Dead Men Walking

Icy Veins Strategy
http://www.icy-veins.com/warmaster-blackhorn-detailed-strategy

Bump for this, it's up after Hagara so it could be next week.

If you have not got Mirror of Broken Images (Tol Barad) then now might be a good time to get it.

125 tol barad tokens... this just makes me want to cry..

Quote from: hubbah;344854125 tol barad tokens... this just makes me want to cry..

I second this.

Quote from: TeaLeaf;344852If you have not got Mirror of Broken Images (http://www.wowhead.com/item=62471) (Tol Barad) then now might be a good time to get it.

....and as of tonight we know we really would like to have them equipped for this fight - there's one heck of a lot of soaking to be done for it so let's get that trinket!

i looked a few videos of this and seems like theres 4 big swirlies, before boss lands. how to raid wall all of them no idea =)
i think whytee whit hes 2min dg cooldown can take first and last of them. hals dg take number 2. 3rd was the one which killed us but the logs also sho that we did all ready have peeps dead before that. we never took the 3rd whit full team.

Quote from: microid;345999i looked a few videos of this and seems like theres 4 big swirlies, before boss lands. how to raid wall all of them no idea =)
i think whytee whit hes 2min dg cooldown can take first and last of them. hals dg take number 2. 3rd was the one which killed us but the logs also sho that we did all ready have peeps dead before that. we never took the 3rd whit full team.

That's kinda where the trinket comes in, it is essentially a raid wall and only has a 1 min CD so it could be used on 2/4 if not all of them. Also we have 2 DG's, Tranq, spirit link, rallying cry.

I don't think the big swirls are the problem tbh. Providing we stay alive from other damage, it's a matter of going in and popping a raidwall. The real issue I think are the small ones. When we wiped on 3rd swirl last night, ship was at 2%. So catching all the small ones is going to be the deal I reckon, and we should probably use the trinket for that part methinks.

Quote from: hubbah;344854125 tol barad tokens... this just makes me want to cry..

It looks like many of us are working towards the trinket now, so if you dont know how... You need 125 Tol Barad Commendations (http://www.wowhead.com/currency=391).

This should be pretty quick to get.. but you need to be exalted.

72 tokens here now, will be a few more days until 125, but hopefully not more than 5-7 days depending on TB wins and whether or not I am about to take up the extra quests.

running it every day as well, so should be next week..

Without TB wins, and doing the q's when TB is in Alliance control every day, 125 tokens takes 10 days. Coincidentally, you should also reach exalted from 0 neutral rep in 10(,5) days, as the q's give ~4k rep in total per day, and you need 42k to get to exalted from 0 Neutral. Not too bad then.

Quote from: Azunai;346034Without TB wins, and doing the q's when TB is in Alliance control every day, 125 tokens takes 10 days.

You can get up to 18 per day.

Peninsula: 5-6 dailies (but still 6 Commendations)

AND

If Alli has TB:
The "usual" 3 dailies (Croc skin, Problim and 12xHorde NPCs)

AND

D-block (3xdailies) OR  Cursed Depths (3xdailies) OR The Hole (3xdailies)
When Alli wins TB, you get one of these hubs (picked randomly for our faction). If we win again... it gets picked randomly again.

AND

Weekly Tol Barad win. 3 Commendations.

From bits im picking up on this ... 2 teams of small pink soakers, You dont have to get them all 2/3 soaked by each team thu the first phase is enough. Dont soak if you have even a single stack of the debuff.  Unconfirmed repots of enough dps lets you ignore them :sideways:

Dreadblade to die first as the cleave can be an issue

Some recomend blowing hero as soon as the 3rd drake is dead... it lets you wipe up the last drake and melee adds and helps the transition

P2 is ment to be a bit more forgiving for dps but we will see the 4 min enrage sounds quite tight ....

Quote from: Slush;346049You can get up to 18 per day.

If Alli has TB:
The "usual" 3 dailies (Croc skin, Problim and 12xHorde NPCs)

AND

D-block (3xdailies) OR  Cursed Depths (3xdailies) OR The Hole (3xdailies)
When Alli wins TB, you get one of these hubs (picked randomly for our faction). If we win again... it gets picked randomly again.

I count these as 1 group, then the Peninsula as the other.

I tend to log on once a day for these, can't be bothered to check if we have TB every 3 hours xD Besides, I need the 10 days for rep anyway ;-)

loggin now.. we got TB

Next TB battle at 15:20 GMT (16:20 Game Time).  Cya then.

Watch a lot of this guys vids - officers might find something they can take from the fight...

[video=youtube;sH8DDi9C55M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH8DDi9C55M&list=UUAIz7Y435Tf5wgTBARRcqIQ&index=3&feature=plcp[/video]

I like 2 bits from that video: (1) that they had never been into P2 and had not planned it and yet killed the boss and (2) the positioning of the corners which mean that if people group in those areas then they will automatically be looking 'into' the deck area and therefore are less likely to miss an onslaught or a barrage.

Been thinking some about this fight, so here goes:

Twilight Onslaught (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=109226)
This hits for 1.2m damage shared amongst the ship & players within 10 yards.  We need to aim for about 4 barrages in P1, so a quick table of damage taken either by each player or the ship depending on the number of soakers:

(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/oimg?key=0AgpVmSSOvlTsdHJfRGdZWHY4YjRTVVcyTzZOMmsxRkE&oid=4&zx=33ww0aod9pd)
The key thing here is to notice that there are diminishing returns to the number of people soaking each Onslaught.  If 9 people soak then the ship and we take 120k damage each.  If we struggle to get 10 people to soak we only reduce the damage to ourselves and the ship by 11k to 109k and lose a large amount of DPS or healing in the process through movement.   By the time you add in a CD (like a raidwall) for each Onslaught then there is not a lot of damage being taken by players (e.g. 87k with 10 people soaking under a DG) so we should not beat ourselves up if we soak an occasional barrage with only 8 or 9 instead of say 10.

The second thing to extract from that graph is that an onslaught can be soaked by a relatively few people with bigger cooldowns.  For example, if a fire mage & a shadow priest soaked (cauterise & dispersion) then the ship would only take 400k damage and we'd have 8 other people still doing DPS/healing/Barrage soaking and have saved a raidwall for later use.  As the ship would take 120k damage anyway even with 9 people soaking, then it's a difference of only 280k damage, which is the same as missing just TWO Barrages. (9 people soaking as the DG tank would remain outside as DG does not reduce the caster's damage)

Perhaps aiming to soak the 1st Onslaught with a Mage/ShPriest, 2nd with a DG, 3rd with a DG and 4th with Mage/ShPriest  would allow us better DPS, healing and soaking elsewhere during the 1st & 4th soaks.  It also saves us tranq/PWB/AM/Hymn/RC/Spiritlink for later use.

Now clearly if the ship takes 400k damage when only 2 people soak with it then that's bad, but compare it to other sources of ship damage as 1xtwo-soaked Onslaught is the same as 2 missed Barrages!

Twilight Barrage (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=109203)
Barrage deals 140000 Shadow damage to players within 5 yards of the point of impact.  If no players are struck, the ship suffers the full 140k.  The key difference here is that we need to get someone into every Barrage.  

(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/oimg?key=0AgpVmSSOvlTsdHJfRGdZWHY4YjRTVVcyTzZOMmsxRkE&oid=8&zx=s17v2rv7tu3a)  
From this we can see that we get some basic rules about soaking:

• with 0 debuff stack you can PAIR soak without a CD (140k damage)
• with 1 debuff stack you can SOLO soak if you have a CD (e.g. Mirror) (148k damage)
• with 1 debuff stack you can PAIR soak without a CD if on full HP (140k damage)
• with 2 debuff stacks you can PAIR soak with Mirror (148k damage)

I've ignored solo soaking with dispersion/cauterise as this is likely to be used on Onslaught soaking.

I believe that Barrage soaking will be the key to us getting through this fight.   Ultimately missing a few Barrages will hurt us more than getting fewer people into an Onslaught.  So the key will be to minimise the Barrages by (a) soaking and by (b) not allowing them to be cast in the first place.

Killing Drakes faster means fewer Barrage casts and this is where I think we need to focus.

We should consider tanking the Slayer under the left tethered drake for cleave (Leggs might be excellent for this as it's equivalent to his Claw damage at Zon'ozz) whilst the DPS burn down the right drake first.

Either way, all DPS need to burn the first drake down as a priority (whilst the Slayer is tanked under the other drake) and NEVER let the second Drake break its tether and fly off to continue casting Barrages unimpeded.  The Dread & Slayer are relatively minor irritations in the scheme of things and should go down as a second priority (Dread then Slayer)

In terms of soaking, I like the idea of marking the 4 corners of the deck and assigning 8 people to those areas so that they are facing in to 'see' the Barrages.  
If we soak Onslaughts as above we'll get way higher DPS on the drakes in the 1st & 4th Onslaughts.  
Less running for Onslaughts means better Barrage soaking whilst we DPS drakes down and dead drakes means less Barrages.

We can then save Heroism for Goriana.

I think it would help to have a Weak Auras code to let people know when it is safe to Solo soak or Pair soak with or without a Mirror.  I'll try to think about how best to do this as it might need to be done in 2 or 3 strings to satisfy the rules.

Final thought:   Bane of Havoc on Goriana as he flies in Jesung.  It will help hugely in P2.

Anyway, back to work for a bit now I guess.

that barrage damage cant be true i have 160k hp whit raid buffs and it will kill me if i solo soak. that damage from wowhead must be normal version damage. i think it more close to 200k. and also it seems to be shadow dam and we have a 24% resistance for that on. so it must be alot more than 140k.

if i understand the how the barrage works it will hit the ship always will we soak it or not we will just reduce the dam. lets say the dam is 3 points. 1 soaker means 1,5 to ship and soaker. whit 2 guys its 1 point to each.

It deals 280.000 damage on Heroic 10m, 140.000 on Normal (see the Dungeon Journal in game). So that graph is a bit weird. Then there's a bit of a vaguery in the description of Twilight Barrage vs Twilight Onslaught:

Twilight Barrage:

QuoteThe twilight drakes launch bursts of dark energy at a random location on the deck of the Skyfire. Twilight Barrage inflicts 280.000 Shadow damage, divided evenly among all players within its 5 yard radius. If the attack strikes the deck of the Skyfire without hitting a player, the gunship suffers the full damage instead.

Twilight Onslaught:

QuoteGoriona unleashes a massive blast of dark energy at a random location on the deck of the Skyfire. Twilight Onslaught inflicts 1.200.000 Shadow damage, divided evenly among all players within its 10 yard radius and the Skyfire. If the attack strikes the deck of the skyfire without hitting a player, the gunship takes the full damage.

That is to say, if we're nitpicking the spelling, Twilight Barrage's description implies that the ship takes no damage if the Barrage is soaked by at least 1 person, and the total damage is divided among the soakers equally (but not going to the ship). Now of course, it could just be a typo... However, it leaves me confused as to how much damage is going to who. I've got 4 ways to interpret this:

If there are soakers, ship takes no damage, and the full damage is divided equally among the soakers.
0 people soaking: Ship takes 280.000 damage
1 person soaking: Ship takes 0 damage, player takes 280.000 damage
2 people soaking: Ship takes 0 damage, players each take 140.000 damage

and so on, OR

If there are soakers, ship takes no damage, and half the damage is divided equally among the soakers.
0 people soaking: Ship takes 280.000 damage
1 person soaking: Ship takes 0 damage, player takes 140.000 damage
2 people soaking: Ship takes 0 damage, players each take 70.000 damage

and so on, OR (if it's just a typo)

If there are soakers, ship acts as 1 soaker, and the total damage is divided equally among the soakers + the ship.
0 people soaking: Ship takes 280.000 damage
1 person soaking: Ship takes 140.000 damage, player takes 140.000 damage
2 people soaking: Ship takes 93.333 damage, players each take 93.333 damage

and so on, OR (this is just getting funky, but I'm confused as to which one it really is)

If there are soakers, ship takes half the damage, the other half is divided equally among the soakers.
0 people soaking: Ship takes 280.000 damage
1 person soaking: Ship takes 140.000 damage, player takes 140.000 damage
2 people soaking: Ship takes 140.000 damage, players each take 70.000 damage


I'm tempted to say the 1st option is true.

I updated my numbers on the chart, but they look awfully high.  I solo soaked quite a bit and I'm pretty sure I was not losing that much HP....

Re Barrage, the tooltip is correct.  If someone soaks it the ship takes zero damage.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1238[/ATTACH]

Would it be possible to split the soaker teams to cover 3rds of the boat .... with melee beating away in mid or as TL posted possible still move out a melee add to cleave a drake
At the mo the spit into 4 areas always leaves someone soaking solo unless we take only ranged

Well... if the players instead of the ship take the full damage if they're soaking, then 1 person soaking with 2 stacks (the 1st purple column) is going to take 2x 50% = 100% extra damage, is 280.000 + 100% = 560.000 damage. So that graph seems good now.

As for your ability to solo soak a couple... Maybe you mitigated through Shadow Resistance? If I remember correctly (and if Blizz hasn't changed it since vanilla Ragnaros days) the way resistance works is the more of it you have, the higher your chance of resisting either 25%, 50%, 75% or 100% of the damage (the 1st %'s are made up for the sake of example):

With 0 resistance:

0% chance of resisting 25% damage
0% chance of resisting 50% damage
0% chance of resisting 75% damage
0% chance of resisting 100% damage

With 100 resistance:

70% chance of resisting 25% damage
40% chance of resisting 50% damage
15% chance of resisting 75% damage
5% chance of resisting 100% damage

With 400 resistance:

99% chance of resisting 25% damage
75% chance of resisting 50% damage
45% chance of resisting 75% damage
30% chance of resisting 100% damage

So with only a little bit of resistance, there'd still be a very small chance to resist a big heap of the damage.

I refer the hnourable gentleman to the most excellent Combat Ratings post over at EJ:
http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-combat_ratings_level_85_cataclysm/

Yes it's an average damage reduction, but it's a solid one and I did not factor in the effect of  say Kings and other buffs in the overall reductions.

Currently running through the logs on this one.   Last night was a truly 'heroic' effort, 31 pulls in a night is a seriously  impressive level of commitment to a boss kill.  

The ongoing effort is really appreciated, we'll get him soon. :thumbsup:

Just one comment: If you and your partner have to soak just keep going and dont think "maybe my partner will not make it lets stop running" and let your partner die while soaking alone :P
This is something we should be really aware off :)

Blade Rush:
Across the whole night we tookl 18m damage from this avoidable attack and we need to get better at avoiding it.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ycso9svlsyk7cxjc/spell/109014/?enc=wipes&boss=56427
^^You can see that we all take more damage than we should and some a lot more than others.  Miicroid & Jesung did best so well done both of you.   If we can reduce our charge damage to Miicroid's & Jesung's level then the healers will avoid having to heal up an additional 8.3m HP.

Points to note:
The damage of blade rush extends well beyond the end of the line on the deck/floor.  I took damage several times when I was at least 5 yds off the end of the designated charge line so we need to move off-axis completely and by I'd suggest 8+yds.  

In addition, there is some really wierd server timings issues on blade rush, you can move out and still get hit when you are off-axis by quite some way if you leave the movement until too late - the lesson is to move immediately and not wait.


Sappers:
We need to assign one person to call each of these on TS.  Too many times we got to it late as not all had noticed the spawn.

Survivability
Please note that just because someone's name is mentioned it does not mean that it was their fault, we just need ot understand why.   For example, Barrage soaking is a team thing and if someone dies it's usually because they solo-soaked something that shoulod have been shared with an absent partner!
Try|Early Deaths|Note
1|Puja|170k onslaught - was debuffed with 1 stack at the time
1|Hubbah & Miicroid|Miicro - hit by Blade rush charge & Barrage at same time whilst also having 1 stack of debuff.  Hubbah - hit by 80k Barragae (normal) but had also taken 62K blade rush 10 seconds before (not healed up)
2|Jas|162k barrage - needs detailed log check to see if was debuffed or if trinket used
2|Puja|hit by Barrage (150k) then Blade rush charge within a second whilst probably also having 1 stack of debuff
3|Puja|hit by Blade rush charge then Barrage (150k) six seconds later
4|Puja|hit by Barrage (160k).  
5|Onslaught fail|Not enough soaking, killed 3 people
6|Miicroid|hit by Barrage (89k & 170k within 10 seconds)
6|Whytee|hit by 8k Degeneration - slow death over time, insufficient healing
7|Leggs|Last 6 seconds took an Onslaught, Degeneration, Blade Rush and a Barrage
7|Torgen|Last 7 seconds took an Onslaught (82k) and a Barrage (112k)
8|Miicroid|Last 9 seconds took 89k Barrage then 120k Onslaught
8|Incendia|Last 4 seconds took an 87k Blade Rush then an 88k Barrage
9|Puja|hit by Barrage (175k)
9|Onslaught fail|Not enough soaking, killed 3 people
10|Teaell|Pair soaking worked, but forgot to click Mirror
11|Teaell|Hit by 66k Barrage, but took 60k from Deck Fire in previous 4 seconds
11|Whytee|hit by 1575 Degeneration, but took 35k from Dreadblade and 125k Onslaught in previous 1 second
12|Onslaught fail|Not enough soaking, killed 3 people
13|Leggs|Hit by 116k Onslaught and then 50k Degeneration cone
13|Torgen|hit by 57k Blade Rush then 11k Barrage
14|Teaell| hit by 165k Barrage
14|Incendia|hit by 113k Barrage then 130k Barrage 9 seconds later
15|Torgen|hit by 170k Barrage
15|Onslaught fail|Not enough soaking, killed 2 people
16|Leggs|
17|Jas|hit by 50k Barrage then by 118k Onslaught 4 seconds later
18|Torgen|hit by 157k Barrage
19|Jesung|hit by 115k Barrage (60 deck fire taken in previous 12 secs)
19|Incendia|in final 12 seconds took 31k Onslaught  solo soak, 33k Deck Fire, 8k/19k/19k/19k Cauterize then the final 25k Deck Fire killed
20|Whytee|hit by 140k Barrage
21|Tank error|Hubbah then Torgen killed by loose Dreadblade
22|Teaell|final 5 seconds hit by 79k Onslaught, 56l Blade Rush then 36k Barrage
24|Hubbah|hit by 66k Blade Rush and 105k Barrage at same time
25|Torgen|hit by 150k Barrage
25|Jas|hit by 163k Barrage
26|Jas|hit by 160k Barrage
26|Incendia|died to Cauterize after a solo soak, but also took 38k Degeneration post-soak
27|Whytee|hit by 181k Barrage
27|Jas|hit by 161k Barrage
28|Puja| hit by 96k Onslaught, but got meleed by a Dreadslayer for 83k just 4 seconds beforehand
28|Teaell|stood like a lemon in 2 blade rushes for 55k & 55k
29|Hubbah|tried to soak 2 Barrages in 3 seconds, took 34k then 169k damage
30|Torgen|hit by 130k Barrage 7 seconds after taking 74k Onslaught
31|Torgen|hit by 168k Barrage 8 seconds after taking 74k Onslaught
31|Whytee|hit by 146k Barrage, 33k Balde Rush, 26k normal melee and 7k Degeneration in last 3 seconds

Barrage
Almost every single death above involves Barrage in one way or another.  

• We took a Barrage too soon after Onslaught (use common sense here, we've got 2 healers and they're keeping tank up and trying to bring raid HP back up, so don't go rush to soak Barrages after the Onslaught!)
• We took it in conjunction with something else (like Blade Rush - just MOVE!)
• We miscommunicated and solo-soaked something we were planning to pair soak.  

BARRAGE is the game, that's where we need to fix things.   If we handle Barrage  better then we avoid 29 of last night's 31 wipes.  That's HUGE.

Dreadslayer - frontal cone damage
Need to look out for the frontal cone damage.  Torgen (1.37m), Leggs (845k) & Hubbah (651k) took significantly more than others.  Melee have it slightly harder, but we can still avoid more.  Everyone else took 88k-340k.


....and that's enough for now.

I think we should have a go at single soaking with Trinket ( not saying it is the answer but would be interested to see how it went )........we lost a lot of people last night down to the "stutter effect" leaving us with one person in and one person very nearby but out. I soaked a number of the small swirls solo last night with trinket ( running in and then realising i was going to be on my own i popped the trinket to save my arse ).....and whilst it does make for a harder hit it is not so much of an issue healer wise as it is one person to heal rather than 2 ( or often 3 where the small swirl was on the border of 2 areas ).

In an ideal world both people would commit and be there - the reality is that sometimes one is ahead of the other and thinking that no 2 is not going to make it no 1 starts to pull out........there is a bit of a dance and the end result is that one ends up in there dying solo. Comms would help, but we can't really do that as we'd end up flooding out TS with calls.

Blade Rush - this hits if you are in place when the rush starts ........so even if you have moved to a good place by the time the rush reaches where u were.....you still get counted as hit ( in fact i get an audio ping of damage to me BEFORE the rush animation has started telling me i have been hit )

Healing wise - it is getting a lot better....the levels of output needed to heal people up are going down to a sustainable level so it means that generally people are managing to avoid more of the unnecessary damage ).

Cheers

Niel

Quote from: Niel;347006I think we should have a go at single soaking with Trinket

I think we'll get better at the teamwork required to avoid the stutter problems, so pair soaking will improve as we improve.   We could single soak as you suggest we're then in a bit of a bind as solo-soaking a Barrage would requires use of Mirror and on average you will still take 148k damage  (sometimes more and killing you, sometimes less).  If we take any other damage or are not at pretty much full HP then you're dead.

If you work it through, I do not believe that it affects the number of Barrages you can soak per minute as:

Initially a pair would soak 2 Barrages (2 total), the first without Mirror, the second with Mirror, then soak as a pair once every 15 seconds until the mirror is up again.
Initially solo-soakers would soak 1 each (2 total), then pair soak every 15 seconds until Mirror CD was up.

I guess you could argue that two solo soakers might be able to soak 2 faster than a pair, but it's marginal at best imo.  I think we just need to learn to work as a pair better than we are currently doing as 148k damage is a little but on the high side for my liking.

On a side note jesung / micro were only in half the fight each so credit should probs go to Torgen for avoidance

in regards to me taking so many charges, it is not uncommon for me to intentionally take a hit...ill explain
Alot of the fight i am on the drake which requires strict positioning, i have to stand very close to the edge a swell as angle myself to cleave, so when i am targetted for charge at this position or sometimes the add next to me hits me on the way out, i will simply let it hit me rather than loose 2-6 secs uptime
( depending on how risky i want to be with the ship edge ). I realise that it's extra damage taken but i take extremely little damage this fight due to me not being a designated soaker and my use of feint. If say i took a charge chances are i would still survive an onslaught and you could literally not heal me for 2 minutes and i would survive. With the third add out i am avoiding charges as its not supposed to die until we are ready.
So yeh i don't fail at the mechanic as much as logs suggest
And yes that means i felt the need to justify me being so high up


Also in regards to partner soaking if it was me i would tell my partner to just go for what he can and i would stand directly on top of him the entire time

i would want to try me hitting always the left side drake where the tanks will pull the biggy adds. i could chain lightning them and over 2x more dps what im doing now. if i burn my cooldowns on them. i can do some serius damage

cooldowns order for me
1 drakes nothing. the drakes are allready so low on hp that we get them + big adds always before the next ones appear

2 drakes trikets+elemastery. +2.3k spell power,+15% spell dam,+20%haste,+22,5% dual attack change(mastery skill) whit that burst on all 3 of them dragon+2 biggys. it would be a lost of dps me burning just one target, when my strogest skill is chain lightning

3 drakespot +1.2k int. and maybe we shouls use hero on this one?

my dps sucks yes that is true but i can do more if you let me try this.

It's not a matter of doing a lot of dps, it's a matter of where to put that DPS. Meters on this fight will show low dps, but that's largely because of movement and target switching.

That said, I don't know how you guys handle drakes off the top of my head so it may be a good suggestion. Just saying you shouldn't stare blindly at the DPS numbers as they mean very little in P1 of this fight ;-)

With my drake left drake, heres how it goes for me

1) i dont start attacking til after first onslaught...it lands just before so i stay on adds for a bit. First drake then usually dies be4 flying away or it dies to dots

2) i am immediately on this one and pop major CDs Hubbah also pops his CDs and we both bring it down pretty fast - it doesn't fly away

3) again i'm immeditely on it and on our couple of better tries it flew away around half although i would say we haven't really been stable at this point yet

So yeh overall if i'm on the left drake there is no dps issue on it

sorry my mistake i should just be silenc...and for now one i will do so.

It's not a matter of being silent Miicroid, silence is not what we want.   We want an exchange of views and an active debate as to how best to deal with the issues we see. Officers will not always know best, although we try our hardest!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7awke1YAq2o
this was my idea

Oh yes I didn't mean it to come off as "you should shut up" or anything. As I said it might be a good suggestion ;-)

EDIT: Re the video, makes me want to go lvl my ele shammy again :-) Forgot how much fun it was.

Also, even though this is pretty much 180* against what I just said, their numbers are significantly higher than ours. Their top 5 is doing some 33k dps on average, with only their rogue lagging behind at ~28k. Now, it shows that's  a little more than is needed, as they're done with the current wave of adds before every new one. But maybe something to be gained for us? I know we're on track for doing this with the 1st wave. Second wave, I don't know about the dragons, but at least for the melee adds I lose some serious DPS time to all the moving around for onslaughts and, primarily, the sappers. There's only 1 sapper for the 1st wave and he's pretty late in, but afterwards they seem to drop like flies and I get less time on the melee adds. I'll strive for a higher DPS output on them next time.

Quote from: Niel;347006I think we should have a go at single soaking with Trinket

I've been thinking about this some more and I think I am changing my mind on this strategy.  

I think it might increase dps to not have to continually monitor where your buddy is - it would certainly remove the stutter problem for the first couple of Barrage soaks anyway.  Thereafter you need to pair up anyway, so I guess no difference there, but single soaking the first couple mnight be an advantage especially as healers only need to heal up 1 person not 2 for that first soak.  

10 trinketed people can soak 10 Barrages solo, so the aim must be to get 10 soaked per minute whilst drakes are up and to kill off drakes before the minute is up.   That way we can rinse & repeat on the second and third waves of drakes.

Additionally, it might be worth anyone with the debuff NOT soaking in the Onslaughts.   Too much RNG there with Blade Rush damage too.

Might be worth a try tonight.

Quote from: TeaLeaf;347070I've been thinking about this some more and I think I am changing my mind on this strategy.  

I think it might increase dps to not have to continually monitor where your buddy is - it would certainly remove the stutter problem for the first couple of Barrage soaks anyway.  Thereafter you need to pair up anyway, so I guess no difference there, but single soaking the first couple mnight be an advantage especially as healers only need to heal up 1 person not 2 for that first soak.  

10 trinketed people can soak 10 Barrages solo, so the aim must be to get 10 soaked per minute whilst drakes are up and to kill off drakes before the minute is up.   That way we can rinse & repeat on the second and third waves of drakes.

I'm all for this, if Puja says its easier to heal too. I've hardly used my trinket at all last time, simply because there was so little to soak. I definetly reckon it's doable, the only concern I have is that the quadrant thing might not work as some quadrants might get 4 or 5 in the same time another gets maybe 1 barrage.

Just reading on MMO Champ

QuoteWe are doing 9 man soak onslaught, and 1 tank is staying out soaking barrages. That tank will soak 2-3 and then tank swap when 2nd set of elites land, and the tanks swaps arround. Works wonder.

Else we use raid cooldowns something like this:

1st onslaught: DK tank (9 people soak)
2nt onslaught: nothing (10 people soak since their is no barrages)
3rd onslaught: feral tank (9 people soak)
4th onslaught: spirit link/tranq if needed (9 people soak)
5th onslaught: nonthing (10 people soak)

the 5th onslaught will only come if you let one of the drakes from 3rd wave fly off, for a more cleaner transition, and their if theirfor no point soaking more barrages, the ship should be more than fine.

The most crucial thing about the fight is, that fire spawns at 75%, 50% and 25% ship HP, so its really important you never take double hit at same time, like go from 51% > 24% then its gets messy

Dunno if thats any help to what everyones seen

I'm not saying single soaking is the answer - the danger is that it wouldn't take much to take someone from the low HP they will be at to the laying down on the deck state.

What it would solve is "do i, don't i, do i" stutter that we are seeing kill people.......everyone that does it is in command of their own destiny and is not relying on someone being right on them.

It would mean the soaking pairs keeping track of who's turn it is.......so a macro'd operation of the trinket that included a whisper to your soaking partner saying "you get next" or similar would hopefully keep people aware of when they are on duty for their quadrant........this to avoid both people taking the same one and both popping trinks and effectively losing the chance of them single soaking again for a minute.

It's be nice to see it for a few goes.....if only to rule it out as a silly idea. I do see advantages that would address some of the problems we have had and also increase dps by cutting down movement as a whole.......but there are of course potential costs that we have not fully quantified by trying.

*cough* 3 healers *cough*

To low dps if we try 3 healers..

Quote from: hubbah;347126To low dps if we try 3 healers..

Agreed.  

We tried single soaking last night and it did not work as well as we hoped, so we reverted to pair soaking.
We also moved to 1 melee 5 ranged (instead of 2 melee, 4 ranged) and this really seemed to help.

Overrall DPS has improved, so we moved to mass soaking #1 & #2 Onslaughts with Incendia and me soaking #3 & #4.   We need to establish (by regularly surviving long enough) that the ship has enough HP to allow a solo soak twice, otherwise we might need to mass soak one of them.

Barrage soaking seemed to improve a lot last night and we were really only starting to struggle towards the end of the 2nd Drake wave and as the 3rd wave dropped into the action.  

All in all a good night's work on this encounter.  Well done all!

Quote from: hubbah;347126To low dps if we try 3 healers..

Quote from: TeaLeaf;347129Agreed.  

There are several pages with kills recorded with 3 healers out there on WoL. (yes, even with 2xMdps)
Your statement seem to be "the general" rule amongst RGT, and it keeps frustrating me... Am I alone on this? I think I am. (I was not raiding yesterday, nor Sunday.. so its not me that wants in. Its a 3rd healer).

We tried 2-healing Morchok.. it didnt work out so we did our first kill with 4 healers (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k35lwb9b5nfo3z4i/sum/healingDone/?s=3761&e=4192).
We tried 2-healing Yor'sahj... it didnt work out so we did our first kill with 3 healers (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/mamsd9lk81apkb9l/sum/healingDone/?s=2869&e=3469).
We tried 2-healing Hagara...  it didnt work out so we did our first kill with 3 healers (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-6j3paswcru2hnwkz/sum/healingDone/?s=4874&e=5296).

We never tried 2-healing Zon'ozz... and we got a 1st Heroic Zon'ozz kill just 6 days after we got our first Heroic Ultrazion kill. Only 6 days?! Is this becuase 3 healers from start made us nail the strat straight away?

Does history repeat itself? Firelands is a way back... but I remember Shonnox... trying with 2 healers; Didnt work out. Killed Shannox with 3. The same with Alyszrazor and Majordomo?


I dont want these Fatboss guides to be "general rule" at all. We dont fit in their box because
A) Our gear is superior to what they had when they killed these bosses.
B) DS nerfs.
C) Playstyles... They are EXTREMELY aware of movements and do not allow any safety margin.

We do take alot more damage in every fight than they do.
With 3 healers we will have a huge safety margin timewise (to heal up) when there is
A) An onslaught after barrage to any player.
B) A barrage after onslaught to any player.

Looking through logs, there was alot of this happening.

With tongue firmly in cheek, can I remind you Slush of your comment from the last time you were calling for us to go with more healers?

Quote from: Slush;342768Ok, I was properly proven wrong tonight by TL. The dps barely lasted. Gz RGT on the kill, and yay for a fun fight. :D

Seriously though, we're open to exploring the different options Slush, but I can see what we're killing (or not killing) much better than I can see what you are healing - and I suspect the reverse is equally true.    

We're not generally dying to lack of healing, we're becoming overrun with melee adds & fire on the deck because Drakes are still alive.  These are not lack of healing problems.  The ship blowing up means we did not soak well enough and adding a healer to this will only make it worse not better.

You will have noticed that when we added heroism it suddenly cleaned up that phase of the fight, that's because the adds died quicker and we managed to keep up with things until the final phase.

As a sanity check, I picked page 500 from WoL for this Heroic kill and went through the logs:

25 kills listed on the page
Only 2 used 3 healers and their DPS was higher than ours was even with the extra DPS we use.
The vast majority of other kills used 2 healers and a DK tank (who was also 3rd highest healer).  

We're not averse to looking at changes, but as far as I can tell from looking at what we are DPSing, we're hardly keeping up as it is.   An extra healer would increase ship damage and slow us down even further.   That's my reasoning.

We're not slavishly following FatBoss or any other guides, but we are adjusting to what suits us as we learn an encounter - exactly like we did with Yor'sahj.

Well I won't say you couldn't try, as you say it's been succesfull in the past. But I reckon we'll lose by attrition in the end, as the drakes possibly won't die fast enough to go down in 1 tether (yet), resulting in more barrages than the ship can handle. Remember if we stick with 1 melee that'll also mean a slight loss in dragon dps. We'll have less dps on drakes than we had when we were rolling 4 ranged 2 melee.

Granted, we have seen a lot of premature deaths and not often seen later phases with all dps up. We also used to threeheal normal mode before, because twoheal didn't cut it yet.

I know what ya saying slush and it may be worth a try but looking at the damage taken by the boat at the moment means we are needing all the dps we can get ...The healing on the fight is not massive tbh.. If you look at my healz most of it is heading to overhealing. The deaths we are getting are due mostly to soaking/personal errors. We remove them and there is very little to heal.

Quote from: Slush;347136I dont want these Fatboss guides to be "general rule" at all. We dont fit in their box because
A) Our gear is superior to what they had when they killed these bosses.
B) DS nerfs.
C) Playstyles... They are EXTREMELY aware of movements and do not allow any safety margin.

I just wanted to comment on this part since i do agree with you on most of the other parts :)

Point A is not only for the DPS it is for the healers as well, your gear is superior to what the healers from fatboss had and even if they would have done it with 3 you should now be able to do it with 2 ( nerfs & gear upgrades ).

For some reason everytime we get stuck it we add another healer and the DPS will just have to pick up the slack which seems abit strange to me :P
Up untill now it all worked out due to our dps aint that bad, but due to the movement of this fight alot of us are really suffering ( Me and Micro should be to 2 suffering the least, but im just watching my feet and other stuff the whole time and screwing up my rotation, popping stuff at wrong time etc which results in a dps loss on my part. )
I do try to pick it up and as far as i know i went up quite abit yesterday if you look at the sunday try's.

For your last point yes you are right but this is a learning curve, we only see the kill and not the 200 wipes they had before hand :)

Quote from: TeaLeaf;347141With tongue firmly in cheek, can I remind you Slush of your comment from the last time you were calling for us to go with more healers?

Interesting how my "sorry post" doesnt change the fact that we killed him with 3 healers AFTER I suggested it. Learning curve and adjusting tactics doesnt change that either.

Quote from: TeaLeaf;347141Seriously though, we're open to exploring the different options Slush, but I can see what we're killing (or not killing) much better than I can see what you are healing - and I suspect the reverse is equally true.

Yeh, with 3 healers that keep topping up, we actually have the ability to take more barrages. Gather adds and AoE after the drakes are down? I know they cast Degeneration, but how big is our window from first set of drakes till second set with 1 less dps? Do we have the ability to keep tanks up while their debuff is stacking?
Will we be able to properly handle Sapper with 1 less dps? Questions asked. Would be interesting to "check". Not to "stick to".

Quote from: TeaLeaf;347141As a sanity check, I picked page 500 from WoL for this Heroic kill and went through the logs:

25 kills listed on the page
Only 2 used 3 healers and their DPS was higher than ours was even with the extra DPS we use.
The vast majority of other kills used 2 healers and a DK tank (who was also 3rd highest healer).

I have seen this aswell. 10k+ HPS from that tank. We dont have that. What road does the rest of the guilds take? Some brings a 3rd healer. Some goes with 2 and hopes for the best. So far, we have done the last.. we are headed there, sure.

Quote from: TeaLeaf;347141We're not slavishly following FatBoss or any other guides, but we are adjusting to what suits us as we learn an encounter - exactly like we did with Yor'sahj.

As stated above; Im not saying that we are not going there. Dont get me wrong. Im saying that there are more than one road that can take us there. The reason I am suggesting this is to get my head chopped off... and to hopefully see if going 3 healers is actually worth it.

Quote from: hubbah;347149For some reason everytime we get stuck it we add another healer and the DPS will just have to pick up the slack which seems abit strange to me :P

-More healing output and lesser damage taken does not actively help to beat an enragetimer (higher total HPS).
-More healing helps out in overcoming the problems that might otherwise have decreased DPS (deaths, not moving out of stuff on the floor).

Quote from: hubbah;347149Point A is not only for the DPS it is for the healers as well, your gear is superior to what the healers from fatboss had and even if they would have done it with 3 you should now be able to do it with 2 ( nerfs & gear upgrades ).

In a perfect world, the every raid member would have moved as well as them. As we are not moving as well as them, there is more incoming damage than outgoing healing.
I am still thinking; Blizzard designed every 10-man encounter with "2 healers, 3 tanks and 5 dps'ers in mind. So there is no "slack", there is just different ways of approaching an encounter.

All in all:
It might be another "lol slush, you naive twat" moment... but hey... I can take a few more blows _and_ pherhaps learn something as we go. I am still thinking; Blizzard designed every 10-man encounter with "2 healers, 3 tanks and 5 dps'ers in mind.

I think you are totally missing the point Slush.

People are not dying due to lack of healing or soaking less due to lack of healing.  They are dying to:

-soaking mistakes
-the ship blowing up
-becoming overrun with adds

Which of these is related to healing?

And you did not reply to my last comment that we are still learning and you only saw a clean kill from them.. they said they had like 150 wipes as well before the kill..

The dmg intake & the dmg output will get alot beter after we stop fudging up :)

I think that's a very fair point Hubbah.  As we learn the fights and get better then DPS goes up and Damage Taken goes down.  


   Out of interest (and seeing as Morchok, Yor'sahj & Hagara were quoted):

We had a very similar experience with HC Yor'sahj where we initially started with 3 healers but then could not then cope with the DPS requirements.  So we moved to 2 healers and then the DPS improved and became more efficient to the point where we could increase to 3 healers again.

From the outset I recommended 4 healers for HC Morchok, we only tried 2 healers very briefly to prove a point iirc and then stuck with the 4 healer strategy.  

For Hagara we tried just 4 quick pulls at the very end of a raid night with 2 healers and immediately switched to 3 healers from the next raid night onwards.


The message from that is that we do change & adapt to what we see - if we get to a stage where we see surplus DPS throughout the fight then we can move to 3 healers (or need the 3 to survive where DPS requirements are not an issue).  

For Blackhorn, now that we are using 1 melee, 5 ranged, we are for the first time seeing some down time at the end of the first wave (maybe 2-3 seconds of nothing to do but wait for the Sapper), but we're not seeing any downtime later in the fight.  Perhaps with another 5 HC boss kills this reset before revisiting HC Blackhorn we might see a further change as we continue to learn & improve.

We need to stop making mistakes so that we can better evaluate our HPS & DPS requirements.  At the moment the mistkes are killing us or the ship.

Quote from: hubbah;347126To low dps if we try 3 healers..

This, we are barely scraping it now to be honest dropping a DPS would do nothing but make the fight last way too long, no offence to the other DPS but I don't think we could make up the slack of a missing DPS and as Teaell said we are rarely dying from lack of healing, it's mainly personnel faults of solo soaking or getting charged.

Quote from: TeaLeaf;347155I think you are totally missing the point Slush.

Mmm... nope.

Quote from: TeaLeaf;347155-soaking mistakes

Lets look at your table, 31 wipes:
Try 6 - Whytee hit by 8k Degeneration - slow death over time, insufficient healing
Try 7 - Torgen Last 7 seconds took an Onslaught (82k) and a Barrage (112k) (not topped)
Try 8 - Miicroid Last 9 seconds took 89k Barrage then 120k Onslaught (not topped)
Try 8 - Incendia Last 4 seconds took an 87k Blade Rush then an 88k Barrage (not topped)
Try 18 - Torgen hit by 157k Barrage (was hit by Barrage 11 sec after Onslaught, not topped).
Try 19 - Jesung hit by 115k Barrage (60 deck fire taken in previous 12 secs)
Try 19 - Incendia in final 12 seconds took 31k Onslaught solo soak, 33k Deck Fire, 8k/19k/19k/19k Cauterize then the final 25k Deck Fire killed (not topped)
Try 24 - Torgen hit by 150k Barrage (not topped off after Onslaught 14 secs before)
Try 30 and 31 is very similar to 24.
I count: 8/31 wipes that _might_ have been avoided_

Yesterdays logs, I did a quick browse through wipes: Try 13, 16, 17 and 18 have 1st deaths that could have been avoided with  topping off.

If there was topping off, these killed could have been avoided. When you have the debuff from Barrage, one have to be topped off when going into an Onslaught due to the debuff. In some of these cases.. they were not.

There might have been more. I know I would be scared to take:
A) An Onslaught is I had debuff+low hp.
B) A Barrage if debuffed and low on hp.

as this would then cause soaking partner to die.

Quote from: TeaLeaf;347155-the ship blowing up

This happens because barrage/Onslaught does not hit us. Does this happen due to what mentioned above? People not daring to take it because of low hp?
Would be nice to see if 3 healers actually had an effect on this.

Quote from: TeaLeaf;347155-becoming overrun with adds

The Slayers debuff is "least dangerous". With 1 less dps, he should have last prio. With 1 extra healer we should have enough to keep tank up through some extra stacks. (Tanks dying has this far been rare).
This means the melee dps will have something to work on as new drakes are spawning.
Yes, it will mean we will fall more behind for each wave, but with hero at the end of wave 3.. This can be done?

Quote from: TeaLeaf;347155Which of these is related to healing?

Some.
Not many. Not none. Some.

If you feel that you are barely able to dps whats already there; Maybe staying with 2 healers is the way to go. AGAIN; Im not saying it is not wrong, its merely a matter of different opinions for how to further progress.

Quote from: hubbah;347158And you did not reply to my last comment that we are still learning and you only saw a clean kill from them.. they said they had like 150 wipes as well before the kill..

Why would we want to comment on this. We are learning, thats why I proposed a different raid setup.
They knew there was no way in hell they could have done that with their gear level, so they _had_ to leave out a healer. They could not leave out a tank due to the tanks debuff/rotation. I dont want to see our guild wipe 150+ times on each encounter when we are already at a decent gear level. Im not saying that 3-healer setup is the way to go, but it might alse give the officers a different view.

Honestly Slush, without that extra 1 DPS there is no way that we would get the second and third pairs of drakes down in the short amount of time that we should and we would undoubtedly get overlapping adds as we were before added the extra ranged but even worse as there wouldn't be a DPS at all. As you pointed out the dying from barrages from not being topped off is killing people but I think people need to make a conscious decision of whether to soak or not. Also we shouldn't be using hero in the first phase at all, it should be saved for when the boss drops down, and with 1 less DPS at that point without hero I don't think the enrage would be met.

Bottom line for me, I think adding a 3rd healer in this case is not a solution to a problem, it's a workaround: If we don't mess up soaks, we don't need a 3rd healer. The solution to the messing up is to deal with the cause: properly move in and out of soaks. Not to remedy the problem's consequence: low health after a messed up soak.

Next, if we add a 3rd healer, we'll be able to last longer against more soaks, this is true. But the ship won't. As last night showed we're already stretching it to the limit of what the ship can handle. The solution to this, in my eyes, is that we need to up the drake DPS. I want to refer again to the video Micro linked and have you all look at the DPS numbers they're pumping out. All are 30K+. Our own numbers are all below 30k. That's a *big* difference in how many barrages we have to soak overall.

We find that we can't DPS efficiently enough because we're busy handling barrages (and onslaughts etc.), yet if we can increase DPS, we decrease barrages.

So we need to work on two things:

1. Handle soaking a lot better, thereby preventing premature deaths.
2. Learn to sustain our usual high (enough) dps output while doing so, thereby causing less barrages overall.

With regards to Slush's argument, I've to side with TL and say that neither of those two are directly related to a lack of healing.
Re Hubbah (and other DPS who might experience the same, me included): Maybe it's an idea to handle the problem the other way around. Start with focussing on performing your rotation properly, and work towards keeping an eye out for barrages from there. But keep the DPS rotation as a top priority in your mind.

Yes i have been trying to do so and my dps went up quite abit if im not mistaken.
The biggest problem i have is that the "soaking" with your partner is not fluent and im losing like 10 seconds ( at least ) of dps time because im going in and out.. holding back screaming on TS ( not really ).
I really believe that once we get used to that part and the moving & dpsing ( so in my case its reserving 100 focus to launch instant shots when on the move, etc ) it should go up quite abit.

All with all im 100% sure that we wont be able to make it with 3 healers due to the DPS numbers being to low AT THE MOMENT ( not saying its not possible in the future ).

Why would you not want a 150 wipes btw slush? We all have to learn & adept to the fight anyway.. :P

Anyway, back to work.. cu tomorrow for some more killing stuff :)

The Dreadblade is already prio out of the two melee, so no change there.

Regarding the melee, if we get behind we store up a mammoth problem for the third wave of drakes because the melee need to be dead by the time we kill the last drake as that's when P2 starts.  If we are behind a little on the melee at that point then we give the drakes free reign to toss more Barrage at us and the ship whilst we catch up again.  

So it's a balance we're trying to maintain between minimising drake uptime, keeping up with melee, then trying to ensure (we've yet to have the chance) that we get a nice clean entry into P2.  I've been using heroism mid second wave to help dps acclimatise to the fight, but we ideally want to hold it until Goriona lands in P2 to push through that phase.

Btw, I'm loving the interraction here.  Regardless of disagreement or not, I believe that the fact we all actively & vigorously debate different ideas is what makes us stronger as a raid team. :thumbsup:

QuoteBtw, I'm loving the interraction here.  Regardless of disagreement or  not, I believe that the fact we all actively & vigorously debate  different ideas is what makes us stronger as a raid team. :thumbsupsmileyanim:

Yep me also

when the last drage dies theres a 10s countdown before P2 starts. the big adds can be alive whit low health. before last drake dies.
if you want i can start nuking whit my chain ligthning on the biggys after second set of drakes. then they will be down before the drakes. that wont solve the ship hp thou =(

Whoah....i get home and this thread has got all lively ;)

My twopence worth.

I remain to be convinced on three healers - there were not many initial deaths that were to lack of healing ( where it hadn't already started unravelling ). We had a few single soaks that were not intended to be single, and then some soakers that got blade rushed shortly after soaking - most of this points to awareness and not healing being the issue. The dps loss would be an issue right now that we could no cope with i think.

In terms of healing output - we are running around 17-18K HPS most attempts and we had a few attempts near the end where it was mostly ticking along nicely and well under control...........where the fail was actually ship death due to too much damage due to insufficient soaking. Many deaths were the result of lack of co-ordination within soaking teams.

I am tempted to say that with 3 healers we would see many of the same deaths that we are now as the damage that was most often killing people was a block of damage in a very short time due to mistakes.

Single soaking - we had a few goes but it wasn't good. I would like to see this revisited maybe and people actually follow single soak as a tactic......when we were single soaking we had people still following the dual soak method and it was nothing more than confusion from what i could see as we had a complete mixture with people doing neither one thing or the other.

Cheers

Niel

Quote from: Niel;347215Whoah....i get home and this thread has got all lively ;)

My twopence worth.

I remain to be convinced on three healers - there were not many initial deaths that were to lack of healing ( where it hadn't already started unravelling ). We had a few single soaks that were not intended to be single, and then some soakers that got blade rushed shortly after soaking - most of this points to awareness and not healing being the issue. The dps loss would be an issue right now that we could no cope with i think.

In terms of healing output - we are running around 17-18K HPS most attempts and we had a few attempts near the end where it was mostly ticking along nicely and well under control...........where the fail was actually ship death due to too much damage due to insufficient soaking. Many deaths were the result of lack of co-ordination within soaking teams.

I am tempted to say that with 3 healers we would see many of the same deaths that we are now as the damage that was most often killing people was a block of damage in a very short time due to mistakes.

Single soaking - we had a few goes but it wasn't good. I would like to see this revisited maybe and people actually follow single soak as a tactic......when we were single soaking we had people still following the dual soak method and it was nothing more than confusion from what i could see as we had a complete mixture with people doing neither one thing or the other.

Cheers

Niel

I must say that i agree with Puja and TL on this one - This doable with 2 healers - We are not struggling with healing output, more with learning to soak and dps/heal efficiently while. As Puja said we had decent tries where the ship blew up or where we were overwhelmed by fire in the end, but mostly healing was allright and only a problem right after an onslaught where everyone is on low and spread around. This is the time where a charge is very bad or a soak can hurt, but i think we got alot further last night, and feel the 2. phase is just ahead of us, just need that last push, which im certain we will do tomorrow! :-)

After making ourselves endure almost two full raid nights of really sloppy performance, we partially redeemed ourselves somewhat in the last hour of the raid last night with some real good efforts on Blackhorn and our first entry into Phase 2 of Heroic Blackhorn.  

Nice job folks, let's re-focus and make use of this on Tuesday night by killing the dude! :clap2::w00t2::thumbsupsmileyanim:

QuoteWhat Ive happend to notice is that if you dont stand near the fire it  wont spread that much. The mechanic of the fire works like this (I  belive) Fire spreads over the ship very slow and the gnomes do have time to take  it away before it's all over the ship. But if a player is running thru  it the player takes the flames from the fire and spread them further  away on the ship and then fire will be everywhere. Avoiding this we did  just moved the hell away from fire like 10 yards away.

Worth keeping in mind

Also confirmed its working to stand in fire that they are putting out it will go away fast then - Might help on getting better view on what is on fire and whats not.

Quote from: JonnyAppleSeed;347590Worth keeping in mind

Some say that, some say its totally opposite, some say its RNG. If I know Blizzard correctly; they did something wrong at 4.3.3, said its "working like intended" and they never look back.

Fire was totally random last night, our best & cleanest entry was when we soaked during the first wave and then did not bother to soak any more Barrages until the Ship was at 25% or so.   That's just bizarre.  Conversely, one of our best soaking tries had us hit the 3rd wave of Drakes with the ship at 45% and the deck was entirely covered with fire.  Go figure.

I'm at a real loss here guys and need some help - I've googled & rerad practically everything I can find and I cannot figure out where or how to improve with consistency what we are doing.  Help please!

Quote from: TeaLeaf;347604Fire was totally random last night, our best & cleanest entry was when we soaked during the first wave and then did not bother to soak any more Barrages until the Ship was at 25% or so.   That's just bizarre.  Conversely, one of our best soaking tries had us hit the 3rd wave of Drakes with the ship at 45% and the deck was entirely covered with fire.  Go figure.

I'm at a real loss here guys and need some help - I've googled & rerad practically everything I can find and I cannot figure out where or how to improve with consistency what we are doing.  Help please!

Ok after doing a little sleuthing it seems that the fire spreads in the direction of a player that is very close to the fire, so if people are shuffling an inch over then the fire can be dragged across the whole boat. No obviously I wasn't there last night but that may be a reason for a boat load of fire.

Essentially when the fire spawns run away from it and avoid spreading it to the middle and such.

I did on the one go where i was near to fire keep having to move away and it seemed to keep creeping after me very soon after each move ( this was the go where we had the ship HP high but loads of fire )...........maybe the trick with fire is to keep the hell away from it and stay away from it.......one person go near it one the water is dropped on it just to stand in it ( and hopefully make it disappear )

Things that became clear afterwards:

Raidwall on Shockwave as Disrupting Roar comes a couple of seconds afterwards so should cover both.
IceBlock does not work for soaking Onslaught and an arcane mage does not have Cauterize!
I thought Consum,ing Shroud had ended, it hadn't.  Remain grouped up until it is over (helps healing).
Ranged DPS watch threat on Goriana as she lands - you've been humping her for 30 seconds so expect to have beter threat than the tank! (L2fade u muppet)

how do you that goriana is a she. did you check under the tail =)
also i noticed that this time there where no fire in p2. when all our previous trys the hole deck was in fire???

Deck fire is extinguished over time, when we went into P2 the far end of the deck was ablaze.

Quote from: microid;347915how do you that goriana is a she. did you check under the tail =)
also i noticed that this time there where no fire in p2. when all our previous trys the hole deck was in fire???

Look at the video. It's a proper inferno when the boss lands ;-) But the little gnomes luckily cleared it up rather fast.

Found this recent thread on MMO champ http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1152643-Advice-Help-with-Heroic-Warmaster

nice read.. some extra info is always welcome I guess :)

RGW had a few tries today,

Last try went pretty k and came pretty far into phase 1, looked more organised etc.

The thing i want to ask from the raiders at this time is to be more open into taking the little purple swirly thingies...
I know we signed pairs for the 4 area's of the ship, but as we all noticed with all the movement going on including the fire there are no area's to cover left for asigned people.

So for next run i would ask, that if the little thing spawns near you even if it aint in your area to take it, as long as you don't have the debuff that is.
As taking the thing on your own is just to risky even with the trinket etc..


Also after the big group up part i would love to see everyone splitting off in any direction as quickly as possible, when you see that ball landing start moving out! As most of the time there where still 2/3 people waiting there finding a target to dps while they should have moved out to avoid the charge(s).

I havn't looked at the logs but that is what i noticed, if we all improve on that then the fight should become easier as it will become a routine fight.

Quote from: Ice Hawk;354561i would love to see everyone splitting off in any direction as quickly as possible, when you see that ball landing start moving out! As most of the time there where still 2/3 people waiting there finding a target to dps while they should have moved out to avoid the charge(s).

I havn't looked at the logs but that is what i noticed, if we all improve on that then the fight should become easier as it will become a routine fight.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-hwcw4vlef1dx6bvh/spell/109014/?enc=wipes&boss=56427
That's the list of who got hit by Blade Rush across all 11 tries.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-hwcw4vlef1dx6bvh/spell/109204/?enc=wipes&boss=56427
This is the list of who soaked Twilight Barrage and how many times across all 11 tries.   The ones that were missed and therefore where the ship took the damage are listed here (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-hwcw4vlef1dx6bvh/spell/107501/?enc=wipes&boss=56427).

Who's the tank with the lowest strikes and 2nd highest abosorbs?

Treach!

:)


But seriously. Last night, it really felt like our 1st couple of attempts, things seemed to be going well but there wasn't enough people absorbing and the ship tooki way too much damage way too quickly. It seemed like the ship caught fire before the 2nd wave of adds on most attempts. That's not good.

as a melee dps i find those charges to be hell hard to even see with all the **** going on

Yeah we do need to work on the absorbs as the ship catches fire to quickly and therefore makes it harder to move etc.

It was out 1st "real" try at him and it was the last hour of raid. Hopefully today we will be fresher and we know what to do,its just bringing it all together.

Looking at logs, Oddbals took alot more blade rushes then average, & Grim soaked more (too many? :narnar: ) barrages compared to others. Think with some more tries & getting more used to the fight (+ the next nerf..) we should be able to get at least into phase 2.

Anyway, phase 1 is like this if you watch it for 20sec: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn15BUFBvu8&feature=player_detailpage#t=32s :D

From my perspective the things I think you need to work on are:

• not running too far to soak (it loses way too much dps and some melee in particular are suffering here)
• not soaking too much (you should never miss an onslaught due to having the debuff, so aim to soak after onslaught then watch your timers and stop 15sec before next onslaught)
• faster target switching to maintain dps levels (logs show downward dips where there should not necessarily be any)
• Better initial ramp up of dps on the Twilight Assault Drake and for fire mages application of combustion where possible
• Blade Rush avoidance!

Most tries ended due to avoidable deaths or being overrun.   Both can be resolved and that will allow you the extra 30 seconds or so to reach Phase 2.

Took us over a 100 try's as well :P youll get there! goodluck :)

Quote from: hubbah;354834Took us over a 100 try's as well :P youll get there! goodluck :)

The good news is that we killed the boss on only our 3rd entry into Phase 2 and our 1st entry into Phase 2 with all 10 people alive.  Getting to Phase 2 is not just the first half of the fight, it *is* the fight!

On the whole it was better. I made improvements on blade rush but still need to get better. (logs show quite a few for me but i was standing in them to die when we called the wipe)

Big up to yaril and hermi both dps was alot better and hermi your movement was LOADS better.

My soaking was pretty crap tbh,i would solo soak or forget my trinket so these are areas i need to work on.

Looking forward to weds for a new nerf and some progression on both Hagara and warmaster...read up,watch vids and get your trinket if you dont have it :)

I will have to do a lot better on the barrages. I noticed during the encounter that i was always a few secs late, or just focussing too hard on my target instead of all of my surroundings.
But i know what to improve on and i will be doing that next time!

My dps is a little problem and hard to do as a feral, as keeping a rotation going is very difficult. But ferals are superb at soaking, i can take 2 small swirly's and a big one in a row because of the defense cooldowns.

1 little paired with someone
1 little with the trinket
and the big one with survival instincts.

That is also why i soaked so many, i changed my soaking run to only those that are really close later on in the tries as i needed to focus more on dps as was said that some people focused to much on soaking that sometimes aint needed.

But yeah a feral druid aint the best dps for this fight as at the moment i don't see myself keeping any rotation going on the mobs with all the movement etc.
But we bring alot of other stuff with us in the raid: battleresses, innervates, multisoaking, movement increases   ;)    oohh  and the most important one:  the moonfire attack at the start of the fight at the dragon  ;)

I think the dps is needed more than the extra soaking Grim.  I know you think cats are poor on this fight, but this (http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Warmaster_Blackhorn/10H/100/14/60/default/) still shows them doing a median 33k dps which is pretty close to many other classes.

At the moment one of the issues is getting behind on dps on the Dread & Slayer, that's where the efforts need to go imo.

Quick reminder of the Consuming Shroud (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=110214) fight mechanic for RGT (and it might help RGW too) as we killed someone with friendly healing last night:

When someone gets this debuff it means the next 100k of healing received is negated and that any healing they receive is also thrown back at the raid as AOE damage to EVERYONE.

The way to deal with this debuff is to group up, put down Healing Rain, Efflorescence etc and SLOWLY trickle heal through this absorbed damage amount (much like you would for Plasma on HC Spine).  The trickle healing is exactly the same as the AOE damage taken thus the debuff is neutralised and easy to deal with.

What you do NOT do is target the person with the debuff and then slap a dirty great big single target heal on them which crits for 67k as it means that everyone else in the raid takes 67k damage as well.  This can kill people and it did last night.

This public service message is now over!

as TL say.. I know you think cats are poor on this fight, but this still shows them doing a median 33k dps which is pretty close to many other classes.

and I still wonder how the do it.. must be uber-gear or something :rolleyes:
but if anyone see a good explaining for that fight for cats.. show me pls..

Quote from: pälsboll;354999and I still wonder how the do it.. must be uber-gear or something :rolleyes:
but if anyone see a good explaining for that fight for cats.. show me pls..

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Dragon_Soul/Warmaster_Blackhorn/10H/Feral-Cat_Druid/

There's 5 pages of cat logs to compare.  Hope it helps!

What you posted tl ^^ is that for warmaster?....

then thats another thing to worry about :P

For pals and myself it just counts as sod off with the main target and start swapping between all mobs alive and put a rotation on all of them and keep them running.
We get the hard part again, those lazy warriors and rogue's have it easy :narnar:

Quote from: Ice Hawk;355024For pals and myself it just counts as sod off with the main target and start swapping between all mobs alive and put a rotation on all of them and keep them running.
We get the hard part again, those lazy warriors and rogue's have it easy :narnar:

totally agree :rolleyes:

Got to phase 2 at least! :narnar:
Our last 2 tries were the best (can rewatch them here if you want: http://nl.twitch.tv/cynba1/b/328514518, they both are between 0:30:00 & 0:43:00. seems to be no audio though :g:)

Anyway, first set of drakes always seem to go down when they should, first time they land. But both second & third set we always have 1 drake flying back up again.. think this is where we need to step up, now we spent too much time in P1. There's ofcourse the need of improvement avoiding the charges/soaking barrages but I feel the dps on the drakes is the main issue now..

Overall things were better yet we had issues with some of the ranged dps.

It was pointed out that night and we had people new and newish to it so hopefully bit more practise then that dps will up and therefore push us to phase 2 quicker.

Charges are still an issue we lost the same people to them time and time again.

Bit of tidying up and its going down

Sorry I know I didn't put in a great performance it was my first try but I will do better next time hopefully we will get there tonight ?

For your 1st try you did better than others mate :)...

So we will be on this mofo on monday....lets get him down

for swed....

This is my new macro for adds...seems to work fine


/target Twilight Elite Dreadblade
/focus
/cast [@focus,exists,harm] Living Bomb
/clearfocus
/targetlasttarget
/target Twilight Elite Slayer
/focus
/cast [@focus,exists,harm] Living Bomb
/clearfocus

this is for melee adds only.... then ive a macro for target sapper.. i target drakes manually

I'll be honest, I target Drakes & Dreadblade by macro, not the Slayer.  My logic is this:

Drakes are a prio, including from the elevated start, so I use a macro to correctly target the Drake at that point.
The same macro targets the closest Drake when we're on the deck and I then manually select the other Drake during casts.   I struggle to elevate my camera position sufficiently quickly enough if I do not use a macro here - I like a 'bird's eye view' to assist with barrage soaking, but this view makes it tough to also see the drakes, hence the macro.
Melee adds I tab target as they are close enough & visible enough to do so.
The macro I use (which you also have) then targets the Dreadblade if the Drakes are both dead, thus targeting the priority melee target.

I don't set a focus on any target for this fight.  The reason is that I cycle my Living Bombs around the 3 active targets.   When the LB on the first target needs refreshing I know that the second target needs refreshing and that the third target will need refreshing immediately after that.  My macro then immediately returns me to my priority target.

The problem with the above macro is that it focuses LB on melee targets whereas the priority is on the Drakes.  Only one melee target should have an LB whilst Drakes are alive, not both.

I just tab or click :P am i a total noob now? :(

Quote from: hubbah;356980I just tab or click :P am i a total noob now? :(

Yes. But you tab or click on drake first, which makes you a lesser total noob :flirty:

I put a '/target Twilight Ass' in my target macro not too long ago, for the same camera issues :)

Quote from: TeaLeaf;356978I struggle to elevate my camera position sufficiently quickly enough if I do not use a macro here - I like a 'bird's eye view' to assist with barrage soaking, but this view makes it tough to also see the drakes, hence the macro.

Another thought to add to this:

If you are using a macro to target the Dreadblade or Slayer, then you must be swing the camera around to see the Drakes.
..and...
If you can see the Drakes on your screen then you'll have trouble seeing the close by Barrage you should soak or the Charge about to hit you.
..and..
If you can see the deck clearly enough to see the Barrages and Charges, then you aren't targeting the Drakes as early as they could be targeted.

And RGW has done it!!! Congratz to all who were in for the kill and thx to Crowdy and Amber for the help ^^

On to Spine :D

Ahhh well done peeps .... Its a fight where everyone needs to be epic at some point... Spine is very controllable and repeatable and much more fun....

Great nights raiding nicely led by mario

congrats all!!!! sorry I wasn't there :( xx