Posting this here so the plebs can't see it. This is Penfold's comment:
Quote from: Penfold;402852I do agree but I also feel that sometimes it's the same people time and time again which take the non-standard weapons. I've watched as people hare off to the particular ammo box to grab the one sniper rifle or the one gun with a better scope. It's the same people each time and it does get tiresome.
Just my two cents.
Here's my suggestion:
1. Remove ammo boxes from the mission, set player loadouts.
2. Have everyone join the server - tell everyone in TS to un-assign themselves from all roles in the setup screen and to wait for further instructions.
3. Team leader assigns himself to that role.
4. Team leader assigns players over TS, one at a time, to the roles he wants them to play. Nobody picks a role until asked to.
5. Start mission. Have fun. No dicking about with loadouts for 20 minutes.
Thoughts? I'm finding the amount of time spent waiting for people to rummage through ammo boxes for thermal scopes etc
incredibly tiresome. Give people a gun and tell them to like it or scavenge a better one.
Yes I agree that the protracted loadouts is a PITA and in truth, I'm probably one of the worst.
The whole gun-grabbing thing goes hand-in-hand with people's previous complaints of selfish gameplay. Be it failing to revive others a the first opportunity or frankly just wanted to be top of the kill-board. We have lost several players because of this and I don't want to see more go because of the way others play.
To be fair, EVERYONE is a lot lot better at the revives now which is at least something.
The Gun-grabbing is another matter. Without wanting to offend TwoBad but Puff and Blob are guilty of this as is Sulky and his crew.
Your idea has merit but it'd be a shame to have regulate to that much of a degree but I do agree something needs to be done. At least the advantage of the virtual ammobox is that it gives everyone a fair crack but does make us superhard.
Even if it just gets rotated it would be better rather than how it is currently.
Anyway, It'll be interesting to see what t'others have to say. :)
I'll also add that when I play on the FolkARPS server, this is how they run things., which has two main benefits:
1. The team/squad leader knows what he has as his disposal in terms of kit
2. You don't end up with a team of snipers
Arma is supposed to be a Mil-Sim, we should be playing it like one.
Yup, happy to try anything really to break the impasse.
I know members find it irksome just as I've been told it's the reason some have stopped playing. Whatever we can do to solve gets my vote. (Well would if I had one :)).
Quote from: Tutonic;4028561. Remove ammo boxes from the mission, set player loadouts.
2. Have everyone join the server - tell everyone in TS to un-assign themselves from all roles in the setup screen and to wait for further instructions.
3. Team leader assigns himself to that role.
4. Team leader assigns players over TS, one at a time, to the roles he wants them to play. Nobody picks a role until asked to.
5. Start mission. Have fun. No dicking about with loadouts for 20 minutes.
Sounds like a great idea to me...
The reason i dont play on a Sunday any more is because of the problems mentioned, i simply stopped enjoying it because of it. I would definitely start playing again if we could find a resolution. This seems reasonable and isn't too strict and everyone will know what their role is. Its a shame because we shouldn't have to make these changes really, everyone should know what is expected of them when playing Arma, its a hard enough game as it is without these issues.
We could also make more maps that have preset loadouts. Most of my maps don't have scopes, snipers rifles etc. I think one of mine started with everyone in their pants! If they're not there in the first place then people can't abuse the system. I think a lot of the more recent maps come with bespoke weapon loadouts.
That being said the recent nose dive in standards had ended my time with Arma.
Quote from: Penfold;402858The Gun-grabbing is another matter. Without wanting to offend TwoBad but Puff and Blob are guilty of this...
No offense take Pen, this isn't the first time i've had a different view to yours of their play. If you are talking about they like a specific gun then yes, they grab that one, as do i. I have a saved loadout (as do they) which i am very fond of, as do many of the players on our server. I cannot for the life of me see any issue with that.
However, there are issues i want to get address across different areas.
If the designated Team Leader asks for someone to use a specific loadout, they should, without any questions. Also, if they ask that we don't have too many players with big sniper rifles etc then we should all be grown up enough to sort that without any further instruction.
If we are playing a mission where we are given free loadout then i wouldn't expect someone to be at the ammobox for too long. If its a free loadout then i would expect it to be a favorite of the play, in which case, why is it not already saved? Takes second to load from saved.
One of the reason i have created Camp Carry On is to give people a chance to taste all the weapons and vehicles available, that's why i put in a shooting range. Find some loadouts you like and save them, at least that
was the idea. I floated the idea last Sunday the we should ban people low flying over the base etc, i am also getting a bit ****** off with people using ground weapons to shoot aircraft down, i didn't put them in for that. They are there to give people who don't normally use them a chance to see what they are like.
I really don't like the idea of
only playing restricted weapon maps. That may sound strange considering a good portion of my most recent maps have been just that, i think we need a mix. But as stated in the point above, i would expect players to have loadouts pre-saved to save time.
Prior to this week i have played all but one (when i was ill) of the Sundays over the last 6 or 7 weeks where i have been the only admin on. Generally, the numbers have been low but the standard of play has been improving. Indeed, two weeks ago it was just six of us, Puff, Blob, Nuka, John and someone else i forget. The standard of play and comms was excellent. Puff lead, for the whole evening for the first time, orders were followed, we all stayed together and looked after each other and complete a vanilla mission, one which we have never managed to before.
This week we had 10 players and i have to say it was like chalk and cheese. I know my map had some bugs in it particularly with the kits and i apologise for that. However, following orders went way out the window. Puff lead again and i know he got really frustrated, at one point he asked us all to group up on where he marked "Here" on the map. OB and i were there (and maybe one other person) everyone else had pushed on down the road and engaging the next set of enemies, it was at that point most of us got killed btw.
It's the not following orders which i think is the biggest problem right now. Indeed, i remember someone in this thread not so long ago disobeying a direct order to hold position and pushed forward in a soft vehicle on to enemy armour to "see if anyone was in it" which of course they were and i got killed as i was a passenger.
As was seen on Sunday, some people seem to have little respect for the mission makers ideas which is then only compounded if the Leaders orders are ignored. If we can get this address without ******* everyone off it would be a huge improvement.
As for you specific points Tut:
1. Remove ammo boxes from the mission, set player loadouts.You already know i like missions like this, but not all the time. However, if you want a specific loaded, get on the server early and get it sorted and saved.
2. Have everyone join the server - tell everyone in TS to un-assign themselves from all roles in the setup screen and to wait for further instructions.
3. Team leader assigns himself to that role
4. Team leader assigns players over TS, one at a time, to the roles he wants them to play. Nobody picks a role until asked to.We join un-assigned anyway but i think telling people what to play is a little excessive unless unless the leader want a position filled which has been left or if someone wants to try something new but finds the slot always taken (Medic is a good example of late)
5. Start mission. Have fun. No dicking about with loadouts for 20 minutes.Agreed, we need to get back to on the Server 7.45 at the latest for an 8pm start.
One thing i have seen which i really like the idea of is post mission debrief. So rather that everyone just leaving the server the second the mission is over, we stay in game and TS and the lead admin for the evening gives constrictive feed back without pointing fingers while everything is fresh in everyone's mind. If further detail is require a post can be made in the forum but relying on a post i think will be missed by some.
Anyway, i've said a lot there. Happy to hear thoughts...
Quote from: TwoBad;402870No offense take Pen, this isn't the first time I've had a different view to yours of their play.
Thanks for the comprehensive reply which I'll go through. Please don't think this is aimed squarely at your two as it isn't. There's plenty of other members which should know better tbh. Puff and Blob are young (the gits) and their exuberance and energy is great. It's also understandable. TBH, it's the older members I have more of an issue with as you'll see if you trawl back through this forum.
:)
Quote from: TwoBad;402870No offense take Pen, this isn't the first time i've had a different view to yours of their play. If you are talking about they like a specific gun then yes, they grab that one, as do i. I have a saved loadout (as do they) which i am very fond of, as do many of the players on our server. I cannot for the life of me see any issue with that.
Aye, I think when there's a full range of options then people are free to use abnd play with what they most enjoy. It's more if there's a limation - one sniper, one GPMG etc then it becomes an issue
Quote from: TwoBad;402870If the designated Team Leader asks for someone to use a specific loadout, they should, without any questions. Also, if they ask that we don't have too many players with big sniper rifles etc then we should all be grown up enough to sort that without any further instruction.
Indeed
Quote from: TwoBad;402870If we are playing a mission where we are given free loadout then i wouldn't expect someone to be at the ammobox for too long. If its a free loadout then i would expect it to be a favorite of the play, in which case, why is it not already saved? Takes second to load from saved.
Indeed
Quote from: TwoBad;402870One of the reason i have created Camp Carry On is to give people a chance to taste all the weapons and vehicles available, that's why i put in a shooting range. Find some loadouts you like and save them, at least that was the idea. I floated the idea last Sunday the we should ban people low flying over the base etc, i am also getting a bit ****** off with people using ground weapons to shoot aircraft down, i didn't put them in for that. They are there to give people who don't normally use them a chance to see what they are like.
Aye. It's good to use this. Having lost everything with a W10 upgrade, I've gone back through and tried to recreate my load outs - infantry, medic and AT. People enjoy practicising flying or whatever and I agree it's annoying they're shot out the sky for the hell of it.
Quote from: TwoBad;402870I really don't like the idea of only playing restricted weapon maps. That may sound strange considering a good portion of my most recent maps have been just that, i think we need a mix. But as stated in the point above, i would expect players to have loadouts pre-saved to save time.
I like Virtual ammobox games as I'm a lazy sod and I can press a button. The latest tranche of maps are more challenging but no less fun. Except, perhaps, for the top point when there's limited 'good' guns and they're snagged PDQ.
Quote from: TwoBad;402870Prior to this week i have played all but one (when i was ill) of the Sundays over the last 6 or 7 weeks where i have been the only admin on. Generally, the numbers have been low but the standard of play has been improving. Indeed, two weeks ago it was just six of us, Puff, Blob, Nuka, John and someone else i forget. The standard of play and comms was excellent. Puff lead, for the whole evening for the first time, orders were followed, we all stayed together and looked after each other and complete a vanilla mission, one which we have never managed to before.
I'm guessing Sulky wasn't on then :flirty:. JOKING but the more we have the less fun it becomes. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn if I say that Oldie, for example, will usually only play if there's a small group.
Quote from: TwoBad;402870This week we had 10 players and i have to say it was like chalk and cheese. I know my map had some bugs in it particularly with the kits and i apologise for that. However, following orders went way out the window. Puff lead again and i know he got really frustrated, at one point he asked us all to group up on where he marked "Here" on the map. OB and i were there (and maybe one other person) everyone else had pushed on down the road and engaging the next set of enemies, it was at that point most of us got killed btw.
It's the not following orders which i think is the biggest problem right now. Indeed, i remember someone in this thread not so long ago disobeying a direct order to hold position and pushed forward in a soft vehicle on to enemy armour to "see if anyone was in it" which of course they were and i got killed as i was a passenger.
Totally agree. Commander's order are sacrosanct imo and I imagine it's double hard for a younger member to keep the unruly mob to heel. if necessary Oldie or you should back up the leader and tell people to obey.
Quote from: TwoBad;402870As was seen on Sunday, some people seem to have little respect for the mission makers ideas which is then only compounded if the Leaders orders are ignored. If we can get this address without ******* everyone off it would be a huge improvement.
Perhaps we make this part of a strategic overview and also part of a revamp which is potentially in the wings as it is?
----------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: TwoBad;402870As for you specific points Tut:
1. Remove ammo boxes from the mission, set player loadouts.
You already know i like missions like this, but not all the time. However, if you want a specific loaded, get on the server early and get it sorted and saved.
2. Have everyone join the server - tell everyone in TS to un-assign themselves from all roles in the setup screen and to wait for further instructions.
3. Team leader assigns himself to that role
4. Team leader assigns players over TS, one at a time, to the roles he wants them to play. Nobody picks a role until asked to.
We join un-assigned anyway but i think telling people what to play is a little excessive unless unless the leader want a position filled which has been left or if someone wants to try something new but finds the slot always taken (Medic is a good example of late)
5. Start mission. Have fun. No dicking about with loadouts for 20 minutes.
Agreed, we need to get back to on the Server 7.45 at the latest for an 8pm start.
One thing i have seen which i really like the idea of is post mission debrief. So rather that everyone just leaving the server the second the mission is over, we stay in game and TS and the lead admin for the evening gives constrictive feed back without pointing fingers while everything is fresh in everyone's mind. If further detail is require a post can be made in the forum but relying on a post i think will be missed by some.
Anyway, i've said a lot there. Happy to hear thoughts...
Regarding medic - whether it's the actual medic role of self-designated from an infantry slot then loading up on first aid, tends to be my default position. TBH I just don't see the enemy half the time and enjoy the support role. Oldie is similarly-minded. Obviously happy to do what is needed / called for.
So from what I can gathers is the following
We are still having issues of people not following orders.
People not having a saved preset and so lots of time messing around getting the kit right.
It good to see the revive issues is not really a concern.
So ways round this
Not listening to the leaders is one of the biggest issues we have had and is a continual battle. I have not been around so I have not been able to back up the leaders and the admins with this issue.
All we can do is get harsher as if someone is not doing what told we have to jump on them.
Kit: we have a few missions where we have assigned kit and that is down to the map maker and that is fine by me.
If we have a map that has a choice of kit people should be having preload set up. I have 3 one is command, one assult and one all the explosions. Not hard to do and if we need a little extra it shouldn't take 20mins.
So a post up saying words to that effect should be good along with with at 8pm we move out ready or not. And we actually do that.
How does that sound?
Sent from my Nexus 5
A word of caution ...
Don't rush to make changes just to appease the few players who have stopped playing the game to the detriment of the majority who still play weekly.
Agreed there oldie it was just some ideas to put down. We need to figure out what works the best for all.
But we need to nip somethings again in the bud.
Sent from my Nexus 5
Strong debate, I like it :)
I already have about 6 loadouts saved in the virtual ammobox. See a guy stood next to it while everyone else is crashing jets into each other? That's me, making sure they're all up to date. This is partially why it irritates me so much that people spend SO much time digging through the ammo box before we can get started.
The current virtual ammo box we use is good, but it's not exactly user friendly. Have we considered using the 'Arsenal' system which was included in the Bootcamp update? https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arsenal
Appreciate that my stance on fixed loadouts is a little extreme for some, but I'm sure we can find a compromise that works for everyone. These are just my suggestions on how to try and bring a little order to the chaos which can start to happen with large numbers of players on the server.
Following orders could probably be another thread entirely, but I've always thought that once you get 10+ players on, splitting into sub teams with separate TS channels is the way to go. Commander talks to squad leaders, SL's relay orders to their guys and tries to make sure they stick together.
So is the root of the problem mainly down to when we have large numbers on a Sunday? I've been having a think and it makes sense, I've not enjoyed it as much when there has been more players on (which is foreign to me because I'm usually of the more the merrier attitude).
Maybe we could just start by enforcing the 'cut out the chit chat and listen to your leader' part a bit more?
Quote from: Penfold;402872I'm guessing Sulky wasn't on then
As far as i am concerned it really doesn't matter who it is at the moment, we play as a team (or want to at least) so we all have the problem. To a degree, we as admins have allowed this to happen and so we will need to fix. Looking back at last Sunday, yes it was Sulky taking the **** at the start of the mission and i did have words about it but i probably should have had a stronger word rather than just saying don't do it.
Quote from: OldBloke;402875A word of caution ...
Don't rush to make changes just to appease the few players who have stopped playing the game to the detriment of the majority who still play weekly.
Yes i totally agree. However, you say the majority, i would have to say the pool of people who have stopped playing is pretty damn large and the reasons laid out in this thread are clear. If we can fix these issues then i think it will be better for ALL, not just the ones who currently play very rarely.
Quote from: Tutonic;402903I already have about 6 loadouts saved in the virtual ammobox. See a guy stood next to it while everyone else is crashing jets into each other? That's me, making sure they're all up to date.
This is a behavior we need to re-promote. I have stated this was one of the reasons for that map but it has turned a little too silly on there now. This will change.
Quote from: Tutonic;402903This is partially why it irritates me so much that people spend SO much time digging through the ammo box before we can get started.
Agreed
Quote from: Tutonic;402903The current virtual ammo box we use is good, but it's not exactly user friendly. Have we considered using the 'Arsenal' system which was included in the Bootcamp update? https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Arsenal
I think it depends on what you are used to. I have played using the 'Arsenal' system and found it a little slow but i'm sure i would speed up as i got used to it. Perhaps it is something we should look at for the future. The main reason for sticking with the current system are the other things bundled with it, View Distance, Revive (with external view when dead so at least we have something to look at most of the time) etc. Something which we have used a little in the Ammobox is the give loadout. There is the ability to send another player your loadout, we should use this to make sure no one has any excuses.
Quote from: Tutonic;402903Following orders could probably be another thread entirely, but I've always thought that once you get 10+ players on, splitting into sub teams with separate TS channels is the way to go. Commander talks to squad leaders, SL's relay orders to their guys and tries to make sure they stick together.
This is something i would like to make more use of but i think we need to deal with the underlying issue first.
Quote from: Sparko;402918So is the root of the problem mainly down to when we have large numbers on a Sunday?
I think that's a yes and no. Large numbers certainly show our weaknesses and remove enjoyment from the game but the problem is always there no matter the numbers.
Quote from: Sparko;402918Maybe we could just start by enforcing the 'cut out the chit chat and listen to your leader' part a bit more?
Yes, we don't need to be draconian about it but.... we do need to cut out all the crap we seem to get once the numbers hit 7 or 8 +
I think enforcing/promoting the 7.45 be on the server to get ready (instead of the 8pm start), weapon loadouts ready rule, and if you're not ready when its time to start at 8 then tough, you go with what you have will be a good start to getting some of the discipline back.