I dont think you should be closing threads before people have the chance to say goodbye (and/or state their opinions) to a fellow raider and friend over years of TS/wow comms.
Let people have their goodbyes. I know this is not a democracy.. nor has ever been.. but in a raid enviroment, raiders (Puja was 2nd non-officer on RGT dkp list) who are expressing their concerns should be listened to when expressing their concerns.
Puja made a valid point, RL (TL) also made a valid point when disagreeing.
Good bye puja, and good luck wherever you may end up! <3
-Slush
Sorry to see you go mate - wish you all the best in whatever you do
-don't be a stranger
-Milli
See you later mate.
Hope to see you in game sometime
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I have to agree with Slush here, yes people were disagreeing and yes there was an argument but so what!
Like slush said this is not a democracy and people are ok with that but why the hell did you have to close the goodbye treath?
We have been raiding side by side for the past 2(ish) years and for most of you alot longer, i think you should AT least give him his saying and people their time to say goodbye!
Is this whats going to happen to me when i don't agree with the officers at some point?
I dont know, i think its all abit weird!
Anyway, goodbye puja! i know we might not have seen stuff the same way and i might have said something on TS from time to time but your an amazing healer and thanks for all the good time in the past years :)
Hope to see you around the server and just give me a hollah if you want to do a hc or lfr on an alt or something :)
I had a long chat with Puja after the raid ....
Why I closed the thread
To give a cooling down period as emotions were running too high.
Its not a goodbye thread its a rage post. Any personal issues with another member should not be open for discussion but delt with in a respectful way for party's involved.
When people leave the guild they also loose access to the wow members section so any goodbye's will not be seen anyway
Its a big shame and hes a valued member but we have to respect his decision and wish him the best of luck
I disagree with you saying its a rage post.
He explains why he reacted the way he did and what drove him there.
I was listening to TS at the time and if i was talked to the same way i would have freaked out as well.
He has been healing in this raid group for 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 years now?
It was our 2nd time there and im not saying the healing is always the best ( i had my share of frustration as well ) but it always gets us here.
And btw, i was in charge of healing assignments for the nr1 guild of the server for most of vanilla and TBC that doesn't mean i know whats going on with everything healing wise at the moment.
Cant believe how hes being treated seeing hes been with us for so long.
Anyway I have to get back to work if i dont want to lose it, ill cu all Sunday.
<3 u hubbah
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See you around m8
Firstly, although Puja will not see this post, I wish him all the best wherever he goes.
Now I'll throw my tuppence in and call it the way I saw it.
Jas is correct in saying that personal issues should be dealt with privately in the first instance. That's the dMw way, it's the the way we have always done it and it works for a reason. If you want to bitch about someone, take it up with them privately in the first instance and try and resolve it.
Re the Council encounter:
I questioned why we lost some people on the previous try and discover that in a fight where there are multiple healing priorities that none had been set and that healers had been freelancing.
I say we need to set priorities to avoid both healers randomly dealing with the same priority and both ignoring another (which is why we lose people).
I'm told in absolute terms that it is impossible to do with a healing assignment and that I don't know what I am talking about.
I respond with "Why?", twice.
If that approach is wrong and if that is the wrong way to speak to people then I'm afraid you may need to find yourself a new raid leader because I'll not be doing it any more. I tried to ensure that my personal frustration with the stupidity of the statement was not evident on TS until after Puja left, as I did not want to inflame his obviously elevated stress levels. Puja's had these fits about once per expansion so far and always at the point where I have challenged or disagreed with a statement he has made, but logging of and quitting is not the way to deal with it.
Prior to his argument with me at Council, Jas had already had to speak to Puja and calm him down during Horridon.
During discussion after the raid we discovered that during the raid and before Council, two other officers both considered giving Puja a private warning for comments made in healer channel about other raid members.
As Guru put it, Puja seemed to waiting for a 'spark' which I dutifully provided when I challenged his statement that the fight was impossible with healing assignments.
RGT is built on questioning things and understanding why we fail. That empowers us to succeed. If we cannot question things we may as well give up. RGT has worked well for years on the basis that everyone knows everything & everyone is up for discussion. DMR made significant changes when the BWD tier was launched, one of which was to become very much more organised and focused - we introduced healing assignments for example on every boss and by & large they are still in place on every boss we do (until we LOL them through on farm). The 'jump' in raid progress showed the results and I stand by the statement I made last night: "do you really think that DREAM Paragon go into a progress fight and freelance it without healing assignments?"
To simply state point blank that a fight is impossible with a healing assignment priority is so contrary to my belief so as to almost be unbelievable.
If that level of questioning and challenge is beyond the raid then I will happily step down. I am more than delighted to see anyone else who wants the raid leader job put their hat in the ring right now in this thread.
@Hubbah: Yes I got frustrated with Slush bringing Jas into the argument, it was not relevant as the issue was Puja not Jas. At that point (after Puja left TS) I was indeed frustrated so I apologise to you Slush for being short/rude, but I (and others in Council) did not see how Jas was relevant to an issue with Puja so we saw it as a confusing misdirect. I'm also not sure what you mean by "how he is being treated"? We've pretty much been spectators as he quit TS, left the raid, logged off from the game. We've even tried through Jas to reach out to him, but he decided to gquit. I'm not sure what else you would have us do?
WOOOOOOOOOOOOW!
I really can't believe it, as I said yesterday and I'm not here to say who is right and who is wrong.. all what I'm saying here is to give Puja a break.. he might have a bad day after all.
Folks this is not going anywhere with who is right and who is wrong.. lets try to solve this issue ASAP.
@ Puja: I've been raiding with you for over than 5 years now and I'm always considering you as a friend and a good one. I refuse to say goodbye to you cause hopefully things will be solved sooner or later.
GET BACK TO RGT PLX!
Quote from: TeaLeaf;369024@Hubbah: Yes I got frustrated with Slush bringing Jas into the argument, it was not relevant as the issue was Puja not Jas. At that point (after Puja left TS) I was indeed frustrated so I apologise to you Slush for being short/rude, but I (and others in Council) did not see how Jas was relevant to an issue with Puja so we saw it as a confusing misdirect. I'm also not sure what you mean by "how he is being treated"? We've pretty much been spectators as he quit TS, left the raid, logged off from the game. We've even tried through Jas to reach out to him, but he decided to gquit. I'm not sure what else you would have us do?
See PM.
Now i have to get back to work or ill wont be ready to leave early and someone will be mad at me standing waiting at the airport :)
Many thanks for your kind messages in the DMR channel that i can't see.
It seems some clarification is required......so here is some......as politely as i can make it.
1. My reason for leaving the raid last night - nothing to do with a disagreement, nothing to do with not "being right"........my "blew my top" frustration was prompted 100% not by the response but the tone of the response and the way things are said. The discussion of healing assignments - yes, pretty much a good idea and as a general rule 100% right. However, last week when we did kill it we started out the tries and we defaulted to what we would normally do......Rhoda was on Whytee as focus and Hal was mine with general raid healing. All sorted ?....NO. It was a nightmare. What we morphed to was BOTH of the healers focussing Whytee and doing what they could elsewhere but the situation is so flexible that we really had to "use the force" to keep it ticking over....and we succeeded. Like it or not you have to rely on the skill of the people to make the decisions on the fly......and you'll find that often people can do it. It is not a "stupid" statement to say for THAT fight that fixed assignments are not flexible enough........to call such a suggestion "stupid" without listening is showing a complete lack of respect.
2. Me being overly dramatic last night/frequently ??? - was my frustration a result of a one-off clash with TL ? No. I'm a big boy and welcome discussion and can also understand the desire not to spend forever talking over points. However, TL you often do condescend to people and talk to them in a way to put them down.......this is not helpful nor conducive to a reasoned conversation.......people too often shut off their mics for the good of the guild. This means that it is very difficult with you to put ANY ideas forward as often your first reaction is to put it down and belittle people on TS .......people including myself inwardly sigh and bottle it up as it's a fight not worth having even though good ideas are put forward that often later get taken up - but its the pain of getting there that is annoying.........i'm afraid my bottle got broken last night and i lost the ability to be as diplomatic with you as normal and my only option was to get out asap before i really said something to regret........it really was best i left the raid at that point.
3. My reason for leaving the guild - just to clarify this- not as a direct result of the "falling out". This was a direct result of my discussion with Jas and as earlier stated all was fine in our long conversation until right at the end when he told me that i should basically apologise for everything and completely dismissing many of the things that we had been discussing that he agreed with.
4. Am i a "loose cannon" looking to cause trouble - In my opinion no. I believe in my and everyone else's right to have an opinion - no need to fall out over things......but i also believe in trying to be diplomatic in doing so. We are all adults and should be treated as such...........i expect to be treated with respect - and if this means you have to bite your tongue a little and choose your words more carefully with me as i might have to do with you...then do it - I do
Did i want to lave dmr ? no. But i felt little option given the circumstances as the following applies.....
1. I do not accept the fault that it was me alone that caused last nights "situation" and as such cannot apologise for it alone. To call my opinion "stupid" in a locked away post after the event merely reinforces this one for me.
2. I have spoken to the "officers" about the way people are spoken to as it has regularly been unacceptable.....nothing changed.
Anyway - thanks for the good times and cheers.
Niel
Neil, if you want to discuss this with me or any other officer please do so via a PM. Personally, I will not be discussing this guild matter any further in a public section.
Another officer removed your member's forum access as you had left the guild, which is something we do for anyone that leaves, not just for you.
I am sorry you feel the way you do and wish you all the best in the future.
More than willing to discuss it with you directly.
Forum access removal - fine by me.....completely understand it. However comments about me made there that i am aware of will still need to be defended.
I'll be posting nothing more here about this so you can stop worrying about me stirring up trouble on here.
Cheers
Niel
I got a PM from Teaell. I think most of RGT got a similar PM.
I have absolutely no understanding on why we all have to write in PM's instead of discussing things openly on forums. The PM's should be pretty much identical.
But that is kinda irrelevant as I answer here either way. No Teaell, I do not want to you to step down. I didnt find you harsh or rude yesterday so you do not need to apopogize for that.. it was rather as Puja said; Condescending. But thats you, and I like that side of you. All emotional and wanting to always have the last word :D
Anyhow, I wont be able to raid more with RGT. I disagree fundamentally with Jas and Teaell in their posts made earlier in this thread. I could start going quoting-bananas, but lets just say I have a different opinion than the council in most everyting they said in this matter. Please demote me to social and thank you for carrying me through 3 fantastic years of wow raiding!! <3
Hi Niel,
In the sake of giving you the opportunity to see the relevant posts and also to post your right to reply, I'm making a unliateral decision to temporarily reinstate your wow badge.
Me, myself and I don't want this spilling out in a public forum but I also don't want to be been to be stifling your right to talk. I think it just doesn't help anything or anyone when posted in an open forum for the google spiders to spread across the world.
I haven't talked to JAS and apologies in advance to him and whoever it was that removed your badge (which was actually the right course of action) but it's the easiest and quickest way to give everyone the opportunity to wrap things up.
I'll then move this thread to members.
Hope that makes sense and you'll see this is members. I'll send you a PM just in case I managed to stuff it up which is not out the realms of possibility.
Cheers
PEN
Bloody hell this is all blown out of proportion now :(
I think we all need to just step back and cool down.
Farewell Neil, i'm not very happy to see ya go however.
Just to confirm then:
1. I've given Niel his access back (for, say, 24 hours) so that he and everyone else can do their thing.
2. I've moved Niel's thread from public to members
3. I've merged Niel's and Slush's threads so it's easier to review.
Apologies if this upsets anyone (can't see how) but it's out there just in case.
I'm around on PM for abuse as needed.
Thanks all
PEN
For what it's worth as Forum Administrator I agree with Penfold's plan. However this forum is not a platform for any sort of personal attack against anyone. Feel free to discuss healing tactics, ways to resolve problems, plans to restore members or wish them a fond farewell. Anything anyone wants to say to a member about that member goes in a PM please. That's the way it's always been here.
Thanks
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Quote from: Ammon;369036Bloody hell this is all blown out of proportion now :(
I think we all need to just step back and cool down.
Farewell Neil, i'm not very happy to see ya go however.
couldnt agree more with Ammon
Raiding can (and does) put people under pressure, and yes sometimes things get said and taken out of context... you should of been a disc priest during the first 6 months of cata .. nightmare !
Fair well Puja, been a great hoot over the last 2 years on coms :P
Should I post shouldn't I ? Well it's an open forum so here goes. Dmw fosters an adult environment and we talk to each other as such most of the time. Transactional analysis known as PAC enables us in most situations to move the conversation to adult to adult sooo if you ever feel that someone is condescending do not revert to child parent discussion keep them adult to adult. People can be forced into parental or child roles and responses it is not necessarily their intention to do so. Shimmering back to a relevance of this and wow I can relate to... When cata came out I was involved in a discussion about changing From boom kin to something else. I felt initially like a child being told I was not needed its a childish response, when I asked to what class as an adult I was answered as an adult dependant on the needs of rgw and the loot table thingy for each class. There was a hint of parental telling at first so it's easy to respond as a child. If someone speaks to you as a needy child it's just as important not to assume parental responses Happy ending love my hunter no boomkins were hurt telling this story. If anyone thinks this is to do with the ages of anyone I will kill 1000 kittens
Lol sithy
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Quote from: TeaLeaf;369024Firstly, although Puja will not see this post, I wish him all the best wherever he goes.
Now I'll throw my tuppence in and call it the way I saw it.
Jas is correct in saying that personal issues should be dealt with privately in the first instance. That's the dMw way, it's the the way we have always done it and it works for a reason. If you want to bitch about someone, take it up with them privately in the first instance and try and resolve it.
Re the Council encounter:
I questioned why we lost some people on the previous try and discover that in a fight where there are multiple healing priorities that none had been set and that healers had been freelancing.
I say we need to set priorities to avoid both healers randomly dealing with the same priority and both ignoring another (which is why we lose people).
I'm told in absolute terms that it is impossible to do with a healing assignment and that I don't know what I am talking about.
I respond with "Why?", twice.
If that approach is wrong and if that is the wrong way to speak to people then I'm afraid you may need to find yourself a new raid leader because I'll not be doing it any more. I tried to ensure that my personal frustration with the stupidity of the statement was not evident on TS until after Puja left, as I did not want to inflame his obviously elevated stress levels. Puja's had these fits about once per expansion so far and always at the point where I have challenged or disagreed with a statement he has made, but logging of and quitting is not the way to deal with it.
Prior to his argument with me at Council, Jas had already had to speak to Puja and calm him down during Horridon.
During discussion after the raid we discovered that during the raid and before Council, two other officers both considered giving Puja a private warning for comments made in healer channel about other raid members.
As Guru put it, Puja seemed to waiting for a 'spark' which I dutifully provided when I challenged his statement that the fight was impossible with healing assignments.
RGT is built on questioning things and understanding why we fail. That empowers us to succeed. If we cannot question things we may as well give up. RGT has worked well for years on the basis that everyone knows everything & everyone is up for discussion. DMR made significant changes when the BWD tier was launched, one of which was to become very much more organised and focused - we introduced healing assignments for example on every boss and by & large they are still in place on every boss we do (until we LOL them through on farm). The 'jump' in raid progress showed the results and I stand by the statement I made last night: "do you really think that DREAM Paragon go into a progress fight and freelance it without healing assignments?"
To simply state point blank that a fight is impossible with a healing assignment priority is so contrary to my belief so as to almost be unbelievable.
If that level of questioning and challenge is beyond the raid then I will happily step down. I am more than delighted to see anyone else who wants the raid leader job put their hat in the ring right now in this thread.
@Hubbah: Yes I got frustrated with Slush bringing Jas into the argument, it was not relevant as the issue was Puja not Jas. At that point (after Puja left TS) I was indeed frustrated so I apologise to you Slush for being short/rude, but I (and others in Council) did not see how Jas was relevant to an issue with Puja so we saw it as a confusing misdirect. I'm also not sure what you mean by "how he is being treated"? We've pretty much been spectators as he quit TS, left the raid, logged off from the game. We've even tried through Jas to reach out to him, but he decided to gquit. I'm not sure what else you would have us do?
I promised to post no more......my original post has been removed as i assume it was classed as "abusive"......however, this post remains here..........i have complained about it - and it is still here ....so it is going to get the answer that it has needed since you posted it up in a place that you thought i could not see it. Pretty cowardly is the way i see it.........you would never dare say this to me directly. As for the "facts" within it........contrived and twisted at best.
"If you want to bitch about someone, take it up with them privately in the first instance and try and resolve it" - and then you proceed to bitch and tell fibs about me.......live by the same rules as everyone else TL ? Yes, i forgot....you don't have to do you.
"I tried to ensure that my personal frustration with the stupidity of the statement was not evident on TS until after Puja left, as I did not want to inflame his obviously elevated stress levels." - Now, where do i start with this.
Ok :-
1. your "personal frustration" was more than evident, as it is EVERY time ANYONE dare disagree with you - you think yourself above question and above reproach. Try opening your mind and not your mouth.
2. My statement was not "stupid".....maybe to your ears - but so has every other suggestion put forward where you talk it down and then once it is actually adopted you issue a grumbling acknowledgement. Your complete lack of respect for someone who has been with this raid group constantly and has healed us through EVERY single encounter we have ever done ....... and you have not........ you dare to call my opinion stupid on a public forum when actually my knowledge of what we are doing is ahead of and more current than yours - rather than try to understand why an experienced person would say that you try to batter them down with your lesser-informed opinion - the cheek of you is outstanding.....but not surprising.
3. My obviously elevated stress levels ? - my only stress levels at the time were with you and your downright rude approach to anyone saying anything to you.....i am not some unstable weak minded idiot and your insinuation here is pretty disgusting.
"Puja's had these fits about once per expansion so far and always at the point where I have challenged or disagreed with a statement he has made" - Is that so......name the occasions and the reasons. Think about them and i think you'll find that the only "fits" that i have had has been trying to get anything through your stubborn, obstinate thick skin - you are an incredibly narrow minded person with absolutely no intention of ever listening to anyone but yourself.
"Prior to his argument with me at Council, Jas had already had to speak to Puja and calm him down during Horridon." - Untrue......fabricated twist on some comments made in dmrhealz channel that is nowhere near the truth.
"During discussion after the raid we discovered that during the raid and before Council, two other officers both considered giving Puja a private warning for comments made in healer channel about other raid members." - strange how this is "after the event" because i and others can think of nothing to which you refer.....seems a bit of a pattern here ?
Again - you try to back up your objection to my statement about "THAT" fight based on completely unrelated info - assignments are very lose on that fight - because they have to be....simples......you go heal it and maybe you'd find out. We killed it the week before.....and each attempt improved until the kill.......to your thinking that should never have happened because the healers were "not organised"........as i state above - we've been more than organised the last 2 years and done quite well thanks without you telling us which button to click and when.
"If that level of questioning and challenge" - this one is staggering....coming from you of all people - the one man incapable of dealing with questions and challenges within the raid without going seriously on the attack.
After i left....you then took it out on others in the raid.
Now - i really don't expect this post to last long in the public eye. However, this is the answer you are getting after posting the above twisted version that suits your own mind in a public arena whilst any post i have made that was no more insulting than yours were removed.
So, my advice to you
1. Don't fabricate events to suit how you want them to be
2. Have more respect for the people you are raiding with
3. Speak less
4. Listen more
5. Repeat to yourself 10 times before joining a raid .."I do not know everything"
Do the above and i'm sure you'll improve with time.
Until then you can stick the above post where it don't shine ;)
This is a very harsh post - but reading it through i can see nothing i would want to delete as i think it all relevant.
Adios DMR
Niel
EDIT - More than willing to discuss anything with you and defend everything said here - unlikely i am guessing.
Thank you Smilodon ;)
Niel
It would be nice to have had a chance to have read through this thread after a certain TS conversation tonight. Sadly it seems I've not been given the chance.
When I post that I don't want to see personal attacks on this forum I'm not offering that as a choice. I'm making a statement of fact. It's not for individuals to decide whether they will comply. Hence another post gets binned. And make no mistake I'll happily keep throwing away these posts. It takes me a lot less time to delete them than it does for people to write them.
Clearly this conversation is going nowhere so I'm shutting this thread down.
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