Dead Men Walking

Phases

There are 3 types of phases in thisfight.

• First is a Tank switch that happen at 90% health of one of the bosses and every 20% after that. So 90% - 70% - 50% - 30% - 10% ( have seen reports of 85,65,45,25,5 aswell ). The way the tank switch happens is that Toth will jump to Zorn, both bosses drop aggro and Zorn casts a Debuff called Fearful on everyone with in 25yards that increases damage taken by 200%. For the switch the bosses should stay at the same place and the tanks switch targets and locations. One of the bosses is generally immune to taunt for 2-5seconds right after the switch so pay attention to that.
• Second phase happens around 80% and 40% health of one of the bosses. In this phase Zorn will stand still and throw rocks at people. There is nothing special about this mechanic on Normal and should be easily healed.
• Third phase happens around 60% and 20% health of one of the bosses. In this phase reticules will spawn on the floor that people have to move out of or be close to 1 shot. In hard mode there is also a raid wide ticking damage and I am not sure if this is in story mode as well. In addition Zorn will do a frontal cone attack so the tank has to turn him away from the raid during this phase.

Positioning

The video below shows the positioning that we will be using. In a balanced group we would have ranged on Zorn and Melee on Toth. In an unbalanced group with extra Ranged, some ranged will just be assigned to Toth. In an unbalanced group with extra Melee, some melee will be assigned to switch targets during the tank swaps. This will most likely be those that have charge abilities.


Zorn and Toth have to be kept more then 30yards from each other or they will get a damage buff, They will be tanked along the right side of the canyon and will stay still during the tank switches, the tanks will switch spots not the Bosses.


Ranged will be standing by the leftside wall of the canyon and should be 25-30yards from Zorn and more then 25yards away from Toth. Position of bosses and ranged group should form a Triangle shape.


Healers will be assigned positions. For8 man there will be 1 healer with each tank and they will swap with them, they should be able to heal everyone most of the time. In 16man there will be 2 healers with each tank and 1 healer in the ranged group that focuses mostly on none tank targets.

After they are dead

After the bosses have been killed a mini boss named Handler Murdoc will drop down and attack the group.He is relatively simple and should be killable with half a group.

Other Mechanics

• There are multiple debuffs that need to be removed during the fight. This fight is quite healer instesive so if you can remove them yourself as DPS please do so else call them out on TS.
• There is a soft enrage when one of the bosses dies before the other. They should die at about the same time but Toth should always die before Zorn if there is an imbalance.
• Enrage time is reported as 5minutes and 15-30 seconds.
• DPS/healer damage reducing cooldowns should be saved for the reticule phases at around 60% and 20%. Medpacs should also be save if possible for those phases, remember that in 1.2 you can only use 1 medpac per encounter.
• There are AoE attacks from both bosses during the fight, these are easily healable and no longer have a knockback.

Videos

This shows best the positioning I want to use for this fight. (http://www.twitch.tv/ookini/b/313965964)

Below is another kill video with other Positioning.

[YOUTUBEHD]tKcijlwuZ3Y[/YOUTUBEHD]

For Thursday we will have 6 melee and 3 ranged as the group is at the moment. This means that 3 ranged will be on Zorn the whole fight, 3 melee on Toth the whole fight. Then 1 Melee will start on Zorn and 2 Melle on Toth, that will rotate with the tanks.

Well I can help with advice etc on thursday (assuming i'm on the raid instead of being exchanged as the situation may vary) as me and my republic guild managed to take them down on story mode tonight :p.  Got a rakata medic body 2 for my trooper :D.  2 rakata bodys in 2 days >> ;).  Like I said the way we done it was very good and smoothly done.  I'll post it later when I have time.

Quote from: Drazila;348375

• There are multiple debuffs that need to be removed during the fight. This fight is quite healer instesive so if you can remove them yourself as DPS please do so else call them out on TS.

I can't stress this enough. On our 16 man try only one person ever called out for the debuff to be removed. However I couldn't remove it as the call was "I've got the debuff" which is useless to me as I don't know who you are.
The correct call is "Twisted has the debuff" or "Twisted needs to be cleansed". Replace Twisted with your in-game characters name.

Why does it need to be called out? Because the healers cannot see the debuff icons on the raid frames UI. It's my only gripe with the raid frame UI and is a common theme on the official forums so until (if ever *) that's addressed it's your job to monitor your debuffs and call for assisstance when required.

* Bioware might not want to fix it as they might feel it's the job of the class to either remove it or call our for help which encourages greater team-play.

Quote from: Twisted;348815I can't stress this enough. On our 16 man try only one person ever called out for the debuff to be removed. However I couldn't remove it as the call was "I've got the debuff" which is useless to me as I don't know who you are.
The correct call is "Twisted has the debuff" or "Twisted needs to be cleansed". Replace Twisted with your in-game characters name.

Why does it need to be called out? Because the healers cannot see the debuff icons on the raid frames UI. It's my only gripe with the raid frame UI and is a common theme on the official forums so until (if ever *) that's addressed it's your job to monitor your debuffs and call for assisstance when required.

* Bioware might not want to fix it as they might feel it's the job of the class to either remove it or call our for help which encourages greater team-play.

On the note of the debuff, it is zorn that casts it.  We need to position the draugs farther apart from each other or the dps healer and tank on toth will get whacked by it where as they should only get it once when the switch happens and everyone is on zorn.  On our 16 man try which was disasterous imho :p, we had them too close to each other.  They need to be tanked up the back of the area and both at opposite sides.  What should happen is that the Sorc healer should be constantly sticking with the dps (or whatever healer does better healing) as they dps 1 boss down.  2nd tank should be on toth or zorn away from the other group and should remain in that position until te switch.  1 Healer MUST stick with this tank for the fight.  If other healer is struggling or people have debuff (twyst for example can remove it and help with aoe heals if say gromit is struggling).  

When switch happens, tanks should remain in their positions but taunt the opposite boss from what they were tanking.  DPS will remain in 1 spot and always attack the 1 boss until switch, then attack the other boss and so on.  If dps is split it makes it a HUUGEEEEE pain in the arse for healers as it is bad enough healing 1 tank, yourself and throwing an aoe to support other healer with dps group every so often.

Follow what I have said exactly and it will be cake considering a lot of my group were columi/tionese/ bits of rakata.

Am I reading it correctly that you want to kill 1 boss first then the other? cause they have to die at the same time. Every strategy I have read and video I have watched keep the bosses in position and swap the tanks, especially since you have to move to taunt the boss no matter what swapping technique you use.

I think the 16man tries went very well considering we never did 16man before, it is harder to heal then 8man and we only got one correct tank swap. We only did 4 tries where first 2 we didn't have the positions right and then we got them to 70% and 55% ( the DPS was a little skewed ).

As for the Debuffs, there are multiple debuffs, Fearful comes from Zorn and can not be removed, the other one comes from Zorn aswell but not sure when it happens or what the name is.

First I prefer swapping the locations of the tanks then the bosses and every video I have seen has swapped the tanks not the bosses. Secondly your strat has 1 healer healing 6 people and 1 healer healing 2 people that is alot harder then each healer having 4 targets to heal. I didn't find it hard at all to heal on Toth and the debuffs was the only problem on Zorn and it went fine the one try we didn't loose alot of people on the switch.

Lastly the bosses weren't too close to each other on the 16man tries, noone was getting debuffs close to Toth and after we knew the positions we had no problem with them. You want to have them as close to each other as possible without getting debuffs from Zorn since that reduces the traveling and increases DPS.

Quote from: Drazila;348874Am I reading it correctly that you want to kill 1 boss first then the other? cause they have to die at the same time. Every strategy I have read and video I have watched keep the bosses in position and swap the tanks, especially since you have to move to taunt the boss no matter what swapping technique you use.

I think the 16man tries went very well considering we never did 16man before, it is harder to heal then 8man and we only got one correct tank swap. We only did 4 tries where first 2 we didn't have the positions right and then we got them to 70% and 55% ( the DPS was a little skewed ).

As for the Debuffs, there are multiple debuffs, Fearful comes from Zorn and can not be removed, the other one comes from Zorn aswell but not sure when it happens or what the name is.

First I prefer swapping the locations of the tanks then the bosses and every video I have seen has swapped the tanks not the bosses. Secondly your strat has 1 healer healing 6 people and 1 healer healing 2 people that is alot harder then each healer having 4 targets to heal. I didn't find it hard at all to heal on Toth and the debuffs was the only problem on Zorn and it went fine the one try we didn't loose alot of people on the switch.

Lastly the bosses weren't too close to each other on the 16man tries, noone was getting debuffs close to Toth and after we knew the positions we had no problem with them. You want to have them as close to each other as possible without getting debuffs from Zorn since that reduces the traveling and increases DPS.

No basically lets say this.  The DPS will be on toth to begin with, then at the swap they dps zorn, then toth then zorn etc.  Fearful can only be healed through but it isn't though at all as long as people move outta aoe spikes.  The golden debuff from zorn can be removed by twyst.  Trust me when i say don't swap tanks.  Keep them where they are, it worked extremely well where as when we tried swapping tank locations it goes to **** as it harder to see which draug to taunt and then they gotta get in position etc, and from a healing perspective, it isn't funny.

You can go with vids or listen to the guy who done it ;)

It will still kill one 10-15% before the other. As for tanks moving or the boss moving it shouldn't make a diffrence for the tanks since there will still be 2 targets close to one tank and far from the other, you should find your target then move and either keep him there or drag him to new location. One of the tanks needs to move some either way to taunt. Fearful shouldn't be doing any damage either way it only increases damage taken from zorn, it was the other debuff that caused problems because noone said they had it on them.

The problem with your strategy is that DPS has to wait for the new target to come over loosing time and it costs at least ranged DPS alot to switch targets since many of my spells are based on other spells already cast on the target. If the bosses stay in one spot, the ranged DPS can continue DPSing Zorn. Lastly I still don't see how one healer is supposed to heal 6 target with one healer on one tank especially since AoE heals will not help any more with 4DPS on same boss since the ranged DPS should be at max ranged even if they are swapping targets( to stay out of AoE from both bosses). It is alot easier to have 1 group to heal for each healer. Lastly I would like to point out again that most of our healing problems in the 16man run was based on the fact that none of us had done 16man before and it is alot harder to do and except for the Debuff the only real problem we had on the last 2 tries was tank swaps being messy.

Quote from: Drazila;348877It will still kill one 10-15% before the other. As for tanks moving or the boss moving it shouldn't make a diffrence for the tanks since there will still be 2 targets close to one tank and far from the other, you should find your target then move and either keep him there or drag him to new location. One of the tanks needs to move some either way to taunt. Fearful shouldn't be doing any damage either way it only increases damage taken from zorn, it was the other debuff that caused problems because noone said they had it on them.

The problem with your strategy is that DPS has to wait for the new target to come over loosing time and it costs at least ranged DPS alot to switch targets since many of my spells are based on other spells already cast on the target. If the bosses stay in one spot, the ranged DPS can continue DPSing Zorn. Lastly I still don't see how one healer is supposed to heal 6 target with one healer on one tank especially since AoE heals will not help any more with 4DPS on same boss since the ranged DPS should be at max ranged even if they are swapping targets( to stay out of AoE from both bosses). It is alot easier to have 1 group to heal for each healer. Lastly I would like to point out again that most of our healing problems in the 16man run was based on the fact that none of us had done 16man before and it is alot harder to do and except for the Debuff the only real problem we had on the last 2 tries was tank swaps being messy.

- We healed with 1 healer on healing 6 and himself, (ofc i helped when needed though).

- We are much better geared than my Republic guild.  We can easily kill both of them by switching dps and it makes it (like i mentioned before) a whole lot easier on healers as this fight really isn't funny at all for them.

- The DPS will lose atleast 1 sec of dps on new boss, they will be in the middle of the kinda of smaller alley that funnels into the larger open area of the boss pit so they will be in range of both healers and bosses with no problems.

- Yeah people MUST say when they got Debuff, healers should also look for it appearing on the ops bars though (assuming they are maximized to large form).

- both tanks need only run to kind of meet each other a bit but just until they get in range of taunt then just pull boss back to their area,allowing for healers to heal group up and tanks in the meantime instead of tank passing by each other and taking hits from the bosses with the damage buff.

We can try it with the vid but all i'm saying is atleast try it my way since our group is much better geared so should have little problems, plus i've done it, saves people from having to learn it from a vid.

So basically the whole problem was the distance between the bosses. We wiped because it was too short.

The initial pull was fine but the tanks got closer to each other with switches until we moved them further apart. Healing was still problematic during the fight be that should be sorted with some practice.

Quote from: Twisted;349037So basically the whole problem was the distance between the bosses. We wiped because it was too short.

On when we started to get the hang of it, the tanks were keeping the bosses between 30 and 40m appart. When they got closer than that raid damage got bad real fast. Great work from the tanks though. Was a fun learning experience.

I'm also guessing a lot of the damage to the melee camp is physical/kinetic, as I seemed to take a lot more damage than the medium/heavy armor wearers :(

Quote from: Drazila;349038Healing was still problematic during the fight be that should be sorted with some practice.

I think the problem is that we have the tank switch and phase change at the same time, or very close to each other.
This means that the raid is at half health about 5 seconds or so before we play dodge the rocks, in which everyone incurs some splash damage. This means that everyone is running on 10-20% HP.
Where I was really struggling was bringing the melee camp back up, then deal with debuffs. This is possible, but I need full energy AND my energy replenishment CD but afterwards I can only trickle heals for about 12 seconds to get my energy back. This isn't sooooo bad because the damage going out at this point is a trickle in comparison, but I'm also having to spot heal myself, gromit and Teni which is what really breaks me. The only person I can't heal is Imhotep which oddly enough I'm very thankful for.

Also noticed that if you stand as melee bit to far from Toth and Zorn you getting hit by the rocks that pops out off the ground i dont mean the ones with the red cirkels but before that.
So what i did was staying close to him,i saw Krek sometimes walking backwards and got hit by it..:)

Quote from: Twisted;349048I think the problem is that we have the tank switch and phase change at the same time, or very close to each other.
This means that the raid is at half health about 5 seconds or so before we play dodge the rocks, in which everyone incurs some splash damage. This means that everyone is running on 10-20% HP.
Where I was really struggling was bringing the melee camp back up, then deal with debuffs. This is possible, but I need full energy AND my energy replenishment CD but afterwards I can only trickle heals for about 12 seconds to get my energy back. This isn't sooooo bad because the damage going out at this point is a trickle in comparison, but I'm also having to spot heal myself, gromit and Teni which is what really breaks me. The only person I can't heal is Imhotep which oddly enough I'm very thankful for.

Eh...no problem? :p

Quote from: Sindri;349054Eh...no problem? :p

If you were in range, my instinct would be to prio you over others which would means our DPS would have died.
In the end no one died when we pulled through so it's all good yah? :D

Quote from: Twisted;349079If you were in range, my instinct would be to prio you over others which would means our DPS would have died.
In the end no one died when we pulled through so it's all good yah? :D

Yes mein Fuhrer :p

5 minute description of boss' abilities and what to look out for.

[video=youtube;Ib7Ujz_xy3w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib7Ujz_xy3w&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

This Operations Strategy Guide will cover Toth & Zorn, the first boss battle players encounter while undertaking Denova’s Operation: Explosive Conflict. These two Drouks are terrifying, but with the appropriate set-up and a particular attention to detail, they will go down in no time.
Our strategy recommends using two tanks (one for each boss), two healers and four DPS. For the sixteen-man version of this encounter, we recommend two tanks, four healers and the remaining ten members as DPS.
Placement

The encounter area is roughly circular, with an entryway in the shape of a bottleneck. You will need to split your Operations group into two groups, with each group focusing on a different side of the encounter area, not a specific boss. This is an important distinction to make, because Toth and Zorn routinely move around the encounter area.
As an even split, you will have one tank, one healer and two DPS per boss. For the sixteen-man, you will have two tanks, two healers and five DPS per side. These groups will not switch sides during the encounter but will attack whatever target is on that side.
The only stipulation on the splitting of your party is on the assignments of your Melee DPS players. Melee DPS should always be assigned to DPS Toth, since Zorn applies a nasty debuff called Weakened. This debuff increases damage received by that player from Zorn, reflects damage dealt to Zorn back at the player and reduces the player’s damage output. The debuff itself is applied by an ability called Shriek, an AoE scream that hits any targets within 25 meters of Zorn. To top it all off, Shriek also leaves behind another DoT on those affected, Mental Anguish. Ranged DPS assigned to Zorn should always keep in mind Shriek’s destructive potential and stay at least 25 meters away.
Strategy

The fight with Toth and Zorn is divided into three different “phases” of combat, each requiring intelligent party placement. The keys to winning are maintaining a general awareness of your position in relation to the bosses, to be prepared to change targets as the fight evolves and to use situationally-appropriate DPS burns or slows. Tanks and Melee DPS have the added difficulty of needing to stay mobile.
(http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/thumbnails/41/759/630/630/tothzornplacement.jpg) (http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/41/759/tothzornplacement.jpg)
Phase One

When the fight begins, each of the two groups should report to their assigned sides. DPS should begin lightly attacking the boss, making sure to give the tanks time to build hate. When either boss reaches approximately 90% health, Toth will perform a leap to Zorn, then place a Fearful debuff on the targets within 30 meters of where he lands. It is important to note that the jump with be triggered by either boss reaching 90% first.
After the jump, it is recommended that the tanks perform a swap, taunting the other tanks’ target in an attempt to lure Toth and Zorn apart. Keeping the two Drouks apart is imperative. When the two bosses are within 30m of each other, they begin to slowly power up. Eventually this power-up will turn into a buff that makes them invulnerable as long as they are within range of one another and for a short time after being moved away from one another. The range on this ability is 30 meters, so make sure the two bosses are at least that seperated during the entire encounter. Also keep in mind that each group is assigned to a side, not a boss, the exception being the melee DPS that are assigned to Toth.
In practice, this means that after the tanks swap the DPS will be swapping targets. The ranged DPS will be standing in approximately the same area during most of the encounter, and the melee DPS for each side will have to figure out the best placement for themselves. Your healers should always be mindful of the debuffs being cast and cleanse them as quickly as possible.
(http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/thumbnails/41/757/630/630/tothzorninitialplacement.jpg) (http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/41/757/tothzorninitialplacement.jpg)
Phase Two

The start of this phase will be indicated by a operation-wide warning indicating “Toth is Berserk! Stay Away!” During this phase Toth will gain a buff called Berserk, which effectively doubles his damage output. Tanks should save cooldowns for this, and healers should be aware of heavy incoming damage.
Zorn will begin to channel an ability called Baradium Heave during this phase, pelting anyone within 25 meters with baradium boulders. Zorn will not move so long as there is a player is within 25 meters who can be targeted and damaged by rocks during this phase. Be cognizant of this fact when trying to keep Toth and Zorn apart.
As soon as one of the bosses drops below 70%, we return to Phase One. The repeat of Phase One will last from approximately 70%-60%, and another leap will happen when one of the bosses hits 60%. At this time, Phase Three will begin.
Phase Three

Zorn will begin this phase by using an ability called Sonic Paralysis, which stuns whichever tank is in combat with Zorn. We recommend that the tank use his cooldown to break this initial crowd control and return to attacking the boss. At the same time, Toth will begin distributing operations-wide AoE damage to everyone via Smash. This damage is unavoidable but light.
Additionally, red circles will begin to appear around the encounter area. After a few seconds, these circles will explode, dealing a significant amount of damage. During the appearance of red circles, your operations members should be moving constantly to avoid this damage if at all possible.
(http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/thumbnails/41/756/630/630/tothzornredcircle.jpg) (http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/41/756/tothzornredcircle.jpg)
At approximately 50%, this fight will return yet again to Phase One, and will last from 50% to 40%, with another jump happening as either boss drops below 40%. After this happens, we return to Phase Two, which will last from 40% to 30%, and is finally followed up by a repeat of Phase One, from approximately 30% to 20%. After this concludes, Phase Three will be repeated, with one small change: the Zorn tank will become stunned again, but will be unable to break it this time. Healers should be aware of this and have heavy heals ready. This repeat of Phase Three will end at 10%, which will see a repeat of Phase One.
As one boss dies, the other will gain a linked enrage that will increase his damage dealt. It is for this reason that your raid leader should monitor the health of each boss and assign DPS burns or slows accordingly. For our strategy, we recommend getting each as close to 10% as possible, and then burning one down before finally killing the other.
For ease of reference during this encounter, please refer to the following list of phases, so you can know when and what to expect at the various percentages of life per boss. Please note that these percentages refer to either of the bosses life totals hitting the amount listed:

• Phase One : 100% â€" 90%
• Leap : 90%
• Phase One : 90% â€" 80%
• Phase Two : 80% â€" 70%
• Phase One : 70% â€" 60%
• Leap : 60%
• Phase Three : 60% â€" 50%
• Phase One : 50% â€" 40%
• Leap : 40%
• Phase Two : 40% â€" 30%
• Phase One : 30% â€" 20%
• Phase Three : 20% â€" 10% (Zorn unbreakable stun)
• Burn Phase : 10% â€" 0%

• Final Phase: Handler Murdok

(http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/thumbnails/41/758/630/630/tothzornmurdok.jpg) (http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/41/758/tothzornmurdok.jpg)
As both Drouks bite the dust, their handler will drop down from his campsite above, obviously irritated with your lack of regard for his favorite pets. This enemy can hardly be called a boss; he deals moderate damage but has relatively low health. He should be easily managed and is more of a “tank and spank” than the two Drouks themselves.
If you keep these recommendations in mind, you should find that you have each boss down in no time! But Denova will not be so easily conquered, and in our next guide we will turn to Firebrand and Stormcaller, the next two bosses in Operation: Explosive Conflict.

I think we should at least use the tanking spots to try and stop knock backs. That's a huge problem all the time SM, and only gets worse HM.

Did a pug run with Aeon on this last night.

We had the range / healing camp right at the end of the cave, so run all the way through.
This allows the tanks to split as the bosses naturally are. This is key as the distance is enough but thanks to the walls any tank knock-back doesn't move the bosses further before.
This also means that there is a lot less movement, so more DPS uptime.