Stryker. Oldbloke and I are planning a trip to BlackAdder later this month (final details still tbc) to do some maintenance work (to make 2 NICs work amongst other things), so I thought I would use the opportunity to ask about the potential for upgrading the server hardware. The current spec is:
Epox EP-4G4M+ mobo
Pentium IV 2.0 GHz
1GB PC2100 Crucial RAM
40GB WD HDD
Dual NICs
and other peripherals.
The RAM could be upgraded to PC2700 along with a faster processor and it would make sense to bash a much bigger HDD into the machine. Any other ideas?
Your thoughts gentlemen?
TL.
I dont think that the memory will make any noticable difference but we could definetly do with a new HDD.
The 2Ghz processor is still a hefty size.......should we not wait another 6-10 months and upgrade that then? (What is the largest it can take?)
In the end it is only the server and CS isnt that intensive.....is it?
We can't put any other games on it as they require windows not linux.
Actually CS1.6 is fairly CPU intensive. We are pretty sure that some of the performance issues are related to Steam's well-documented difficulty with Linux. Windows runs better (but is still a much heavier load than 1.5). One of the jobs on the list will be to move from the current Debian (2.4 kernel) installation to a fresh install of Windows 2003 Server.
The memory on its own would make a difference as it would allow the CPU to run with a full speed FSB, currently it is running a restricted FSB to keep the PC2100 RAM happy (you may recall that we originally bought PC2700 RAM for BA). If you add a faster CPU too then you again have a big step up in performance.
I agree re the HDD and they are cheap too :D
One of the issues is that if we are going to visit BA then it makes sense to do the hardware changes there and then (it saves another trip). I also believe that if we waited 6 months or so and then considered the upgrade we would be looking at a total overhaul of mobo, RAM and CPU to take advantage of the new Intel platform. Kind of swings and roundabouts imo, but I think this one would be cheaper and would stave off any other upgrade until next-gen prices come down to acceptable levels.
TL.
Are there any problems with the server that requires an upgrade though??
It seems to cope quite well with three servers so why are we wanting to upgrade.
The HDD is so that we can share more but if we are not planning on adding CS servers or games then there is'nt any reason to change.
Sorry just my 2p.
QuoteOriginally posted by smite@Jan 3 2004, 02:38 PM
Are there any problems with the server that requires an upgrade though?? It seems to cope quite well with three servers so why are we wanting to upgrade.
Huh? You must have missed something, the server is *not* coping with the game servers we have - as more than adequately demonstrated during the recent tournament. The Steam forums provide lots of juicy reading in that respect and seems to show that your average P4 2.0GHz cpu is at full load with about 16-18 people on a Linux CS box. Apart from that the next question is: Will we be up there again in the next year or so? The answer being probably not, so why not get any sensible upgrades done now? That was my line of thought - pre-emptive maintenance rather than reactive.
TL.
So let me get things in the right order:
1) As Debian Linux ain't coping too well with CS1.6, 2GHz cpu maxing out with 16 - 18 players etc. So we are to do a complete reinstall with Windows 2003 server and bin linux completely? (Stryker must be devistated).
2) Here are the specs of the current mobo:
Socket 478 Intel® Pentium® 4
2 x DDR SDRAM PC2100, 2GB max.
3 PCI, 1 AGP 4x (1.5v)
Intel® 845G 256-bit Extreme Graphics
Realtek RTL8100B(L) Fast Ethernet
MicroATX
so a RAM upgrade isn't in spec, so it would be an overspec, is this wise?
3) CPU recommendations for that board are P4 2400 400FSB, P4 2530 533FSB and P4 2800 533FSB. So we have a few KHz to play with but not too much.
Perhaps a full makeover is required? Mobo, CPU, RAM and HDD? Not meaning to put a financial damper on things, but we can put a new CPU and HDD onto that mobo and get an improvement, but we (could) shouldn't up the RAM past 2100 and can't put the CPU past 2800KHz so the upgrade potential is limited.
I agree with albert. As much as I like windows, Server 2003 requires a monster of a machine. I wouldn't even consider putting it on a system that only has one processor. And being Microsoft, you'll be patching and rebooting every other week.
Why the change to windows anyway? Is it to open up options for additional hosted games? If not, then why don't we stick a different distro on there to get the twin nics working.
Also, who is paying for the software? Win 2k3 is a pricey bit of code. And as it's hosted at crosswired it'll have to be legit, right?
RAM upgrade *is* in spec. The BIOS update from 11/02 gave it PC2700 capability. So an upgrade to a P4 2800 and PC2700 would give us a noticeable performance boost and shouldn't be that expensive. I am loathe to organise a total refresh of the hardware when 64 bit platforms are about to become affordable. As for W2003server, yes we would legit and the server should run it fine. We would also gain a massive performance boost by not running steam under Linux. Yes we are dumping Linux.
TL.
A question. Will we have the homepage and forums on a separate machine from the game server machine? I think that could help a lot too if we consider the FTP aspect of it.
QuoteOriginally posted by Sadako@Jan 4 2004, 01:12 AM
A question. Will we have the homepage and forums on a separate machine from the game server machine? I think that could help a lot too if we consider the FTP aspect of it.
Yes, you should assume that the FTP is on a different machine.
TL.
I am not really sure how much is needed for 3 CS servers on a Server2003. My experience is that the difference between PC2100 and 2700 isn't that great in comparison to a faster CPU. 1 GB memory should handle it without any problem irrespectively if it is PC2100 or 2700. I think that the machine we have is quite powerful but it is the cs+linux issue that makes it look "slow".
On the other hand if we look for a complete makeover (as Albert suggested) we can get a very fast AMD for little money now. The current machine could be turned into a LFS/Halo/other multiplayer server.
QuoteOriginally posted by Sadako@Jan 4 2004, 02:27 AM
My experience is that the difference between PC2100 and 2700 isn't that great in comparison to a faster CPU.
But if you run a faster CPU at the slower bus speed then you are really wasting money. Bus speed becomes more of an issue when the cpu loads increase, that's when you really start to notice what speed the ram is working at. Combine that with its limiting effect on a cpu and you have a powerful brake for your system performance.
QuoteOn the other hand if we look for a complete makeover (as Albert suggested) we can get a very fast AMD for little money now. The current machine could be turned into a LFS/Halo/other multiplayer server.
Agreed, but should we look at doing some minor work now (cpu/ram change) followed by a major overhaul to 64-bit in the future (when prices drop to reasonable levels) or do a major overhaul now (cpu/ram/mobo) and stay at 32-bit for the moment with the move to 64 bit postponed for a longer period? (I have assumed that you would not want to go to 64-bit immediately as there is not a complete range of 64 bit binaries available from which to run our software).
As for the software platform, I think that the current platform would cope with Win2003server imo, but a faster cpu/ram combination would cope that much better.
TL.
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@Jan 4 2004, 12:37 AM
RAM upgrade *is* in spec. The BIOS update from 11/02 gave it PC2700 capability. So an upgrade to a P4 2800 and PC2700 would give us a noticeable performance boost and shouldn't be that expensive. I am loathe to organise a total refresh of the hardware when 64 bit platforms are about to become affordable. As for W2003server, yes we would legit and the server should run it fine. We would also gain a massive performance boost by not running steam under Linux. Yes we are dumping Linux.
TL.
I gotta concur with TeaLeaf here.
We have a problem that is evident when the servers are busy. As we are committed to increasing the size of the community then that problem must be addressed asap.
All comments by experienced server admins found by trawling the various forums show that someone at Valve cannot write Linux binaries. <_<
Major server providers have switched to Windows or greatly reduced the number of servers running per Linux box.
Sticking in a P4 2.8 and 2700 RAM, moving to Windows and relocating the forum/ftp will be major upgrade at minor cost.
I did'nt know this when this post was originally made so my appologies if i was a bit abrupt, i thought we were upgrading just for the sake of it.
Sorry
Smite :unsure:
The other thought that escaped me until now is that a 40GB HDD would probably do well enough if it was just for games only. If the forums/ftp etc are on a different box would we really need more than the 40GB? IF a spare HDD is available then sure, whack it in, but if budget is an issue then we could probably do without replacing the HDD?
TL.
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@Jan 4 2004, 02:34 PM
The other thought that escaped me until now is that a 40GB HDD would probably do well enough if it was just for games only. If the forums/ftp etc are on a different box would we really need more than the 40GB? IF a spare HDD is available then sure, whack it in, but if budget is an issue then we could probably do without replacing the HDD?
TL.
Nope. 40 GB is more than enough. I have a 120 GB in my game shuttle and I haven't broken the 40 GB barrier yet ...
If the FTP is on another (windows) machine then we could add more HDDs to the FTP when needed.
Can we easily get cheap PC2700 memory and a faster processor? Is 1 GB enough for 3-5 CS servers (thinking of the future here)?
Regarding waiting for AMD64, my impression is that we would have to wait for about 1-1.5 years until a) it is stable enough B) there are applications for it c) the price is low enough. You can get a good and pricey regular AMDs atm that I think would be a better alternative if we were to upgrade.
My five,
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@Jan 4 2004, 12:37 AM
RAM upgrade *is* in spec. The BIOS update from 11/02 gave it PC2700 capability. So an upgrade to a P4 2800 and PC2700 would give us a noticeable performance boost and shouldn't be that expensive. I am loathe to organise a total refresh of the hardware when 64 bit platforms are about to become affordable. As for W2003server, yes we would legit and the server should run it fine. We would also gain a massive performance boost by not running steam under Linux. Yes we are dumping Linux.
TL.
Ah I read the base specs for the board not the BIOS improvements. So an upgrade to 2700 RAM is a nice cheap luxury to be able to implement.
The 2800 P4 is also a nice idea, 800 extra 533FSB power is a useful and cheap upgrade as well and well worth the money.
Lastly, I don't know enough about Win 2K3 or other servers architectures so how well 3 x CS1.6 would fare we'll see when it happens.
:)
I haven't searched around yet, but we ought to be able to wrap up the whole thing (cpu & ram) for £260, possibly slightly less if the price cuts we expect within the next 3 weeks materialises.
TL.
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@Jan 4 2004, 03:58 PM
I haven't searched around yet, but we ought to be able to wrap up the whole thing (cpu & ram) for £260, possibly slightly less if the price cuts we expect within the next 3 weeks materialises.
TL.
Well worth it IMHO. :) What parts are you planning on?
Sorry for the delay in the response.
CPU Upgrade: Intel Pentium 4 2.8GHz (533FSB) - £156.28
RAM Upgrade: TwinMOS 1GB (2x512MB) DDR PC3200 Dual Channel Kit - £110.16
We could save £2 by buying PC2700, but buying PC3200 will mean we can (hopefully) use it again on a future hardware upgrade. In the mean time the memory will quite happily auto-underclock to PC2700 speeds when we fit it.
How do we collect funds?We could ask within Charlie Company first, or to the whole group. We could also put a donate button onto our website (thanks to Sadako for the prompt). Here's the code needed for the paypal button - it uses my account which currently has a zero balance and if others are happy witht his, I would be pleased to act as the collecting point for the funds and then make the purchses. As before, I would cc Oldbloke and Stryker in with the receipts and provide full details of all donations so that there is an audit trail to confirm money in = money out.
Quote
The button that this script provides is a small VISA/Mastercard Donate button. Or we could insert our own image by simply editing that last line of code.
If we sent a bulk email to members we could include this link in the email:
Quotehttps://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=paulh%40pobox.com&item_name=dMw+Community+Fund&no_note=1&tax=0¤cy_code=GBP&lc=GB
This might be an alternative way of prompting people to donate.
We would need to post an rational to the forums so that people understand why we are asking for money when BA only went in earlier this year. I am happy to draft such a post for approval by the Admins before posting.
What do you think and are there any other ideas?
TL.
Should we see how far we get with admins first then move onto charlie and if we still dont have the funds go all...
First donation here of £50
Im not sure what everyone else was planning on putting in but thats 20% sorted.
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@Jan 10 2004, 11:07 AM
How do we collect funds?
I am happy to draft such a post for approval by the Admins before posting.
What do you think and are there any other ideas?
TL.
I think that the suggested hardware looks good. Good point with the PC3200 memory.
As for how to collect the money I think paypal link on the frontpage combined with a forum post is the way to go about it. I see no reason not to let all forums members see this. I still think that the majority of the donations will come from charlie and bravo.
Depending on how much money we collect, it might even be enough for a mobo too! :)
I have full confidence in you TL. Go go go! :thumb:
QuoteOriginally posted by smite@Jan 10 2004, 11:16 AM
First donation here of £50
Im not sure what everyone else was planning on putting in but thats 20% sorted.
I second that.
£50 here as well.
Up at 40% then I guess.
Fine, I donate fifty of the Queens fine Pounds for the cause.
Thank you for you donations gents, it is in advance of when I was going to start collecting, but thank you anyway :D
I need to check something with both of you. When you donated, did you get the option to pay by anything other than a credit card? For example would it accept money from a UK debit card or only from another Paypal account? The personal verified account can accept credit card payments, but it costs 3.4% + 20p per transaction (taken from the donation). If there is a cheaper option (other than credit card) then I should mention it in the post I will put up for members to contribute.
I am not convinced that just the Admins initially who should be asked for this money - I am tempted to include the whole community - Admins do a heck of a lot for the community already and I do not think it fair that any Bills have a first stop with the Admins. Whilst it is obviously great to go to the communtiy and say "the Admins have raised this much already, you do the rest", I do not want *any* Admin to feel obliged by way of this thread or their position as an Admin to donate money to this upgrade.
Sadako, in the mean time, could you add the PayPal button to the website on the bottom righthand side underneath the map rotation box please?
Thanks.
TL.
paypal is fine for small amounts, but I'll just send you a cheque like last time
OK, here is my suggested wording for the upgrade post to be placed in the Server Issues section fo the forums. Comments or OK go for it responses please.
TL.
QuotePlanned Server Upgrade
We advised you in this thread (http://forum.deadmen.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=4229) that there was some planned server maintenance that is likely to occur on either Saturday 24th or 31st January. We would now like to outline some of the work that we will be carrying out.
Switch from Linux to Windows
As some of you may know, the Linux code for Steam is at best ghastly and at worst crashes the server. Linux boxes that comfortably ran 4-6 CS servers under 1.5 are now struggling to run a single 16 person server on the same box. This is a Steam-wide issue and there has been no response or comment from Valve since Steam came out. It is highly likely that the lousy Valve binaries for Linux account for some if not most of the ping issues we have been experiencing during gameplay. Windows servers do not appear to be having these problems. In addition we have an expensive 3com server nic which we are currently unable to get to work alongside the onboard nic due to some 2.4 kernel issues.Â
The community's Debian (2.4 kernel) Linux box has a Pentium IV 2.0GHz with 1.0GB PC2100 RAM and currently runs 3 x 16 person servers and the forums. In order to help the lag issues and solve the dual nic problem we intend to install Windows 2003 Server and sadly, say goodbye to Linux for the timebeing.
Hardware Specification Upgrade
We rarely visit the server farm so it makes good sense to carry out any upgrades to hardware whilst we undertake the change from Linux to Windows. Our current motherboard will support up to PC2700 RAM and a PIV 2.8GHz (533Mhz)processor. The Admins have debated at some length what if anything to upgrade during this maintenance visit. We have concluded that it is not worth upgrading the motherboard to move to 64-bit CPUs just yet as the 64 bit binaries are not yet available and the technology is still overpriced. However as a cost-effective interim upgrade we have decided to install a new CPU and some new RAM as follows:
CPU Upgrade: Intel Pentium 4 2.8GHz (533FSB) - £156.28
RAM Upgrade: TwinMOS 1GB (2x512MB) DDR PC3200 Dual Channel Kit - £110.16
plus a small amount for postage.
We could save £2 by buying PC2700, but buying PC3200 will mean we can (hopefully) use it again on a future hardware upgrade. In the mean time the memory will quite happily auto-underclock to PC2700 speeds when we fit it.
The effect of the change to Windows and the upgraded hardware should, we are hoping, make a significant difference to the quality of the gameplay the community enjoys.Â
We are hoping to raise the funds for the upgrade via community donations. If you wish to donate money please visit the Dead mean Walking home page (http://www.deadmen.co.uk/) and click on the Donate button located at the lower right corner. Alternatively, click here (https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=paulh%40pobox.com&item_name=dMw+Community+Fund&no_note=1&tax=0%C3%82%C2%A4cy_code=GBP&lc=GB) to donate NOW.
All donations are gratefully accepted. The funds will be audited and controlled by TeaLeaf, Oldbloke and Stryker. Any surplus will be declared to the community and retained for community use. Any surplus hardware will be offered to the community for sale or re-use.
Thank you.
The Admins.
Note: The donation service is provided via Paypal who deduct a 3.4% plus 20p fee from each donation. Alternatively you may make an electronic funds transfer from your bank (send a PM to TeaLeaf for details). As a last resort then you can send a cheque c/o TeaLeaf (PM TL for info).
Tealeaf i will pay as i usually do through your bank details....
If JAS or Madness wish to pay i will pay the same way.
I will let you know when the money is sent.
No problems, just let me know how much and when etc. Any thoughts on public release of this to the server section?
If I hear nothing to the contrary by this evening I'll post it anyway.
TL.
It looks excellent as usual.
But also tell people about paypals charges
Webpage updated.
I payed with my VISA card through paypal. £50 but I am not sure how much you get or if it is me that pays the extra % fee.
The fee is deducted from the donation by Paypal. The fee mentioned above has been deducted and we have a little less than £50 in the fund. I have to say, from an administration and simplicity point of view, it is easier to do it through Paypal despite the charges because it is easier for me to track.
I'll go post the info in the main forum. I will edit in a comment about the charge.
TL.
Im sending mine in the morning, my on-line bank isn't up until the morning .......to your account (i have all your details still)
I was just wondering what was going to happen to the old processor and memory? If we get more than enough money for the upgrade we could go for a new mobo as well and then keep the old/current mobo+mem+cpu intact. This could maybe then be turned into a multiplayer game server supporting e.g. LFS and Halo? What do you think?
Is it possible?
Just an idea
The old processor and memory will either re-used in a dMw 'project' or sold with the proceeds being retained for the future upgrade. Oldbloke, Stryker and I need to finalise a few things before we know what will do.
A new machine would cost significantly more once you start adding the case cost and the peripherals, so I don't think that is an option just yet.
TL.
Money now in your bank TL....well it has left mine.
£50 from Albert. I joined dMw just after you had the fund raiser for Blackadder whereby getting a good deal, new clan with spanking new server. Considering the hours of pleasure it has given me I have no hesitation.
PM me you bank details and I'll use BACS to get it to you. ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by Sadako@Jan 11 2004, 10:23 AM
I was just wondering what was going to happen to the old processor and memory? If we get more than enough money for the upgrade we could go for a new mobo as well and then keep the old/current mobo+mem+cpu intact. This could maybe then be turned into a multiplayer game server supporting e.g. LFS and Halo? What do you think?
Is it possible?
Just an idea
I have a two 40GB 5200rpm HDDs, 512MB of RAM and a 1700+ on a socket whatever dooh dahh mobo that can be donated for gaming. I also have a GEF4 Ti4200 which is up for grabs. I still haven't found which of the aforementioned parts is faulty, or the PC would be working now. It may be the PSU as I've replaced the mobo, gfx and cooling system. I don't think I've borken the CPU.
QuoteOriginally posted by albert@Jan 11 2004, 07:07 PM
I have a two 40GB 5200rpm HDDs, 512MB of RAM and a 1700+ on a socket whatever dooh dahh mobo that can be donated for gaming. I also have a GEF4 Ti4200 which is up for grabs. I still haven't found which of the aforementioned parts is faulty, or the PC would be working now. It may be the PSU as I've replaced the mobo, gfx and cooling system. I don't think I've borken the CPU.
Cheers Albert. Why not put the hardware up for sale and get them to pay the money to the Paypal donation button instead? That way we benefit and other peeps benefit from the kit. Whilst the offer of the kit is welcomed, it is unlikely that it would be possible to use it in our current set up, so selling it makes more sense. What do you think? I could always open up a For Sale section or something similar.
TL.
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf+Jan 11 2004, 10:38 PM-->
| QUOTE (TeaLeaf @ Jan 11 2004, 10:38 PM) |
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