PTR
Live video
http://www.icy-veins.com/warmaster-blackhorn-detailed-strategy
http://25man.com/dragon-soul/warmaster-blackhorn
TLDR version:
2 tanks
3 healers
5 dps
This fight is about the raid absorbing the damage done and keeping up with adds. Damage not absorbed will be taken by the ship. When the ship dies, we wipe.
P1 Add control
P2 Execution
P1:
Twilight Elites Redblade - frontal cleave + stackable DOT
Twilight Elite Slayers - mild physicla damage + stackable DOT
-both can Blade Rush (designates a player's area for high damage to be done and those inbetween also get hit, so MOVE!)
Twilight Barrage - Pink swirly - stack in it and share damage
Twilight Onslaught - again stack on it and share damage
Twilight Drakes - harpoons
Twilight Sappers - spanwon deck and rush to bridge to explode, kill
After 3 waves P2 begins and you fight Blackhorn & mount (Goriona)
Goriona
- 30k twilight flames (shareable damage)
Blackhorn
- sunder
- Disrupting Roar (60-80k physical damage to all, plus 8 second silence)
- Shockwave (100k frontal cone with 4 second stun)
-Vengeance increases his damage by 1% for each 1% HP he has lost
P1 Prios:
Arrange to soak all Barrage (?2 groups in ranged)
Ranged: Sappers > Drakes
Melee; Sappers > Elites
P2 Prios:
Ranged: Goriona
Melee: Blackhorn
I reckon it's very important we do as they say in the vid, near the end: Focus on the part *you* have to play individually, and it should be very doable.
i heard the people from fatboss say that they ignored the sappers because the dmg the do on the ship is minimal and they focused on all other adds..
Maybe this is someting we can look into?
Quote from: hubbah;339067i heard the people from fatboss say that they ignored the sappers because the dmg the do on the ship is minimal and they focused on all other adds.. Maybe this is someting we can look into?
Yep I noticed that too, but I think I would note that the Fatboss PTR guide was a month earlier than the L2R version, so the fight might have been tuned in the mean time to mean that the Sappers do need to be handled properly. The tooltip says 250k explosion from a Sapper, the later L2R video says 20% of the ship's HP. Only way to find out is to try I guess.
Handy macro for DK tanks to be cast only when the Sapper comes out of his smoke bomb and starts running towards the bridge. Probably worth testing stuns etc too.
#showtooltip Death Grip
/cleartarget
/tar Twilight Sapper
/focus
/targetlasttarget
/cast [@focus,exists] Death Grip
/cast [@focus,exists] Chains of IceThe other thing I have read is that the Drakes are a higher priority for ranged dps as they are only in range for a limited duration, so it might be that ranged need to prio the Drake over a Sapper.
cos I can;t help myself, Here's the shortened version:
#showtooltip
/cast [@Twilight Sapper][] Death Grip;
/cast [@Twilight Sapper][] Chains of Ice;
It will only work if you can cast both spells at once.
I've replaced the PTR video on the first post with the Live version. Please watch it as there are a couple of differences.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;3389902 tanks
3 healers
5 dps
2 tanks
2 healers
6 dps
Blade rush animation is much improved so seeing it should not be a problem, likewise AOE animations in general are better.
Not too much difference other than that imo.
The other thing was the priority of Sappers (they have to go down and can't be ignored) and they mention the stuns/slows on them.
Yep, sorry I was working on the assumption they were a prio due to the later PTR video saying 20% HP, so for me I did not see a change!
Summary from tonight:
-ignore little patches, too much hassle ot move into them and they do very little damage on the Ship (we killed with Ship still at circa 56%
-kill Sappers prio, they really do take 20% HP from the ship!
-P2 circle around boss and no more than 15yds from boss (at least 11 yds though!) to make sure you can run out of his cone AOE
Otherwise this fight was pretty easy.
After tonights raid from RGW im kinda lost....We have a good grp who can do great dps...it wasnt shown tonight....
I was ranged but as OS and TL came in as an Alt and we beat every1 on dmg done....this is not right.
I had the easier job of just sticking on the melee adds and when i could the drakes....but what about Tl?.... he was assigned the drakes and still beat all our main raiders and was on top of dps,on his alt.
I messed up and didnt run logs tonight so we cant look at what people were doing,but i spent about 20mins after the raid sorting this (im crap with computers and such)....but we are lacking serious dps....i dont know what it is, do RGW dps'ers have a problem managing things...this fight we have to look out for a few things and people cant cope....
Nuke the melee adds then the drakes....grp up,,nuke the sapper...its not hard. Hanne and Cynba were on top of this and myself. Pals,hermi, sithy ...you need to pull ur fingers out or we are stuck.
Some moaned about gear....im still in 359 gear for 3 of my slots...look at the fight on forums check your rotation if any questions arise ask on forum or ingame....we are a community that helps each other :)
I can only talk for myself and Im not moaning over gear.. gear are not everything.. it is what I do and stand that is more imported. in my case that I have to run after the mobs all over the place. and that "darn" little sapper... and when the melee mobs get to be many, Im kind of corned.. and the sapper.. he get very very close to the doorway many times.. and sometimes when I got there he was pulled by deathgrip and gone... a melee mobs charge got in the way too a couple of times, when im hunting down the sapper. so I do know my faults but still a bit confused how to solve it.. and I guess after i checked a couple of logs, rgt and some others.. that cats arnt the greatest DPSrs in this fight, but still..
I need Grimnar, how do ya do it? help pls :D any specialtrick where to stand who to kill or how or who to dot? could ya give me a pointer or two?
We got to phase 2 once the dps wasn't massively different to the other attempts, therefore there must be something in the kill order. My dps did suck and I will work at it for next time.
I think the grip is a good point Pals. The grip tended to be when the add was about halfway along the ship, so the Sapper got pulled to the very edge of the ship. It might be better to leave Grip until much later and use it as a 'get out of jail free' card when the Sapper is not yet dead. A 5 combo stun from Pals is worth more to DPS than the grip as there is less movement. This is not a criticism of using Grip, but I think we can refine *when* it is used.
(and I bet all those click targeters lost time when the Sapper suddenly moved too!)
....which brings me on to Positioning (I thought about this last night after the raid):
Is there any reason why both melee adds are pulled across to the very edge/side of the boat, opposite the ranged dps first drake target? (melee tended to get pulled to far right of boat, ranged tended to do left drake)
The fight is about accessing different areas of the deck so if you all group on one side then:
-big swirls are sometimes well out of range, leading to extended periods of running (and no dps) to the swirl
-you are less likely to have anyone in range of some of the smaller swirls as you are all grouped on one side
-you are further from the normal Sapper path (he runs down the middle)
-you force all charge damage to go through you melee dps team (charge will not go off the side of the ship, so it has to go through melee)
-it makes it far harder to put the melee adds back to back when you're on a ledge as you have less room to manouvre
If you leave them in the middle and stack them there then people have less distance to run to anything (ie more dps time), more space to avoid charges (360 degrees instead of 180) and more splash damage on both the melee mobs & the sapper.
Imo, the adds land in the middle of the ship, why not kill them there? This then avoids the Grip problem mentioned above and leaves Grip as a 'last resort' safety net for when dps is particularly poor or a stun is missed.
2 ranged dps should be sufficient to handle a drake. So 2 on the left drake, 2 on the right drake. All 4 ranged can burn the melee mobs in the period before the drakes arrive or when they have flown out of range. Multi-DOTing helps here! (e.g. Living Bomb on Drake and both Melee targets). If you want to single target the drakes then that's fine, but 4 ranged should be able to kill a drake before it flies away (so 2 dps on their own should take no more than 2 bites of the cherry to kill a drake).
Ranged should soak a couple of small swirls when they can during their drake dps.
The combination of being closer to any big swirl (thus getting more to soak it and losing less dps time), combined with the HP saved through soaking a few of the smaller swirls along the way will make a substantial difference to the ship's HP imo.
RDPS
BUT, as Switch says, if everyone in the raid is doing 13-16k dps each then you are going to struggle unnecessarily on almost every fight in Dragon Soul.
Logs are unavailable for last night so I cannot make a direct analysis, but as a comparison:
RGT tanks do 15-16k dps each for this fight
RGT dps ALL do between 20-30k dps each for this fight (the majority above 25k dps)
(note for Pals: cats are great for this fight, Grimnar did 25k dps on his last go at it)
Yes RGT has 'better' gear, but not by that much. And tbh when my alt mage can do 21k dps in i381 gear, then you know that gear is not the issue. Take ownership of the dps, work out where you can do better, make sure you are up to date with your theory crafting and using the best talents/glyphs/spec/rotation & addons.
Little addition to TL's post, this is the kill from 3 weeks ago from RGT.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k35lwb9b5nfo3z4i/sum/damageDone/?s=8112&e=8461 (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k35lwb9b5nfo3z4i/sum/damageDone/?s=8112&e=8461)
Quote from: hubbah;342142Little addition to TL's post, this is the kill from 3 weeks ago from RGT.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k35lwb9b5nfo3z4i/sum/damageDone/?s=8112&e=8461 (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k35lwb9b5nfo3z4i/sum/damageDone/?s=8112&e=8461)
Oh god my DPS sucked in that fight compared to everyone else, thanks for showing me that Hubbah :P . Must. Try. Harder. :(
Quote from: Jesung;342144Oh god my DPS sucked in that fight compared to everyone else, thanks for showing me that Hubbah :P . Must. Try. Harder. :(
In your defense, you died really early and your dots kept ticking wich lowers your dps by a few K? :P
Quote from: TeaLeaf;342116(note for Pals: cats are great for this fight, Grimnar did 25k dps on his last go at it)
Yes RGT has 'better' gear, but not by that much. And tbh when my alt mage can do 21k dps in i381 gear, then you know that gear is not the issue. Take ownership of the dps, work out where you can do better, make sure you are up to date with your theory crafting and using the best talents/glyphs/spec/rotation & addons.
yeah I been looking at more logs and I take it back.. cats are suppose to be great.. now Im even more :crying: over my DPS .. but I try to figure it out.. and what all that ya just wrote TL we should be able to get it down.. thanks for putting in time to help us out.. its more like in LFR who you discribe it.. and then I havn´t got any problems to be top of DPS lists.. since the melee mobs are more in the middle and sapper are closer...
To help the little cat out,
Don't be scared if you are sort of at the bottem of the dps list.... a little comforting text:narnar:
Feral druids are the only melee class that didn't got the buffs with 4.3 as the other classes.
So yeah you do lower dps as the other melee (or it should be like that) and for you to know in RGT i am the one with the crappy gear:flirty:
For this fight to help you out: The 2 melee mobs should be tanked together (RGT does is like that) as you know 1 mob spawns earlier then the other 1. What i do is at that point put on one rotation on that mob and then swap to the other one. That is because Torgen is there aswell, who is doing some nice dps and hitting both mobs. This means that the one mob is down quickly and if done correct the other one aint far behind. So far i can remember we mostly just have 1 mob just alive when the new 2 spawn. If we havn't already came to a point that they are already down before new mobs arive.
The charges from the mobs can be a pain and not all of them are avoidable i have to say... It is a bit hard to see the animation on the floor when everyone is doing his healing/dps/tanking. Like a few healing rains and 2 pally's with concentration or how it called, makes it pretty hard to see if there is a charge comming your way. What i do here is staying on the sides of the mobs and away from any raid members.
Also for the pink swirly stuff, the small once don't have prio but torgen and myself try to take one or two if they spawn at the melee mobs. But we take them together not alone.
Sapper and the big swirly one, Here is a thing that we do in RGT. The sapper is a must kill but the pink swirl can be a big pain aswell.
Torgen and myself have done this already a few times and it is a big trust towards our healers, when the big swirl is on the other and of the ship and the sapper is getting close to blow up our ship is that we charge to the sapper and kill it, this means that the group misses two members in the big swirl, that can be painfull.
I think that is sort of how i know the fight :boxing:
thanks oh mighty cat Grimnar :D
One tip if you want to keep the melee adds in place more or less, would be for tanks to stand as such (left and right are the sides of the ship):
| (X)------(Yt)---(Xt)------(Y) |
X is one of the mobs, Xt is the tank for X. Same for Y. They each start the fight on those spots, and taunt their respective mob once it lands. If all goes well this should position them back to back. If you need to move towards a swirl, just make sure you move back to these positions afterwards by backstepping, to ensure the mob stays facing the right direction :-)
We don't specifically use it in RGT but I just thought it up as a nice way to keep them back to back and close to eachother for maximum benefit of cleave etc.
any1 that got some tips for healers?
Yep, for P2: Stand spread in a circle around the boss, with healers on opposing sides. That way, if one happens to get hit by Shockwave, there will still be others who are risk-free.
And dont be afraid to trow in a DG / spiritlink / Tranq in there on the Big swirly fases. The second phase is just a nuke the crap out of the Cow & his drake with the dmg getting higher every 20(or someting ) seconds.
If the healers dont get stunned that phase 2 should be a walk in the park for you :)
Yeah couple times we used raid walls for the big pink swirly crap as we are 2 healing this as we need the extra dps atm....but it makes it quite intensive for phase 1. We need to practise bit more on positioning,rather than running about chasing targets....less time running more dps :)
After looking through the logs this fight is a pain for us when it shouldn’t be really....
Got a few bits from there i want to share..
Sadly i only have 8 fights recorded, after my pc crashed it stopped the logs.
The main issue is our damage being done, we don’t have enough! The melee adds aren’t dying so alot more healing is needed for the tanks. The dragons aren’t going down quick enough,so the ship is taking a shedload of dmg it shouldn’t.
The fights leading up to this people were absolutely smashing the dps! So what is wrong with this fight....Movement? Targeting?...is it too much for people to cope with?....if so we have no chance for the rest of the bosses as there isnt that much movement but we need to swap targets quickly. Especially for DW.
Nims....19.9k dps
Cynba...15.8k
Hanne...20.1k
Sithy....14.8k
Hermi...17.2k
Deri.....12.4k
Pals.....13.4k
Sharp...11.2k
This list is in order of total damage done over 8 fights with Nims being top. Hanne,Hermi you both are doing more dps yet are lower than Cynba and Hermi being lower than Sithy. How so?...
Pals i know you are struggling with this fight,but at least you spoke on TS asking about movement and you have posted asking for help. You have gained 2kdps compared to last week,but still every1 needs to improve, bar the obvious.
We have changed the tactics so there is less movement for the ranged and melee but it wasn’t perfect and this will come with a few more tries. Are people having trouble targeting?...If you are get some macros sorted.
We are currently 2healing this so we can have 1 extra dps for the fight,but still cant pull the dps needed. Obviously it makes it harder for whoever is healing last night it was me and Prenight the week before it was hendrik and prenight and we are struggling.
One thing that will help is moving from Blade Rush!
We took a total of 7,973,457 damage from BR over 8 fights which averages to 996,682 damage per fight! Thats alot of extra healing for 2healers when we are taking alot of raid dmg and tend to have 3 melee mobs up most the time.
4 people’s total damage taken for these fights from BR is above 30% getting hit 2-3 times a fight. I don’t want to name and shame you know who you are! I have spoken in TS about it so did Jas, explain to zoom to max camera range and “look down†on your char....i was getting hit alot in our 1st attempts until i swapped to this.Yes i still get hit but nothing like i was. Its harder for melee i know but ranged don’t really have any excuses. 3 of the 4 above are ranged...
Sorry as its a moan but we need to address what we are personally doing wrong and put it right. Ask on here ask in guild...do your research and then we can pewpew this boss ïŠ
well I think my DPS can be higher if we follow TL:s advice.. and if i get that lazy päls to obey a bit better.. :g:
due to my thinking is not just low DPS its a little of most stuff that need improvment.
and what Grimnar wrote about be a melee in this fight really should be read by everyone too. dont just read ya own class. read up on what all should do. then we can help eachother better.
but I say like ya Switch.. where is the comments that ya read this thread?.. come on RGW. show that ya read all this info ppl take time to write down to help out.
we get so much free info since RGT is ahead of us.. and that they write it down how to do it..
Hopefully the WoL guide I wrote yesterday will help RGW even more as it should allow more people to delve into the logs and help diagnose ways to help everyone improve.
We need more dps on the melee adds, cause if i tank slayer and dreadblade and then deathgrip the sapper then im kind of beaten up by the adds so we need to dps the slayers down first and bring the adds closer to eachother so we can share dots on the targets, Other then that we are fine imo
Looking at our last attempt we had, we did pretty good on dodging the charge and grouping up on the big purple pools.
The problem here was that the ship got destroyed when we were taking down our last wave of adds.
So either we step up our dps a bit more, or we absorb more of the small purple pools. Or maybe a bit of both :) I will certainly try to absorb the small pools a bit more when i have enough HP.
Plus i just respecced to combat wich is much more effective when switching targets all the time.
So imo monday we'll get a few more attempts in, and i'm sure he'll be killed halfway raidnight :)
I try to take the odd little purple pools when I have a personal cooldown available... barkskin ftw
Quote from: Nimsraedian;342470I will certainly try to absorb the small pools a bit more when i have enough HP.
I think if you're running with 2 healers, you'll want to avoid this. Rather, it all seems to point to an overall lack of DPS. There's only so much you can solve with workarounds until they become more of a strain, and this is one thing.
That's not to say you shouldn't dodge all those things. Of course you should.. but soaking more pools to prevent the ship from dying is not a solution. It won't make the fight easier since it will very likely reduce your dps output, making the fight take longer, which means more swirls, which again means a dead ship. In a way it's dodging the real issue: a lack of overall DPS. From what I read here, that seems to be the only thing you'll need to fix, and he'll hit the deck (quite literally) for sure!
The problem is that running to absorb small swirl damage lowers the dps even more. Absorb a couple if they happen to be near you sure, but more than that is unnecessary if the dps is at sufficient levels.
Let's try and break this down a bit to see where individual improvement can help. I've compared RGT's last kill (5min42 on Tuesday) with RGW's longest try (3min26 on Wednesday). I've selected the first 3min26 of the RGT fight so that the graphs are comparable and I think this summarises the dps problem.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1152[/ATTACH]
(The green lines are when an add died)
Focus is the issue. Look at the amount of downtime by DPS people! I have extracted tanks, so we're just looking at the melee & ranged dps here, but you can see the focus in the RGT graph and the lack of focus in the RGW graph. You clearly have the burst DPS, you peak almost as high as RGT, but then people are way too slow to pick up the new targets and get back to DPSing. The log page I used for this is here:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d03jefha5i2rj86f/sum/damageDone/?s=11311&e=11517
You can go to the web page I used and click on the RDPS and yourself to get an individual graph of your personal dps versus the raid dps. Where there is a big discrepancy or periods where you are doing nothing then this is seriously bad and you need to figure out what you should be DPSing and how to target it more quickly!
But RGT have so much better gear than RGWFair point, so I also compared how quickly the two waves of adds were killed to see what RGW are capable of when they are focused. Looking at the first wave of adds (2 Drakes, 1 Dreadblade and 1 Slayer) this is what I found:
Wave 1:
RGW Kill Time from Start|Mob|RGT Kill Time from Start
+26 sec|Slayer|
|Dreadblade|+37 sec
+52 sec|Drake 1|
|Slayer|+53 sec
+61 sec|Sapper|
|Sapper|+63 sec
|Drake 1|+63 sec
+67 sec|Dreadblade|
|Drake 2|+73 sec
+79 sec|Drake 2|
This table tells us some important things:
Firstly that RGW is only 6 seconds slower on a wave than RGT, so it is not gear holding you back.
Secondly, that RGT use a different kill order and tend to do more AOE splash damage on the adds, whereas RGW clearly focus down one add the the next. Splash damage or multi-dotting is usually highly beneficial to raid dps so add placement by tanks to maximise melee splash dps is important, as is ranged trying to multi-dot where it is beneficial to your total dps.
So now we know RGW has the DPS, so let's see how quickly the second wave was finished:
Wave 2:
RGW Kill Time from Start|Mob|RGT Kill Time from Start
+169 secs (predicted +143)|Wave 2|+131 sec
Somewhere along the way RGW have lost an additional 26 seconds. If you look at the graph you can see why, it is lack of focus and activity.
Wave 3:
RGW Kill Time from Start|Mob|RGT Kill Time from Start
Log ends @ +195 secs with 1 of 4 mobs dead|Wave 3|+198 sec
By this time the lack of focus means a wipe just into the 3rd wave of adds whereas by maintaining focus and activity levels RGT had finished the third wave at the same time. RGW should finish the 3rd wave at about +216 sec.
I hope this helps explain why RGW is struggling here. Its' not raw dps potential, it's lack of activity. Target quickly, keep DOTs up, maximise splash damage, stay focused, keep active!
79 seconds for the first wave says you can do this fight easily.
I thank you for the analysis of TL ..
I did the same thing .. the point is that the RGW does not have the dps of RGT (or its too slow/no dotted).
we need more time to knock down the 3 waves, and the ship explodes in 70% of cases
I tried an alternative tactic to compensate.
I would like your own opinion .....
I decided to split the raid into 2 groups, melee and tanks near the bow, Ranged to stern.
ranged:
slay a dragon at a time (coordinated via TS and 1 kill every time they are pulled with harpoons), but most important thing, at least 3 must stack on the balls drawn by dragons. to prevent the ship is destroyed.
Melee & TANKS:
do what they usually do, and at least 2 stacks on purple balls.
all stack on the big Twilight bomb
all kill sappers (best way is to make a macro on a button and use associated ultraxion like ability)
/ target sapper
/ cast (to slow / grip spell)
Fingers x for Monday
Quote from: hermioneg;342524.. the point is that the RGW does not have the dps of RGT (or its too slow/no dotted).
we need more time to knock down the 3 waves, and the ship explodes in 70% of cases
I think you missed the point of the post Hermi. The data demonstrates that RGW comfortably have the dps to kill Blackhorn (RGT kill first wave in 73 seconds, RGW in 79 seconds - these are close enough and easily enough dps).
What the timing showed was that after the first wave of adds, whereas RGT maintained focus on the adds and maintained their dps levels, RGW got confused about what to hit and therefore failed to perform at the level they can.
The graphs I posted demonstrate this quite clearly - RGT dps all do damage at the same time, RGW have people's dps going up and down at the same time for no apparent reason. Take a look at your own dps on that fight as an example, there's lots of downtime where you were not actively casting and doing the damage that you and I both know you can do.
The difference between RGT & RGW is that RGT maintained the '73 second dps' on the 2nd & 3rd wave of adds. RGW did well on the first set of adds but then lost focus on the 2nd & 3rd set of adds.
So the dps *is* there in RGW, but people need to have targeted something and be casting on it all the time, not with big gaps.
Go back and look at the graphs I posted. The RGT part shows:
-when adds spawn there is a massive surge in dps and *everyone* is active and generally doing over 20k dps.
The RGW part of the picture shows:
-every single person in RGW can do over 20k dps
-when the adds come RGW get confused about what to do, hence some people doing 40k dps at the same time as someone else is doing 5k dps. That's not gear, that's not having something targeted and pressing the cast button often enough.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1153[/ATTACH]
First Wave of AddsIn the first wave of adds in the RGW log we had:
-everyone doing over 20k dps
-max dps 60k from 2 people
In the first wave of adds in the RGT log we had:
-everyone doing over 20k dps
-max dps 60k from 1 person
Second Wave of AddsIn the second wave of adds in the RGW log we had:
-3-4 people below 10k dps for extended periods
-max dps 50k from 1 person
In the second wave of adds in the RGT log we had:
-everyone doing over 20k dps
-max dps 60k from 1 person
So for the 2nd wave RGT simply repeated what they did in the first wave. What happened to RGW's 1st wave performance? Why are people below 10k dps when the adds are out? That's the bit to fix and it will then give you the kill.Re your strategy suggestionMy concern would be that with trying to get 3 dps into each small swirl will trigger a whole lot of movement, which in turn stops you doing dps, which in turn means the raid takes more damage and more time to kill things, which in turn means the ship takes more damage from for example the 2nd drake whilst you are killing the first. The fastest solution in this fight is to kill the adds, period. RGW did this in 73 seconds and just need to repeat the exact same level of focused dps on the 2nd wave, then the 3rd wave to get the kill. Whether you split dps, multi-dot, AOE or single target is not the major factor. The major factor is people need to be actively dpsing stuff *all* the time which the logs show people in RGW are not doing.
This is the problem for RGW, period. My 2 posts I think sum it up in a nut shell. There's no way that whilst someone is doing 50k dps that 4 others should be under 20k dps and as low as 4k dps. That's pure 'not having a target and not pushing the button'.
Solve the target & button pushing issue and the kill is yours. I can't think of any way to put it more simply for RGW to understand.
i disagree TL....
I am convinced that all try to do their best ..
the problem of low dps (at least in my case) is due to the movements, the first wave is almost stationary, and for this we see high dps.
after the first big twilight all move long to avoid charges, reach the dragons, reach the sappers (or turn to target).
Unfortunately we have little DOT, so the time available for dps on dragons is really limited (i respecc from frost to fire but my dps will be lower, but I ll get dot)
Quote from: TeaLeaf;339181The other thing I have read is that the Drakes are a higher priority for ranged dps as they are only in range for a limited duration, so it might be that ranged need to prio the Drake over a Sapper.
im agree.... (with 2 mages we can help by putting RoF x2 at the door)
and requires coordination of the target on the dragon on TS
I'm not saying people are not trying, but you cannot argue that everyone is reaching their maximum potential when some are doing 50k dps at the same point others are doing just 4k dps. It's illogical to suggest otherwise.
Re Fire spec
Fire spec will not reduce your dps, fire spec is far higher dps than Frost spec, even Blizz say that Frost is deliberately lower dps - that's why you'll not find a single frost mage in a high end raid, it's simply not competitive. Fire spec also allows you to cast whilst moving and has dots, so your dps should be way higher than frost spec which is currently intended as a PVP/cc spec only. I did 21-22k dps on my mage alt with RGW on this exact same fight the other week in fire spec and you have better gear than me, so your dps in fire spec should be even better. The try I looked at you did 13k dps as arcane.
Re Movement
Yes the first group is stationary, BUT: RGW do roughly (within 6 seconds) the same level of dps as RGT for the first wave. RGT are not holding back, so why is RGW dps suddenly so much worse than RGW's for the 2nd wave? You can target and have in range both a ranged target and both melee targets from most places on the deck, I know this as I do it every week on my shadow priest and did the same on my mage when in with RGW. So the only conclusion I can reach is that some ranged are not casting enough. It's only by not casting that your dps can drop as low as 4k in the logs. You might be trying to move too much, but at the same time as someone doing 4k dps another raider was doing 50k dps. It's the spread of dps numbers that create the overall lack of dps. Looking at RGT's log and the dps is much smoother, all dps goes up when targets are there, then all dps drops as targets die. Where is the same smoothness in the RGW log?
RGT ran with 2 DOT classes (aff lock & shadow priest), but you have DOTs from your boom and with fire spec you'll add even more dots. You've also got a ton of AOE in your melee classes within RGW. But y0ou can kill this boss without any DOT classes, so DOTs are not the issue.
I'm not trying to put people down here, I'm just trying to analyse where the performance gains are available to your raid group. The fact that RGT dps lines go up and down at the same time and generally follow each other, whilst RGW's have people going in opposite directions at the same time means that you have some people not reaching their maximum potential - otherwise all the lines would go in the same direction. Check the picture again.
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you're right TL.
and thank you for your analysis.
I noticed that in the RGT kill in this order: dreadblade-> Slayers-> 2 drake, I think is derived from the fact that the melee damage are crazy
RGW in the order becomes: Slayer->-drake> dreadblade-> drake. :g:
we did the first wave at the same RGT time. after this dps goes down , RGT takes 2.10min (from start) to kill 2nd waves and RGW takes 2.50 (with 1 dps died and rebirth) I do not remember if we lost a sapper, but the ship exploded,from the log you see that we are all dead after the twilight onslaught.
I wanted to ask ..what percentage remains the vessel in RGT?
for 40 seconds more on the second wave is possible that the ship will explode at the beginning of the third?
in RGT you kill the 2 dragons at once or the second is harpooned 2 times ?
excuse the questions, but I would like to understand where we wrong (as well as in DPS :sad:)
We usually end Phase 1 with about 30ish % left on the ship, maybe a bit less. Sometimes a sapper spawns after P2 has already started. You *have* to kill that one if your ship is on low health or you're still screwed. I believe the thought was originally that it doesn't do dmg anymore, but it does, I specifically checked last time. It might be though that the ship won't die, even if it reaches 0% when in P2. But that's a bit beside the point here :-)
In RGT we don't have a kill order. The fight is prio-based, really. We kill the melee adds (I just pick one and hit it, don't really care if its a Slayer or Dreadblade). If a drake pops up, the designated ranged take it down and resume melee adds afterwards. If a sapper pops up, it is DPS prio. I would argue here that our melee can take care of one just fine as long as it gets stunned and slowed, but generally, you don't want it to hit the ship so you kill it fast.
As far as I'm aware, we kill the drakes in 1 go every time.
From what I can read so far, you are doing the tactics just fine, perhaps a bit too much of it. I have to side with TL here and say that the only thing you have to improve in order to nail this (and every future fight) is to sort out the low DPS.
If in the same situation player X is doing 25k DPS and player Y 15k DPS with a gear difference that's marginal at best, it means that player Y is physically not pressing their buttons fast enough and/or doesn't know what rotation to use on their spells.
It has *nothing* to do with your tactics at this point, because with the right DPS, what you guys are doing will simply work. No ammount of tactical workarounds are going to make up for your lack of DPS in this fight. Not tanking the adds in 1 spot, not focussing everything you have on drakes or whatever else you may come up with, IF your DPS remains at the level it is now. You are fighting against time in the form of the ship's health. You can only stretch that so far, because the ship is always taking damage, even if you soak every swirl both small and big. The only way to prevent the ship from exploding is to kill the dragons in time.
Unfortunately, improving DPS is something that people have to do individually, and it's something that is hard to teach. You can tell someone what gems/glyphs/talents/gear to use, but after that, it is up to them to execute the right rotations fast enough. The only way you can really influence that (other than pointing out flaws via logs) is to sit next to them and watch them physically press their keys on the keyboard.
Oh, and there's no need to excuse for the questions. This kind of talk is always good and it would help if everyone in a raidgroup would commit to it, because the graph shows the majority of people are lacking. So definetly kudo's for asking questions :-)
Rgw do stumble on bosses and ultraxion was the same. For my part I am slow to adjust dunno why, but I love the challenge and together we will do it. Rgt is a blessing without the back up and support we would have folded, there is also to some degree a curse part from rgt, like it or not they are up there high in realm rankings raid 3 nights and success breeds success I would love to emulate that success with rgw and one day maybe we will ....
Finally got this MF down! GJ RGW!
Much better dps,but still room for improvement after looking at logs.
Better movement,clearer calls,better dps....a kill....take note from it :)
Nice! Huge congratulations! :-)
Great work RGW, knew you could do it! :thumbsup::dmw::cheers:
Like i said yesterday, Gratz guys, girls & Switch. Well deserved :)
3 healers 2 tanks 2 sick melee and 3 ranged so we remember
Yay, gratz us! Gotta say sorry for some silly deaths tho, & 1 funny one (*cough* leap of faith :narnar:)
Yeah that leep of faith was a strange 1....what have you done to upset prenight lol :P