling inconfident with execution of tactics (this was my first HC Baleroc attempt of any serious length), I was a little tense last night. If my dps was an increase from before, I couldn't tell, as I don't have reliable numbers for Baleroc HC. I have to say I was aiming for more than the 26k I did to be frank ;-)