Stuff that we want to discuss and consider implementing before and during MoP.
Please add stuff to the list as you think of it.
- Raid days - do we switch to Wed? What steps needed to check beforehand
- DKP minbid for tier token pieces
- PTR Raid testing for MoP
- Re-apply for RGT raid spot?
- Recruitment process in prep for MoP
- Check which class people will be main playing in MoP
Now here's a thought:
If MoP loot systems are changing, what role does DKP play?? :frusty:
Thanks Blizz, again. :angry:
Extracting the info from the 'RGT & MoP' thread, this is how it is shaping up:
Tanks:
Whytee
Halbarad
Healers:
Jas
Slush
Puja
?
Melee DPS:
Zaul
Guru
Ranged DPS:
Teaell
Maldaror
Jesung
Hubbah
Incendia (open to re-roll)
Ayla
Expressed interest:
Tessy NOT RAIDING IN MOP
Sheepy NEVER IN GAME
Re the raid days question in the OP, I'll toss a PM out to raiders and collate the answers here in this post based upon the above future RGT membership.
Member|Wed|Thu|Sun|Mon|TueTANKSWhytee|N|Y|Y|Y|Y
Halbarad|||||
?|||||
HEALERSJas|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y
Slush|Y|Y|N|Y|Y
?|||||
?|||||
MELEE DPSPuja|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y
Scream|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y
?|||||
RANGED DPSTeaell|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y
Maldaror|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y
Jesung|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y
Hubbah|N|Y|Y|Y|Y
Incendia|N|Y|Y|Y|Y
?|||||
INTERESTEDTessy|N|Y|Y|N|Y
Tirkad|Y|N|Y|N|Y
Sheepy|||||[/table]
As it seems that the MoP LFR loot system will only apply to LFR, I'll raise the min bid loot issue again.
The problem:
Certain classes get tier loot or shared loot at much lower DKP cost than some other classes. In a 25 man raid this was never a problem as there were generally always enough of the same token class or shared loot classes to make bidding competitive. However in a 10 man raid we are seeing much lower or no competition for some loot and this leads to some classes having an unfair advantage when competing for shared loot.
Since the star of DS tier tokens have on average cost:
13 DKP for Vanquisher (20 tokens went for 1-5 DKP)
17 DKP for Protector (25 tokens for 1-5 DKP)
24 DKP for Conqueror (13 tokens for 1-5 DKP)
All of this is consistent with what I posted here:
http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?36114-Lies-Damn-Lies-Statisitcs-amp-Loot-Drops
Possible solution:
I think we need to have a minimum bid price for tier tokens as minimum requirement, possibly for other items too in order to preserve some kind of dkp equality.
As you raise the minimum price of the tokens the disparity steadily reduces.
MinBid 0: Ave 18.0, Max Range between token class averages 10.5 DKP
MinBid 5: Ave 19.8, Max Range 9.8 DKP
MinBid 10: Ave 22.5, Max Range 7.3 DKP
MinBid 15: Ave 25.3, Max Range 6.1 DKP
MinBid 20: Ave 28.3, Max Range 5.0 DKP
MinBid 25: Ave 31.5, Max Range 4.1 DKP
MinBid 30: Ave 34.9, Max Range 3.4 DKP
MinBid 35: Ave 38.9, Max Range 2.6 DKP
On a graph, the sweet spot for minimising the spread for minimum amount of increase in minimum bid price appears to be a MinBid of between 11-12 DKP.
Other Systems:
I'm not completely against other systems, but I still like the bidding system as it is simple, creates an excitement over loot and allows personal preference to dictate loot value. I'm not a fan of fixed price or overly complicated systems like EPGP. Systems that predetermine the value of an item misvalue the item to an individual on a regular basis, bidding allows that flexibility, but with bidding comes the class imbalance issue on shared loot.
Worth some discussion.....
Quote from: TeaLeaf;352772Member|Wed|Thu|Sun|Mon|Tue
TANKS
Whytee|N|Y|Y|Y|Y
Halbarad|||||
?|||||
HEALERS
Jas|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y
Slush|Y|Y|N|Y|Y
?|||||
?|||||
MELEE DPS
Puja|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y
Scream|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y
?|||||
RANGED DPS
Teaell|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y
Maldaror|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y
Jesung|Y|Y|Y|Y|Y
Hubbah|N|Y|Y|Y|Y
Incendia|N|Y|Y|Y|Y
?|||||
INTERESTED
Tessy|N|Y|Y|N|Y
Tirkad|Y|N|Y|N|Y
Sheepy|||||[/table]
Given these survey results, is it safe to tick this item off the agenda and conclude that we have reviewed the best days for RGT to raid and will remain raiding on Thur, Sun & Tue?
What is still to be discussed is Puja's situation re healing or melee dps.
Well it may be possible to use the wed as a temp day at the start of mop just to get a jump on some guilds but im not lossing any sleep if we drop down the ranks by a day
Ragards loot i think our dkp tool has the option for fix bidding as long as its easy to admin we just need to set the magic number
Quote from: JonnyAppleSeed;353058Well it may be possible to use the wed as a temp day at the start of mop just to get a jump on some guilds but im not lossing any sleep if we drop down the ranks by a day
Ragards loot i think our dkp tool has the option for fix bidding as long as its easy to admin we just need to set the magic number
I agree with everything Jas says... Although I can't make Wednesdays regularly, I could make the odd one of for new raid content etc.
I'll have a look at the DKP stuff to see if we can make it easy, otherwise we just state minimum bid of xx for tier pieces.
Mop Token Classes:
Protector: Hunter, Monk, Shaman, Warrior
Conqueror: Paladin, Priest, Warlock
Vanquisher: Death Knight, Druid, Mage, Rogue
http://mop.wowhead.com/search?q=Shadowy
Protector: Slush, Puja, Hubbah, Ayla
Conqueror: Whytee, Halbarad, Teaell, Jesung, Tessy?
Vanquisher: Jas, Maldaror, Incendia, Zaul
This still leaves Conqueror in a nasty position imo, especially if Tessy wants to play pala. I'd like us to have a chat on TS to see what can be done about this as it is painful with the loot distribution we're seeing. TO have cleared all heroic content over a month ago before I get to see a second piece of tier loot is just frikking stupid and I don't want us to go int MoP in the same situation if we can avoid it. At the moment the class imbalance means we have tanks that are geared slowly, our best dps is geared slowly and, well, a second priest slows us all down.
I'll add TTR to the list if I may. Time To Raid. i.e. how long after launch we schedule our first raid.
Quote from: TeaLeaf;353032On a graph, the sweet spot for minimising the spread for minimum amount of increase in minimum bid price appears to be a MinBid of between 11-12 DKP.
I'd like us to get this finalised if we can well before MoP comes out. I'd propose:
Minbid of 12 DKP for a tier token for mainspec use.
Minbid of 1 DKP for a tier token for offspec use.
It won't eliminate disadvantage, but it will reduce the disparity across the classes considerably.
I also think we need to start planning how to introduce this change to Amber. My preferred route is to make it part of the class rebalance discussion and suggest that as part of that we've concluded we'd like to move someone from the RGT pala/priest/warlock group into the RGW pala/priest/warlock group (of whom there are very few).
Thoughts?
Quote from: TeaLeaf;355641I'd like us to get this finalised if we can well before MoP comes out. I'd propose:
Minbid of 12 DKP for a tier token for mainspec use.
Minbid of 1 DKP for a tier token for offspec use.
It won't eliminate disadvantage, but it will reduce the disparity across the classes considerably.
that seems fairly fair, not to high but still enough to get a rotation going. with regards to Amber why cant we just say we think he sucks and dont want him in our raidgroup? :P But ye use the class balance as a excuse to move him over to RGW
My only concern with the class balance being used is that as far as I know we still don't have confirmation from Tessy that he will be raiding on the Pally. I think we need an answer before we play the class card in case Amber asks about it.
Let's nail him down asap then, I'm pretty sure the answer will be yes as the other classes he mentioned are not options.
Had a PM from Siff this morning and he'll not be raiding in MoP. I think he wants to, but work & RL issues are limiting his time.
This puts real pressure on our healer camp which is now down to 3: Jas, Slush, Puja, (Amber not included). So the question is, do we need another paladin?
Protector: Hunter, Monk, Shaman, Warrior (4)
Conqueror: Paladin, Priest, Warlock (3)
Vanquisher: Death Knight, Druid, Mage, Rogue (4)
Protector: Slush, Puja, Hubbah, Ayla, Guru (5)
Conqueror: Whytee, Halbarad, Teaell, Jesung (4)
Vanquisher: Jas, Maldaror, Incendia, Zaul (4)
I'm guessing that with 2 paladin tanks the majority of the time we'll be ok without another paladin.
A disc priest would be nice, but we're also not locked into that as I can play that as an offspec spec on an 'as needed' basis.
One alternative route might be to use this as an opportunity to get a Monk healer into the group as from what I have seen these should be seriously valuable come MoP. We could either recruit an unknown for this, or get someone to re-roll to this class: Incendia springs to mind as he is always offering to do whatever it takes for the guild re classes. We already have 2 mages, so this would help solve another class balance issue and we could look to recruit a boomkin to fill that open spot.
I'd quite fancy a go at monk healing, but it would hurt my ability to operate as a raid leader and therefore I am not convinced that's the correct route for the team.
Tricky decision, but we need to agree our approach before approaching Amber with the bad news.
What say yee?
It would be nice to fill the healing void from inside as it'll probably be easier to recruit a good dps than a healer. We also have people lined up to play their 2nd choice (Ayla would rather heal, Puja would rather dps). Zaul isn't really working out in dps but I can't remember him having the issues on his pally (other than not listening properly). Would a 3 way shuffle help at all? Zaul to Tirkad, Puja to melee, Ayla to Heals and get a boomkin in on dps? I know Milli likes playing his priest so that would be another healing option, he might be up for levelling a monk healer but that could take a few weeks after MoP hits.
Just throwing some thoughts out there that may or may not have merit. We should discuss before/after Sundays raid.
The worst part of tess no being in for mop means we cant use the class re balance as a reason for the amber change.
Yep, we talked a bit about that strategy the other night and realised it might backfire on us if we did, so I think we might just need to bite the bullet. I'd like us to have a chat about how we fulfill the healer spots though first, we need to decide what we're going to fill the spot with as there are several options.
Amber discussion happened tonight - well done Jas.
Amber will go to RGW in MoP.
List updated:
Tanks:
Whytee
Halbarad
Healers:
Jas
Slush
Puja
?
Melee DPS:
Zaul
Guru
Ranged DPS:
Teaell
Maldaror
Jesung
Hubbah
Incendia (open to re-roll)
Ayla
Protector: Hunter, Monk, Shaman, Warrior (4 classes)
Conqueror: Paladin, Priest, Warlock (3 classes)
Vanquisher: Death Knight, Druid, Mage, Rogue (4 classes)
Protector: Slush, Puja, Hubbah, Ayla, Guru (5)
Conqueror: Whytee, Halbarad, Teaell, Jesung (4)
Vanquisher: Jas, Maldaror, Incendia, Zaul (4)
Melee
Zaul either passes or fails as a DK, there is no option to have him in as a healer. We really need the melee dps to have a tank offspec so there is no option for Puja to go enhancement.
Healer
One idea is that we talk to Incendia and ask him to re-roll to Monk. We can take him on the priest initially if he prefers, but the aim would be to use him as a healer asap and get him into the raid. The major downside to this is then we end up with a massive number of Protector token classes.
A better idea was to offer one of the shaman the opportunity to re-roll as a monk. We'll send a PM to the shaman and see what they want to do.
This latter choice would then allow Incenedia to re-roll boomkin if he wanted.
Proposed PM for shaman:
QuoteHello Ayla, Puja & Slush
Firstly, may I ask you treat this PM as totally confidential.
DMR Council have good reason for wishing to keep this information private at the moment and would be grateful if you could respect these wishes and not discuss the content of this PM with anyone other than DMR Council and each other (no in-game or TS chat others may see/hear please!).
DMR Council have been putting a lot of work into preparing for MoP and making sure we have the right numbers in each class and token group to ensure that we make good & swift raid progress when MoP launches. We've concluded that we want to see a Mistweaver (healer) monk in the RGT raid team as they are looking very strong in Beta and Blizzard will almost certainly design content which will showcase their abilities in the new raid content. For your information, Monk will be joining the Protector tier token group which is currently just Warrior, Hunter, Shaman.
We do not want to recruit a Monk as this would make the body count in the Protector group too high - currently it holds 5 people and 6 would be crazy. So we wanted to ask you if one of you wanted to re-roll to Mistweaver Monk for MoP.
We appreciate that this will mean levelling a toon from scratch, but feel that the benefits will be substantial. We also feel that with the current XP gains when levelling in older content should mean that reaching L90 quickly on a Monk should not take too long, especially when you would have the support & help of the raid group when gearing up.
Our intention is for RGT to go into MoP with 4 healers and the monk question is the last we need to resolve before MoP arrives. We really want one of these 4 to be a Mistweaver Monk and would be delighted if one of you accepted the challenge of rolling & mastering a new class for MoP. This would be the only Monk in the RGT raid team.
Please have a think about this and let us know if it is of interest so that we can bring our MoP planning to fruition.
Incendia is happy to roll a Boomkin so will do for MoP. We have offered him the opportunity to join RGT runs on the boomkin for the first 5 bosses if the group allows.
Slush & Puja are a No.
Spoke to Ayla and she wants to do ti to get back to healing. Spent some time talking through class and she is excited by the opportunity.
List updated:
Tanks: - FULL
Whytee
Halbarad
Healers: - FULL
Jas
Slush
Puja
Ayla (interested in rolling mistweaver for us)
Melee DPS: - FULL
Zaul
Guru
Ranged DPS: - FULL
Teaell
Maldaror
Jesung
Hubbah
MÃlly (re-rolled boomkin as per our offer)
?(potentially free if we want to push another ranged into the camp)
Tier Token splits:
Protector: Slush, Puja, Hubbah, Ayla, Guru (5)
Conqueror: Whytee, Halbarad, Teaell, Jesung (4)
Vanquisher: Jas, Maldaror, MÃlly, Zaul (4)
I think that there is enough info out there now and we have spoken to enough people that we need to start making formal announcements as to what is happening. If we don't then someone will accidentally mention something anyway and I'd rather we kept ahead of the rumour mills. How's about this for a draft:
Quote from: JasAs has been well publicised on these forums, the DMR Council has been working hard behind the scenes trying to prepare both RGT & RGW for successful MoP raiding when the expansion launches in September. We've also been trying to work out how minimise some of the tier token class balance problems we have seen and the amount of raid-queue time some roles have had to endure (notably for healers in RGT).
We're delighted to say that we're reaching the end of these preparations and can announce the following:
RGT:
RGT will be entering MoP with a smaller group than we had in Cataclysm and with a very much improved tier token balance.
Tanks:
Whytee - prot paladin
Halbarad - prot paladin
Healers:
Jas - resto druid
Slush - resto shaman
Puja - resto shaman
Ayla - mistweaver monk
Melee DPS:
Zaul - UH DK
Guru - arms warrior
Ranged DPS:
Teaell - shadow priest
Maldaror - mage
Jesung - warlock
Hubbah - hunter
MÃlly - boomkin
This means the tier token groups will have very equal numbers: Protector(5), Conqueror(4), Vanquisher(4). This much improved balance should help us no end in MoP by increasing the average gear-up rate for each member and this in turn can only improve our chances of good raid progress. We'd like to thank both Incendia (Milly) and Ayla for accepting re-roll challenges in MoP that will help us achieve this balance.
It is with regret that not all current RGT members will have a raid spot in MoP. Notably the healer camp has had to be reduced in size to accommodate both an improved tier token balance and reduced 'out of instance' time. In particular we would like to single out & give special thanks to Amberleigh who has agreed to join RGW to allow RGT to achieve the raid size reduction and tier token group balance improvements. Amber's significant raid experience with RGT will be a welcome addition to RGW and will provide increased strength and stability for what we hope will be an even stronger RGW raid group in MoP. RGW have typically raided without a priest so it will make a nice change to have full priest buffs and raidwalls! We'd also like to thank Tessy who is retiring from raiding at the end of Cataclysm due to RL time constraints.
RGT is now officially 'Ready for MoP Raiding' and we can't wait for the expansion to go Live.
Similar work is underway for DMR's RGW raid group and more information will follow shortly once we have spoken to the people concerned and finalised plans. Watch this space!
We then need to rapidly push through on RGW's plans, finalise & announce them. This will give players 4 weeks or so notice before MoP hits which I think is about right.
Its looking good .....
I would give it a few days (mainly for amber to get his feet under the rgw table) then go live
Posted as per Jas tonight.
With Mal stepping down (as per the PM I forwarded), we need another mage.
It would be nice to offer it to Milli, but tbh he seems excited to do boomkin and it's easier to find a mage than it is a boomkin. Still, I'm tempted to just check with him out of courtesy before recruiting a mage. That seem fair to y'all?
aye, that seems fair
I caught up with him just now, he's going to stick to boomkin. This is actually good news, because it's a darn sight easier to recruit a half-decent mage!
aye agreed, I haven't seen him play his boomkin but I'm sure he cant be worse then me and I'm bold enough to say I'm decent at it :P