Dead Men Walking

i'd like to garner intrest in a 3rd raid group for mop, i know we have 2 fully raiding groups at the moment.
i'm just throwing the bone out there, to see if i get any bites,

this is just a post to see if theres is any intrest.

At the moment we have 3-4 people who want to raid and who are not assigned to raid groups.   A third raid group needs roughly 15-16 people to become viable, so post up if you are interested please.

I can confirm that getting a raid group up and running takes a Sith load of effort, it took me lots of badgering TL and JAS in April 2011 and it does impact on the guild. Not that I ran it :roflmao: as we would be on 5 mans still

I think there will be plenty of guild run MOP "LFR" impromptu groups as well as the weekend runs, many people will have alts (some with better gear than mains) and will try to run them through.
GL anyway :D

Quote from: Sneakytiger;357007this is just a post to see if theres is any intrest.

If you have 3-4 people already... That might be something to build on. As far as I know, the officers have put down alot of work in RGW with joining with alts, helping with tacts and RL'ing...
RGW is old enough, big enough and confident enough to stand on its own 24-30 feet now.. And I doubt the officers will be as motivated as before now when we have a new expansion inc :-)

But remember, we have never seen any RGT main in a RGW raid or vice versa... And I think we all appreciate that so there is no confusion about lockouts and "who has been where at what reset?". -Rule of thumb from officers :-)

And, btw... great initiative! We like it!

i'm willing to put all the time and effort i can into getting a 3rd raid group up and running.
if it means recruiting,doing runs with ppl to help, farming mats for ppl,etc i'll do it
i'd admin raid grp 3 if we get it going, i'll take all the pressure.

I think you have a better shot at making 1 25mqn group and 1 10 man group

Quote from: Arcticfire;357090I think you have a better shot at making 1 25mqn group and 1 10 man group

That leaves either RGW or RGT out of a job and the third raid group 31 people short instead of 12. :P

Seriously though, for reasons explained many times before, we're not going 25 man - there's a reason that so few guilds raid 25 man and why most of them have hit problems and imploded.

i'm not gonna be leading a 25 man at anytime, its 10 man i'm looking at.
we have two 10 man raid groups that are well established.
all i'm looking to do is create a 3rd 10 man raid grp.

lol, you make it sound like its nothing!
Making a 3rd group will be harder then making the 2nd group as there are barely any days left that there are no raids, so low amount of alts being able to help.

That may be so, but there's nowt wrong with asking if there is sufficient interest for it.

we have more socials jioning all the time, and i can see more ppl joining when mop is launched, even if the 3rd grp is social raiding thats fine.
i'm willing to do whatever it takes to get it up and running.
so lets get back on topic guys, i need your help without it, it wont happen.
and the last thing i want to do is be a social raider in some other guild i'd rather be a raid leader of a 3rd grp in this guild.
lets try and make this happen guys.
less of the negative more of the postive plz.

GOGO SNEAKY! if ya get enough intrest i will join ya if its a social raiding grp :P

Do all the socials read the forums? I suggest u ask an officer to put it on guild message of the day after pirate day.

It shall be done.

i can bring rogue :) if i unpark her :) or this depending on how things go :)

I think its great what you are doing Sneaky but it is alot of work.

As you say we are getting more and more people into the guild as socials but want to raid. Also when a new expac comes out alot of the "older" players come back also. So it could be quite viable.

Im gona be busy with Grim and Mario running RGW but if you need a hand with anything give me a shout. :)


So to all the new socials/want to raid peeps....post your interest here so we can see what numbers we are looking at.

i've decided to start it as a social raid grp first and see how we do, so plz, whisper me in game if your intrested and we will see if we can get a ds10 socail grp together before mop hits.

Im not begin negative about the whole idea, not at all I highly encourage it.
I just have the idea that you think its easier then it really is, I can know caus I made that mistake when trying to set up RGW :P

heres the RGZ SET UP for mop, please let me know what spot your intrested in.
Tanks: deadstop dk if needed.

Healers:


Ranged DPS: bamby or bigbadd

put me down for heals on Bell!

I'm hoping to get a spot on either of the main raid teams, but whilst I'm waiting for that I'll happily come along and heal on Midd (resto druid) for you if needed.

Im new to the guild along with midd both experienced raiders id like to come along as a tank - monk.
If it stays social raiding only I would say that if a spot arose on the main team I would take it.

it will start as social i'm looking at friday nights, we will start in mop.
its all good, more the merrier.

Quote from: Sneakytiger;357670it will start as social i'm looking at friday nights

so you have 2 options :

RGF where F= friday   :lmfao:
RGS where S= social   :roflmao:

I propose a vote by the entire guild!!

i vote for RGF!!

I vote for no name for now, until things sorted and we know what's what. And how many people we have etc and that this whole venture I going to work.
Sent from my Lumia the light of my life.....

well i have several chars, who could fill the slots for you.
So if you need a tank, healer, ranged or melee dps, i can come along, and fill a slot.

I think we're talking non-raid people initially Amber as the dates would almost certainly clash with one or other raid group.  At the moment it seems clear there are not enough to form an additional raid group.  We will of course continue to organise social raids for non-raid nights and it would be nice to see several groups forming in MoP once we have levelled up alts to play with.

At one stage, I was looking to head back into raiding but to be honest, i'm not really all that sure that I want to now.  It seems like it's just become too much hard work all around.  However, if I did decided I wanted to raid a bit again, it would be mage DPS for me.
I also think that maybe a change over in the other groups might not hurt.  Firstly, it's just plain nice to have a change every now and then and play with different people.  The other reason, with set groups, it gives absolutely no chance for other/new people to raid (especially if "RG3" doesn't happen) and you could end up missing out on very good raiding players.  My opinion on this is to hold 'auditions' when people are ready and go from there.  I kinda feel that picking the raid groups now, before the expansion is even released is jumping the gun.  Talent trees are changing and new gear will be about when people are ready to raid so why not give everyone an equal chance of raiding?  I'll be honest, i came back because i liked the look of MoP and wanted to give raiding a go but at the moment, i'd just be wasting my time even thinking about it.  
Anyway, that's my little bit over and done with (for now)!!

Raid groups have been picked to try and balance the tier groups as evenly as possible.  Officers and raid leaders in guild have put an awful lot of work into organising raids and their respective raid groups so am sure every angle has been looked at and covered.  It's not as if they just pick any player or character am sure they look at it from multiple angles.

Quote from: Davemk;357924At one stage, I was looking to head back into raiding but to be honest, i'm not really all that sure that I want to now.  It seems like it's just become too much hard work all around.  

I'm not really sure what you mean by that Dave?   Raiding is one of the few parts of the game that does require effort, precisely because of the shared responsibility with the rest of the team.

I think you have raised some valid concerns though Dave, so if I may be allowed to speak for the rest of Council I'll try to outline how we see things.  I'll start off by saying that we're by no means ruling out additional raid groups, but we are realistic about what it takes to run one.

Most people simply do not understand the time & effort that goes into ensuring that the raid members have a fun and productive evening.   The raid leaders & officers spend more time out of the raids doing the planning & administration than we ever do in the raid killing bosses.   There's a ratio of about 2:1, Admin to Play time whilst we're farming our way through content and once we get back into progression raiding it scales to about 3:1.  With that in mind the raid leaders and officers have been planning how to make MoP raiding successful for a considerable period of time.  Again, to give people an idea of how much work has gone in to the planning stage, the first post in our MoP planning discussion was started on 15th April 2012 at 03:20 PM.   We've really tried hard to make this work for everyone, to suit people's raid days, to remove the class imbalances in the raid groups, the balance the tier token groups, etc.   This planning had to be done in advance of MoP and any new raid group would need not only sufficient bodies to fill the group, but also a sufficient support infrastructure.

In my opinion, it would be slightly daft to level up to 90 in MoP and only then open discussions about raiding, who can raid, which day to raid, which classes we need, etc.  You might well have wished to play a mage, but you might have then got to L90 and found 5 other mages, 4 tanks and no healers ready to form a raid group with you.   That would be a disaster, so clearly planning is required and that is what we have worked so hard to deliver so that people can immediately start exploring Mogu'shan Vaults when they become available.  

You're right that it is nice to play with different people from time to time, however that ignores the fact that the raid groups are designed to accommodate members' requirement to raid on different evenings.   Most of the raid cannot switch to other raid nights and still meet the attendance requirements of the relevant group.  That's why we run social raids at the weekends where we get to experience the social diversity within the guild.   If sufficient people show interest in a 3rd raid group then we will look at how to best support it, but it does not mean that we kick existing raiders out to give someone else a go.

The current structure does allow the chance for new people to raid, but it does not mean that everyone will get a chance to raid immediately they re-activate their account.   There are other considerations, like for example when you noted your wish to raid on a mage both raid groups already had two mages in each of them!  

A new expansion always increases interest in the game, but unfortunately we have had a few people return to WoW in recent weeks who have shown an interest in raiding but not realised that these things are planned a little further ahead.  If the numbers of interested people are there, then we'll see what can be done about a 3rd raid group.   Otherwise it will be down to waiting for a spot to become available in the appropriate raid group.    Active guild members who have levelled their toon, geared them properly for the content they have access to and demonstrated their ability to perform by participating in the social raids we run and talking with other members on Teamspeak will then be noticed and considered when a raid spot opens up.  Some current raiders can attest to this system as they were Social members and are now Raid members.

I hope that this helps explains things for you, but please let me know if you have any other questions.

thanx for doing that tealeaf saves me.

now a few points i need to make

1: 3rd raid grp will happen.
2: most likely called RGF(raid group fridays)
3: it will be a socail raid grp to start with and then a proper raid grp if it's a success
4: i will be leading, putting the time in, to make sure people are having a happy and productive raid right, and most importantly a fun night.
if any 1 at all has any worrys or concerns plz pass them my way or one of the wow guild admins

thank you, and keep it frosty.

Quote from: TeaLeaf;357928The current structure does allow the chance for new people to raid, but it does not mean that everyone will get a chance to raid immediately they re-activate their account.   There are other considerations, like for example when you noted your wish to raid on a mage both raid groups already had two mages in each of them!

I don't seem to remember anywhere that I have said that I expect to get straight back into raiding and quite offended that you decided to take my comment that way!  However, I don't think it's unfair to expect a fair chance at it.  You also mention the time in which I registered my interest, had I realised that it was a first-come, first-served basis I would of posted a lot sooner.  However, as it said something along the lines of 'register your interest and we'll get it sorted once we know who's interested', this implies that it shouldn't matter when you actually make your post.

As some people here know, I am very aware of what it takes to get raids going (being part of many top raid groups in the past) and don't expect things to be sorted at the last minute.  However, there is no way that people can predict what is going to happen once the expansion actually hits.  I doubt this is going to happen but, you could get half the raid force decide to quit after playing the expansion for a few months because there are changes and stuff that make things undesirable, which would then make a lot of the planning pointless because you'll have to fill all those spots again.

Anyway, I just wanted to make my point and hope that someone actually gets my point.  I'm probably not going to get MoP until the end of the month due to funds but once I do, I will probably give the 3rd raid group a chance if possible and see what happens.

I think the main issue here is one of 'quart into a pint pot'.   We'll try to provide raid places as natural turnover (people retiring, changing jobs etc) & demand (e.g. a third raid group) allows, but we can't remove existing raiders to artificially create that opportunity.   In that sense there is an element of first-come first-served as the ones already doing it get the first chance to maintain their raid spot.   Anything else would be unfair.

The main way a third raid group will happen is if sufficient people log on, gear appropriately in heroics and then push hard each week to form a group, pugging to fill gaps, adding additional members organically and then recruiting to fill the final few spots to solidify the group.  So it takes a good few months of commitment from people to make the group a long-term success.

Quote from: TeaLeaf;357977I think the main issue here is one of 'quart into a pint pot'.   We'll try to provide raid places as natural turnover (people retiring, changing jobs etc) & demand (e.g. a third raid group) allows, but we can't remove existing raiders to artificially create that opportunity.   In that sense there is an element of first-come first-served as the ones already doing it get the first chance to maintain their raid spot.   Anything else would be unfair.

No, the point here is trying to be fair to everyone and not just those that are currently raiding.  I'm not suggesting that people get kicked out just to make spots available, but surely it's fair that everyone has a chance?  If it's a first-come first-served basis then say that!  Don't give people the option to register their interest when it's just going to basically be the same people again. It would of been easier to say "Current raiders; let us know if you're not planning on raiding and we'll fill your spots".  At least then people know that it's going to be the same people again and not get their hopes up.
At the end of the day, i've tried to make a point and it's been missed/ignored and some of my other points have been glossed over as well.  There's just no point me replying any more as the point will just keep getting missed and no one will address the fact that there might actually be a point to what i'm saying.  I'm not saying that people should be kicked out of the group, i'm trying to advocate a bit of fairness in how it was done.  But hey, i'm just someone that's been out of the game for a few months so obviously my opinion doesn't matter!!

Quote from: Davemk;357982It would of been easier to say "Current raiders; let us know if you're not planning on raiding and we'll fill your spots".  At least then people know that it's going to be the same people again and not get their hopes up.

Dave, what you are suggesting was precisely what we did.

Quote from: TeaLeaf;348998With the Mists of Pandaria expansion due later this year the DMR Council wanted to outline some initial plans for RGT raiding in MoP and to find out from RGT members what their own plans are for raiding in MoP.

Can all RGT members please post in this thread if they intend to:

The same post went out for RGW members, so you're criticising us for doing what you say we should have done!

I'm sorry to see that you continue to believe we did something that was unfair, but I'm really not sure what we are meant to have done. I think you're probably getting unnecessarily frustrated because you misread the original post.

I spent quite a long time writing what I thought was a complete answer in reply to the points you raised, but if I am missing something specific then let me know and I promise I will do my best to answer it.    Likewise though I suggest you go and re-read the posts we made on 19th April (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?35712-RGW-Raiding-amp-MoP-Important) as they were addressed, as you suggested to existing raid members, so you were not misled or given false hope when you posted your interest in MoP raiding some 4 months later.

Quote from: Davemk;357974I don't seem to remember anywhere that I have said that I expect to get straight back into raiding and quite offended that you decided to take my comment that way!

Well, my last and only post now on this is about this quote.  It seems to me that it's fine for you to make an assumption about what i'm actually saying but then not apologise once I point out that you've made a very incorrect assumption but hey, I guess that must of been missed in the walls of text that don't actually address my point: Where is the fairness to the entire guild/additional people that would like a chance to raid?

But don't worry about it, not expecting anything else now and my part in this thread is well and truly done.

Enjoy MoP folks and all the best.

Quote from: Davemk;356005I think I might try and start raiding again in MoP and will be looking to use my mage as main.

What else are we meant to assume Dave when you post that you want to start raiding again in a thread for RGW raiders and tell us which toon you want to use?  Should we assume it means "we can ignore him, he doesn't mean now"?  If you want an apology then I apologise for that single small element which I got wrong.   I'll wait to see if you now apologise for not reading the OP properly.

You know what, it seems I did misread the original post slightly so I apologise for that but as far as I'm concerned, that doesn't change the point I was trying to make.

With regards to the quote you have posted, where exactly does it say there that I re-activate my account and expect a raid spot straight away?  Pretty sure I said "Might try and start raiding in MoP".  I'm confused where in that sentence I state that I expect a raid spot immediately?  This is my point, you've twisted what I said to make a point and make me seem like i'm only doing this because I want an immediate raid spot.  Let's also take into account the fact that, after the fist sentence which is obviously me (in a roundabout way) stating that I would be up for giving the social raid group a go, everything is about everyone and not just myself.  So again, I also think that the personal digs at my situation weren't called for, especially when they were totally misread in the first place.

Dave, I think you're being deliberately obtuse here, I never said it was you, I was giving examples to support the generic process.   But let's be more constructive, how about you set out the way you feel it should have been handled please.

Quote from: TeaLeaf;357996Dave, I think you're being deliberately obtuse here, I never said it was you, I was giving examples to support the generic process.   But let's be more constructive, how about you set out the way you feel it should have been handled please.

No I don't believe I am.  Who else exactly would you be referring to when you are replying to my post and you're bringing up my exact situation?  Either way, don't give a **** anymore.  I'm done with this thread.
Cheers
Dave

Dave - I've sat back and read the posts and not said anything.  You being a "insert not so nice word here" about things.  
You are kicking off at things for no reason, your posts have been answered and you are still not happy - you still try to nit-pick about those answers

But I think you are being completely out of order with the dis-respect you are showing the guys who put in so much work for the guild and especially behind the scenes.
Prime example is the language you choose to use in this community forum.

QuoteI'm done with this thread.

Well that seems to be a good place to leave it and to calm.

I'm closing this thread and kindly request all to step back, take a seat in the grass and look at the pixies for a while. :)

Pixies woot!!!!!!!!!