Thoughts.
Do we need to? We seem to be able to fill the server pretty easily.
True but dMw vs the world cs style:woot2:
Yeah that'd be pretty sweet.
Can we get some admin thoughts on this?
Sorry, i hadn't posted anything as I wasn't 100% sure what the plan is, all I know is that we plan on having the server public at some point, Blunt are you able to clarify what we are doing about the server going public?
I don't see why not, we don't play the 'dmw way' any more so the gameplay is essentially like a pub server already.
Sorry, I missed this thread earlier.
It is our intention to go public at some point in the near future.
Some things have to be done 1st though, eg. server 'adverts' and rules reminders.
I'll try to get things moving :)
Quote from: b00n;362263I don't see why not, we don't play the 'dmw way' any more so the gameplay is essentially like a pub server already.
I can't say I've noticed too much of that.
We are in discussion about the rules on public server, but tbh we shouldn't need them on a private server as we are all supposed to play TCS anyway.
I think the influx of 'new' members who hadn't played with us in CSS may have led to some small infringements, but I haven't seen too many.
Yeah sorry b00n but that's rubbish. I'm one of these new members, and there is a huge difference between the CS I have played on our server and the few games I have played elsewhere. On the dMw server, we actually work together as a team, communicate and whatnot. Makes a world of difference.
I don't see why putting up invisible walls makes it a better, more realistic experience, and I never will. Team play and strategy is what makes this game for me.
Quote from: Chaosphere;362324I don't see why putting up invisible walls makes it a better, more realistic experience, and I never will.
Yes, you will. You only hold this view because you've never tried to play TCS on a public server. By all means then, let's open up the server and let the cat-herding commence.
With the relaxed rules we already have bunny-hopping rapidly becoming a fact of life while the server is still private, with only the ocassional casual comment about it.
Quote from: Chaosphere;362324Yeah sorry b00n but that's rubbish. I'm one of these new members, and there is a huge difference between the CS I have played on our server and the few games I have played elsewhere. On the dMw server, we actually work together as a team, communicate and whatnot. Makes a world of difference.
I don't see why putting up invisible walls makes it a better, more realistic experience, and I never will. Team play and strategy is what makes this game for me.
Problem is that not all is getting the idea what TCS is, and do not follow the inherent basics of TCS... Certain restrictions have been placed in the old days to assure people would learn the natural flow of TCS.
Quote from: b00n;362325Yes, you will. You only hold this view because you've never tried to play TCS on a public server. By all means then, let's open up the server and let the cat-herding commence.
With the relaxed rules we already have bunny-hopping rapidly becoming a fact of life while the server is still private, with only the ocassional casual comment about it.
Indeed public server = public people, those that never learned and some that just wont play by a simple request on the MOTD site when joining a server, that will require a bit more work, but its nothing the admins arent looking into.
Ye we have been made aware that people have started bunnyhopping, but we expect members to follow the standards of the community and currently reviewing what steps should be taken.
Just like in the thread we discussed this I don't feel like you actually read all of what I write. I have tried to play TCS on a public server. It doesn't work. It isn't because they don't have invisible boundaries and rubbish like that: it's because the players don't work together as a team, don't communicate, and don't all play for the objective. They run off and frag hunt, and lose the game so they can get a positive k/d. Stuff like that.
As for bunnyhopping, I certainly haven't seen much of it, and when I have people have apologised after as it was a mistake (we can all get a little giddy in the heat of the moment and mash that space bar). I agree with you that shouldn't be there, as it is unrealistic (ever seen someone do it? No.) but boundaries... they make no sense. Tactically, they just make no sense. When the US seals killed Bin Laden, did he complain because they came in through the back door and that was out of bounds? No, he didn't say a damn word because they used tactics to outsmart the enemy.
Quote from: Chaosphere;362399Just like in the thread we discussed this I don't feel like you actually read all of what I write. I have tried to play TCS on a public server. It doesn't work. It isn't because they don't have invisible boundaries and rubbish like that: it's because the players don't work together as a team, don't communicate, and don't all play for the objective. They run off and frag hunt, and lose the game so they can get a positive k/d. Stuff like that.
As for bunnyhopping, I certainly haven't seen much of it, and when I have people have apologised after as it was a mistake (we can all get a little giddy in the heat of the moment and mash that space bar). I agree with you that shouldn't be there, as it is unrealistic (ever seen someone do it? No.) but boundaries... they make no sense. Tactically, they just make no sense. When the US seals killed Bin Laden, did he complain because they came in through the back door and that was out of bounds? No, he didn't say a damn word because they used tactics to outsmart the enemy.
1. It has worked just fine on our public servers in the past... back in the CS:S day, we had well admined servers and the TCS aspect was being followed, offenders would be warned, warned, killed and finally kicked... And bounds werent that big a issue.
2. Well if it was a TCS server where they killed Osama, following the TCS rules, they wouldnt have been out of bounds would they, as their objective would be attacking, so they would have no bounds and be able to use any route they see fit, Osamas guards on the other hand would be subject to some kind of boundary as running off to catch a Navy seal would either get him killed by the Seal or by Osama when he got back. and their objective would be to guard Osama (just like a hostage map)
Quote from: Chaosphere;362399Just like in the thread we discussed this I don't feel like you actually read all of what I write. I have tried to play TCS on a public server. It doesn't work. It isn't because they don't have invisible boundaries and rubbish like that: it's because the players don't work together as a team, don't communicate, and don't all play for the objective. They run off and frag hunt, and lose the game so they can get a positive k/d. Stuff like that.
This is exactly what I keep trying to explain. TCS *does* work on a public server. And it works precisely because TCS is a formulated set of rules (boundaries and 'rubbish like that') which were formulated to enable a tactical style of play to be conducted on a public server. What you have surmised (correctly) is that without this framework, TCS on a public server is unworkable.
I still dont think I've seen a good explanation of why the TCS ruleset was ever revisited in the first place. Core CS gameplay has not changed throughout its iterations. If we do not need boundaries to enable TCS play now, then it's also true that we have never needed them. Anyone who used to play our public server during busy times can attest that this is not the case.
Many who discovered dMw through CSS will also attest that the structured gameplay on the server is the reason that they came back. I'd like to see us have a public server again so we can bring in more players to TCS. Without the structure, TCS won't work, and without TCS there's nothing to bring people back.
Edit: it also just occurred to me that while we've been getting on fine with relaxed rules on the private server, this is probably due in no small part to the fact that every player who used to play under the old rules is (consciously or subconsciously) still respecting the old boundaries. Says to me that if the basic rule is 'stick to the objective' then those boundaries are a sound logical extension of that (ie. they are where they need to be, without being a hinderance).
Quote from: b00n;362420This is exactly what I keep trying to explain. TCS *does* work on a public server. And it works precisely because TCS is a formulated set of rules (boundaries and 'rubbish like that') which were formulated to enable a tactical style of play to be conducted on a public server. What you have surmised (correctly) is that without this framework, TCS on a public server is unworkable.
I still dont think I've seen a good explanation of why the TCS ruleset was ever revisited in the first place. Core CS gameplay has not changed throughout its iterations. If we do not need boundaries to enable TCS play now, then it's also true that we have never needed them. Anyone who used to play our public server during busy times can attest that this is not the case.
Many who discovered dMw through CSS will also attest that the structured gameplay on the server is the reason that they came back. I'd like to see us have a public server again so we can bring in more players to TCS. Without the structure, TCS won't work, and without TCS there's nothing to bring people back.
TCS is what made us special (in a good way)
We even had other communities cloning our TCS platform to accomodate their Tactical servers.
TCS on the public server resulted in one of two things. New people 'got it' and stayed to become solid members, or they didn't 'get it' and never came back. dMw played CoD (the first one I believe) in the same manner "and it was good". Then for reasons I know not it changed to 'blue arsed fly' mode. Spoiled it for me.
I do see an element of frag hunting on MH creeping in and sadly a despondent acceptance of it by some. It comes as a big shock to an old fella to be shot in the back! Please don't give up on 'all that rubbish'
Quote from: Doorman;362430TCS on the public server resulted in one of two things. New people 'got it' and stayed to become solid members, or they didn't 'get it' and never came back.
I think this gets to the heart of it really, despite the fact that there are ten thousand other servers where you don't have to play TCS, we seem to be following the route of wider society where you absolutely cannot do anything which might upset anyone, therefore TCS must change.
Quote from: b00n;362431.....the route of wider society where you absolutely cannot do anything which might upset anyone....
Don't start me on that! :sideways:
:rolleyes:
Quote from: b00n;362431I think this gets to the heart of it really, despite the fact that there are ten thousand other servers where you don't have to play TCS, we seem to be following the route of wider society where you absolutely cannot do anything which might upset anyone, therefore TCS must change.
It will discussed (hopefully later today) either we go more mainstream and hope people on the server follow TCS, and if not well we can only hope.
Or we run by the old ruleset and go full focus on TCS hoping to bring in a fair amount of people who will love it as so many of our older members do.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Can someone please explain how the boundaries rule worked in the past...Thanks.
These are the rules whe used for TCS
No Entry Signs and Out Of Bounds (OOB)
On the dMw servers we play Tactical CS which focuses on objective oriented team play. To emphasize the objective oriented play No Entry Signs have been placed for the defending team on all our maps. If you cannot see the signs you need to reconnect to the server. If you still cannot see them you need to turn on Decals in your config.
The signs indicate that the defending team should not go beyond this point as it would mean compromising the objective. In game it means that the defending team are not allowed past the sign. Below the No Entry Signs are displayed and explained.
The No Entry Signs
(http://www.lugnagatan.net/mats/motd/T_noentry.jpg)
T No Entry Sign
Ts are not allowed to go beyond the no-entry signs UNTIL the hostages are taken. If the hostages are taken the goal is to secure the hostages when you go beyond the no entry signs.
------------
(http://www.lugnagatan.net/mats/motd/CT_noentry.jpg)
CT No Entry Sign
CTs are NOT allowed to go beyond the no-entry signs UNTIL the bomb is planted. CTs are allowed to guard a downed bomb beyond the no entry sign.
---------
FAQ about No Entry Signs:
Q1. Am I allowed to pick up a gun on the wrong side of a No Entry Sign?
A1. No.
Q2. How should I interpret a sign like the CT no entry sign above that is on the side wall?
A2. Imagine a plane extending from that wall in parallel with the sign across that entrance. Do not cross that plane.
Q3. I think I heard someone calling the bomb down. Can I flank?
A3. No. You need to have confirmation that the bomb is down. You should always question flanking as you put yourself at risk and indirectly your team. If you are unsure always go the safe route that is in bounds.
If the bomb is confirmed down you are allowed to flank but you should always discuss it with your team. What is the reason for flanking? You getting quicker to the bomb or maybe getting a kill?
Q4. When a no entry sign is sprayed on the ground where does the boundary go? Can I stand on it?
A4. If you are unsure - do not do it! Always interpret the signs in the opposite teams favor i.e. the boundary starts closest to you.
Q5. If the CTs have grabbed 2 out of 4 hostages and rescues them but the Ts still have the remaining 2, are the No Entry Signs still the rule or can T go everywhere?
A5. The objective for T is to guard the hostages i.e. the no entry signs comes in play as soon as the first 2 hostages are rescued. Ts are not allowed to go out of bounds as the "new" objective is to guard the remaining hostages.
If there are Ts that are out of bounds due to the pursuit of the first 2 hostages they should return as soon as possible to the remaining 2 as that is the objective.
Q6. Can I take a quick peek beyond a no entry sign if the objective is not compromised?
A6. No.
Q7. Am I allowed to spray my own spray on top of a no entry sign?
A7. No.
Q8. What does OOB mean?
A8. It means Out Of Bounds i.e. you have moved beyond a no entry sign. If you are OOB then you should get back on the "right" side of the No Entry Sign. Rule of thumb is that you should be near your objective.
Q9. What happens if I go beyond the No Entry Signs?
A9. First you will be warned. If you don't return you will also risk being slayed, then kicked and finally banned.
Q10. I can't see any signs. Are you sure there are signs on this map?
A10. There are signs on all maps in the rotation on both Boomer and Meathook. If you cannot see them you should reconnect to the server. Easiest way to do that is typing "retry" in console. If you still not see any signs you should make sure that you Decals are allowed in your config. If you have disabled decals it is up to YOU to turn them on or learn the boundaries by heart.
---------
Some examples of how the No Entry Signs should be interpreted.
(http://www.lugnagatan.net/mats/oob/nes01.jpg)
Sign is on the wall and the line extends along that wall i.e. you are not allowed at the steps.
(http://www.lugnagatan.net/mats/oob/nes02.jpg)
Sign on the ground because a full sign wouldn't fit on the wall on each side of the entrance.
(http://www.lugnagatan.net/mats/oob/nes03.jpg)
Double doors on aztec. Note that there are two signs. The reason for this is that is easy to miss the sign only on the ground.
(http://www.lugnagatan.net/mats/oob/nes04.jpg)
Bridge on aztec. Here 3 signs work as one basically but all 3 are needed due to the two levels and the scale of the openings.
(http://www.lugnagatan.net/mats/oob/nes06.jpg)
Wooden bridge on kismayo. No it is not allowed to step up onto them and peek. If you have an urge to peek stand on the ledge on the right but keep on the right side of the boundary.
(http://www.lugnagatan.net/mats/oob/nes07.jpg)
Kismayo again. Difficult corner with 2 signs. Extending the lines it make is clear though.
(http://www.lugnagatan.net/mats/oob/nes08.jpg)
Bottom of bombsite B on marauder. The boundary is an extension of the wall and stops _in_ the crates and not after.
(http://www.lugnagatan.net/mats/oob/nes10.jpg)
Inferno corridor to A. Note that the boundary is an extension of the wall and goes in between the pillars.
EDIT: Whe had signs at that time placed overal where it was not allowed to pass them...
Thanks KKND, I've not had alot of experince with playing CS on Public servers, Thus far only played on one where it was a free for all of mayhem (not in a good way). If we WERE to go public I wouldn't mind seeing the boundaries rule implemented, But what happens if a random pubby were to join the server and broke the rule they would first get warned & An admin/dMw tag wearer explain the rule?.
In the past it was like warn, warn last warn kick something like that by admins.....but this is now up to Blunt and his team how they wanna have the rules if it gos public.
Boundaries implemented is alot off work i think.......think things work also if you use common sence ;-)
warned how? If it was a public player for example what would an admin say would they explain the rule or just state to stay out of that area?.
Quote from: .DickDastardly.;362467warned how? If it was a public player for example what would an admin say would they explain the rule or just state to stay out of that area?.
Offcourse explain rules first whe had even before you joined server the rules added..
The Rules, state of server, and all relating, has tonight been discussed by the admins..
Rules and server structure will be posted in the following days.
Quote from: b00n;362420This is exactly what I keep trying to explain. TCS *does* work on a public server. And it works precisely because TCS is a formulated set of rules (boundaries and 'rubbish like that') which were formulated to enable a tactical style of play to be conducted on a public server. What you have surmised (correctly) is that without this framework, TCS on a public server is unworkable.
Edit: it also just occurred to me that while we've been getting on fine with relaxed rules on the private server, this is probably due in no small part to the fact that every player who used to play under the old rules is (consciously or subconsciously) still respecting the old boundaries. Says to me that if the basic rule is 'stick to the objective' then those boundaries are a sound logical extension of that (ie. they are where they need to be, without being a hinderance).
I think this sums up the discussion... we are looking at it from different ways. I'm saying why do we need boundaries, because all I have seen on our server is dMw only play - where we can have a good game of TCS without them. However, when you invite people from outside of dMw into the server, yeah, maybe they won't play the same way! Perhaps that is the angle I'm missing here. When I see publics on the server, maybe I will see why we need such rules after all, because they won't automatically play in the way we all try to.
Quote from: Chaosphere;362535...I'm saying why do we need boundaries, because all I have seen on our server is dMw only play - where we can have a good game of TCS without them.
It's 'the rules' that make them good games. You're suggesting that there should be no rules! Once you start relaxing 'the rules' you have public play.
This won't mean much to you I guess, but it's like in the 60s 'the rules' were relaxed and we've ended up with the society we've got today, pretty much ruleless. But I digress.
Quote from: Chaosphere;362535However, when you invite people from outside of dMw into the server, yeah, maybe they won't play the same way! Perhaps that is the angle I'm missing here. When I see publics on the server, maybe I will see why we need such rules after all, because they won't automatically play in the way we all try to.
You're getting there. :)
The mistakes of the past are not an excuse for our behaviour in the present. But I digress.
All I ask is that the admins be... friendly... when enforcing the rules. Those of you that played a lot of CS before often take it very seriously (and I'm not saying that is a bad thing!), but this doesn't apply to all of us. One can abide by the rules and still relax a little, so take it easy on us n00bs, ey? Don't want to scare publics off or give them the wrong image of what dMw is about...
look guys...The rules will be tailored to fit the ethos of the community and to provide the most fun for its members and its potential members. If we dont have pubic servers then how do we expect the community to grow? having a public server gets our name out there and promotes us all.
As for the rules these have been discussed with Blunt and the admins and will be posted in the near future, but bounds are needed! and Chaos i can assure you the admins will be 'friendly... when enforcing the rules' even more so with its registered members, the bounds are there to help you not for an invite for someone to have a go at you, if this happens then let one of the admins know.
At the end of the day the game can get extremely boring if players run around the back or go where they know they shouldnt really be to gain an advantage.
All in all its common sense gameplay, if your running around in a part of a map that you dont think you should really be then you probably shouldnt be there......
Good, now get em up and let's make this thing public :P
Quote from: Chaosphere;362571The mistakes of the past are not an excuse for our behaviour in the present. But I digress.
All I ask is that the admins be... friendly... when enforcing the rules. Those of you that played a lot of CS before often take it very seriously (and I'm not saying that is a bad thing!), but this doesn't apply to all of us. One can abide by the rules and still relax a little, so take it easy on us n00bs, ey? Don't want to scare publics off or give them the wrong image of what dMw is about...
As sparko said, we will be friendly.
Quote from: Chaosphere;362571The mistakes of the past are not an excuse for our behaviour in the present.
True, but they can be the
reason for our behaviour in the present. :)
Quote from: Doorman;362584True, but they can be the reason for our behaviour in the present. :)
Not that we're going off on a tangent here but...
Not really! That is sorta the same as using the past as an excuse. The past is only a reason for our behaviour now if we let it be. If we, as individuals and as society, change the way we act on something, then whatever has come before can only be a lesson learnt. Accepting the past as a reason for today and tomorrow is just the same as saying let's all give up and act badly because we can't do any better.
I think we're going round in circles here and there's merit on both sides of this.
Quote from: Chaosphere;362571All I ask is that the admins be... friendly... when enforcing the rules. Those of you that played a lot of CS before often take it very seriously (and I'm not saying that is a bad thing!), but this doesn't apply to all of us. One can abide by the rules and still relax a little, so take it easy on us n00bs, ey? Don't want to scare publics off or give them the wrong image of what dMw is about...
We've been strict, almost draconian, when playing historically as we played to very strict boundaries and it was very black and white in when they were breached.
These new guidelines are a lot more subjective and there are obviously going to occasions where people differ in their view point of acceptability.
NO ONE should fly off the handle and start losing their temper or shout at other players for any reason (unless they're publics and being complete planks of course :rolleyes:).
We're a community and we're in this together. It doesn't matter if you're a complete novice or a seasoned Admin, bullying and aggressive behaviour will not be tolerated.
We have had instances in the past where admins have got over zealous and they have been reigned in or demoted. We've had members doing the same and they've been invited to step in line or leave.
Mutual respect is important and vital and we
do need to get more publics converted and into the Community as members.
So should anyone from a first timer, old timer, admin, game leader or community admin get abusive when enforcing the rules or feel abused on the server then step up and say so. There'll be enough people on the server to witness exchanges and we don't want to see people abusing their positions. Being an Admin does not give you free reign to be an arse.
As with all gaming streams, the first point of call is the Game Leader (Blunt in this instance) and then, if not satisfied, approach one of the Community Admins, Tealeaf or myself.
Quote from: TeaLeafThe aim is to admin the game in the way we used to do in the TCS days. Please remember the difference between the old, prescriptive PCS rules and the newer "we believe you are smarter than that" TCS rules. PCS told you what line to not run beyond and the rules were different for every map and highly complex. TCS is simpler and requires commmon sense.
The TCS rule is: Stick to the objective.
Please admin the server with your common sense and to that TCS standard. Other dMw standards remain in place (no bunny hopping, civil language etc, etc).
EVERYONE please take this as a formal reminder of the rules, the way we play and the courtesy and respect we demand to others when playing here.
Thanks.
PS. No shooting Doorman in the back please. He gets a crick in his neck should he need to turn round quickly. :)
QuotePS. No shooting Doorman in the back please. He gets a crick in his neck should he need to turn round quickly. :)
Ah, turning round quickly, those were the days. :rolleyes:
Thanks PEN,
That sums it up nicely, you should get a job in PR or suchlike :P
The Private server is shortly to go public, so from now on everybody should obey the boundaries rules that you can find HERE
W (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?37208-Map-Boundaries.-Please-read.)e plan to have a separate private server as an overflow and for weekly get-togethers which will be more relaxed.
Please be a bit patient with us as we have to find the time to organise stuff when the admins are all available at the same time.
Have fun!
Quote from: Blunt;362595Thanks PEN,
That sums it up nicely, you should get a job in PR or suchlike :P
The Private server is shortly to go public, so from now on everybody should obey the boundaries rules that you can find HERE
W (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?37208-Map-Boundaries.-Please-read.)e plan to have a separate private server as an overflow and for weekly get-togethers which will be more relaxed.
Please be a bit patient with us as we have to find the time to organise stuff when the admins are all available at the same time.
Have fun!
Blunt, Will the no entry signs be put on maps before the server is made public?.
Quote from: .DickDastardly.;362599Blunt, Will the no entry signs be put on maps before the server is made public?.
Yes Dick, I've introduced the bounds early so that people can get used to it.
Just need a bit more time to organise the signs
:)
Ok Cheers, I did find the rule being in place from tonight (with the games we played) made it more tactical & teamwork based.