I feel (with my very limited time in one - thanks Kal-Nor) that the Constellation is not a ship that will really work when solo crewed. And I accept it was never meant to be. It's fun to fly and I'm sure the developers are getting great feedback and bug reports, but for getting much done around the baby PU it's clearly not going to do well. It can obviously be flown solo and the pilot can fire the main guns at stuff, but that's all. We're beginning to see how a multi crew ship can function and flying the Constellation solo is really only getting a small part of the effect. This ship needs half a dozen people all working together to really make it shine.
To a lesser extend I think the Freelancer and even the Cutlass will be at their best with a second and maybe even third crew member. The HUD's on these ships aren't complete but already I can see how having one player concentrating on flying and firing while another works the avionics and shields will make the Freelancer a much more formidable ship. I can see the second crew member moving power from the shields to the guns to the avionics as needs dictate. They can also move the shield strength about to protect the parts of the ship that are coming under fire.
I imagine a Freelancer being attacked by a Hornet. If the Hornet is behind the Freelancer then the crew member shifts power away from the guns into the shields and then push the shield power to the rear. The pilot might then decouple and spin the ship around. The crew member quickly moves power away from the engines and into the front shields and guns as the pilot opens fire on the approaching Hornet. This kind of co-operation may be what balances out a bigger ship when up against one or more single seater fighters. Add in a tail gunner and maybe a forth crew member running about putting out fires and fixing damaged areas and a Freelancer becomes a whole different ship to fight against.
I wonder that as the game grows and more of us meet up in the PU, the idea of having your own set of ships that you fly alongside other dMw players in an Elite/BSGO way will not really be the normal way we play. More we'll always be looking to get together in a smaller number of ships and some of us may spend as much time crewing for other players as we do flying our own ships. For those who have played Arma with us and crewed up in Tanks and APC's etc I think this is going to be closer to the Star Citizen experience. While flying Star Citizen solo is always an option I think it's going to play more like a Sunday Arma night than a traditional Space Sim/Fighter game.
Just a thought.
Quote from: smilodon;409438I wonder that as the game grows and more of us meet up in the PU, the idea of having your own set of ships that you fly alongside other dMw players in an Elite/BSGO way will not really be the normal way we play. More we'll always be looking to get together in a smaller number of ships and some of us may spend as much time crewing for other players as we do flying our own ships. For those who have played Arma with us and crewed up in Tanks and APC's etc I think this is going to be closer to the Star Citizen experience. While flying Star Citizen solo is always an option I think it's going to play more like a Sunday Arma night than a traditional Space Sim/Fighter game.
Just a thought.
I'm getting the same feeling from the little 2.1 PU, Retaliator and Connie seemed way to big without a crew, and there's not a hope in hell NPC crew are going to be able to pull off the power/weapon/shield juggling in the Freelancer you just described, that's why I'm gravitating to smaller ships, SH is very cool solo and can always provide a dedicated avionics/turret seat for a friend which will make it a beast in combat I think, Cutlass seems comfortable solo as well as having options for one or two extra friends.... Maybe I need to look at the biggest cargo runner I can fly reasonably well solo as my 3rd ship, Freelancer Max maybe, just for raking in creds in a non combat role, and save ideas of a truly huge multi crew ship for in game credits and running with the DMW fleet !?
Presently there's a lot of backers that are crying out for these ships to fly solo or at least with a NPC crew. I have a fear that they will get their wish as they will dumb down the role for a NPC to do affectively. It may even be the case for a NPC to do the job better. If we look at the present gunner role. They could easily allow a NPC to have a built in locator setup for targeting ships. (Basically cheat) This would give the NPC an advantage over a player based on the present build as orientation in the gunner seat is a nightmare as you just can't keep your target in sight long enough. Turrets need to be either more powerful or have a wider range of sight.
But Chris always said that players can fly solo but they may not be effective solo... So who knows. What ever happens I'm sure a player based crews will have an advantage over a single player and NPC crew. What we need to work out is:-
1. Will a 5 man Connie crew beat a 5 man fighter crew?
2. Will a 5 man Connie crew beat five single players in 5 Connie's?
These are the challenges and if Chris doesn't address this and try to give the bigger ship and more human crew an advantage then it will lead to a mass of single player run ships.
Personally and IMHO if after all the advice and information that has come out of CIG someone buys a multi crew ship thinking they will be able to solo in it effectively then they only have themselves to blame. The last official comments I heard was that NPC's would be able to be crew in ships but it was a long way down the line and not a priority. When they are implemented they would start dumb and have to gain skill (level up) which would not be a trivial thing to do. If they were a better crew member they would cost more UEC to hire. We're only going to be able to buy a finite amount of UEC for real money (I've heard about $25-30 a month but that's a bit speculative as it came from Reddit!). So buying a ship and a full crew of elite crewmembers isn't an option for anyone. Also no NPC would have the same ability as a player crew member. I suspect that due to the limitations of game AI as it is a design decision by CIG. A pilot certainly could not tell an NPC what they were about to do over voice comms and expect a appropriate action. Chris Roberts has gone on at length about how Star Citizen is a skill based game with no leveling and no pay to win features. You can buy all the guns and missiles you want but if you can't dogfight as well as you opponent you'll lose.
This was a point covered when I was lucky enough to speak with Chris Roberts in London. As we know there are going to be lots of player activities apart from flying and fighting. Mining, ship repair, refining, salvage etc etc. A cording to Chris Roberts all these tasks will have for want of a better term 'mini-games' associated with carrying them out. So two players using identical mining gear will get two very different yields if one of them is able to balance the controls, drill bits, cooling and whatever else more effectively than the other player can. Likewise balancing shields and power in a multi crew ship.
Idiots will always moan but I hope by now CIG are big enough and focused enough to make the game they planned and not the one a vocal minority of easy mode players think they want
:)
Quote from: Kal-Nor;409444But Chris always said that players can fly solo but they may not be effective solo... So who knows. What ever happens I'm sure a player based crews will have an advantage over a single player and NPC crew. What we need to work out is:-
1. Will a 5 man Connie crew beat a 5 man fighter crew?
2. Will a 5 man Connie crew beat five single players in 5 Connie's?
These are the challenges and if Chris doesn't address this and try to give the bigger ship and more human crew an advantage then it will lead to a mass of single player run ships.
To be honest i don't think either of those options are good either... 5 fighters should be a nightmare for even a fully manned Connie IMO, what i would like to see though is that a Connie be a nightmare for a single or maybe 2 fighters, the size of a Connie it should be carrying such heavy shields compared to say a Hornet that even a couple of them should have trouble just wearing it down, at the minute though in 2.1 Connies hold no fear for me in my SH, that doesn't feel right. I think a huge shield/armour boost and better turrets is a fairly simple answer though, why the Connies bottom turret is STILL not entered upside down like the Retaliator is beyond me, in 10 for the Chairman out today Chris does mention turret improvements coming soon so fingers crossed. Also i personally wouldn't like to see a 5 man Connie crew be able to tackle 5 single player crewed Connies, 2 maybe, 3 possibly, but 5 Connies is still a LOT of guns and missiles aiming at you !
Still, i guess we will start seeing plenty of balancing now we are live, so watch this space i guess ?
It will also depend on how much effect shields have when boosted in one area. If you're solo and up against a Constellation or Freelancer etc with a good avionics/shield operator your fighter is always going to be facing a maxed out shield. The other side of the Connie might be completely unprotected but if the side facing you is always fully powered up I would imagine it would be a nightmare trying to punch through especially when your under fire from the hopefully fully working turrets. Like one Messerschmitt vs one Lancaster Bomber it would be a bit of a one sided battle. Hopefully a crewed ship would need several fighters working together to take it down. And if all else fails with those big size 4 and 5 engines they could hopefully just run away.
I guess we'll see. From my very brief time as Kal-Nor's co-pilot it's certainly looking promising.
The 5 man Connie crew wouldn't need to win the fight v 5 single player connies, they would just need to damage two of the ships to make it an advantage to man stations. If your enemy is losing ships 2:1 then the senario works out in the players manned ship favour.
If the single player decides to have a 5 man NPC crew then from a cost point of view he's already going to lose out. Five players hiring 25 NPCs, then you only need to keep the ratio to 1:1 as the cost of keeping that amount of NPC crew and ships going is going to be tough on any org.
I just want CIG to consider this as they build the game.
Edit: Especially when you consider players get to respawn.
I thought I'd split out a thread for discussing multi crew ships. Currently the best piece I can find related to the subject is a Letter from the Chairman back in Dec 2014. Makes and interesting read. It would also help explain why the HUDs on the single seaters seems to be set and remains unchanged from Arena Commander while the multi crew ships seem incomplete at the moment.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14354-Letter-From-The-Chairman (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14354-Letter-From-The-Chairman)
I might split off some of the other conversations and bring them here, as long as doing so doesn't break the other threads.
Has there been any further word on using your extra character slots to create NPC's ? I know it's not the real answer to multi crew but if we can rustle up a cheap NPC for the Freelancer/Cutlass turret that's even better...
This is speculation at this point, not only has nothing been finalised, but its based on a few pieces of information that I've come across in passing:
1. Originally people were told that having 'another game based pledge' on your account would give you an NPC slot - effectively a slave you could use. This has since been thrown out.
2. While having another pledge does give you another slot to play with, that slot, if used as a custom (appearance) NPC would still need to be paid.
3. This is to encourage people with larger ships to team play and 'spread the wealth' as it were.
Now I have a few multi crew ships, but nothing hitting the scale where it'd be impossible to fly solo in some way. I want crew members to be real PC's rather than NPC's and i've no problem with sharing whatever bounties (after repairs and consumables of course!) become available. This, to me, highlights that we will have to work together quite closely to make this work out financially. While I know some people prefer solo play, there would be nothing stopping you flying without a turret. In all honesty, the turrets aren't that effective anyway. One of the reasons why I dropped the 'Tali (beautiful though it is). Its already been said that while the AI will be pretty good, it won't be a scratch on real experience of almost any level. Take from this what you will, but I don't think you're going to get free NPC's.
There is nothing to suggest that there won't be upgrades for automated turrets though. I mean class 9 (Phoenix owners confirmed ;) ) slots are considered point-defence for shooting down missiles. So the idea of weapon automation is there.
I'm also intrigued to see what happens after the 14th Feb when SQ42 and SC actually split, at some point I'm guessing we will get some UEC for our extras like we did for Alpha, the forums will explode if they just merge 4 copies of SQ42 into 1 with no compensation :ranting2:
I thought I'd split out a thread for discussing multi crew ships. Currently the best piece I can find related to the subject is a Letter from the Chairman back in Dec 2014. Makes and interesting read. It would also help explain why the HUDs on the single seaters seems to be set and remains unchanged from Arena Commander while the multi crew ships seem incomplete at the moment.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14354-Letter-From-The-Chairman (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14354-Letter-From-The-Chairman)
I might split off some of the other conversations and bring them here, as long as doing so doesn't break the other threads.
Quote from: AndyBee;409746I'm also intrigued to see what happens after the 14th Feb when SQ42 and SC actually split, at some point I'm guessing we will get some UEC for our extras like we did for Alpha, the forums will explode if they just merge 4 copies of SQ42 into 1 with no compensation :ranting2:
Why? If backers choose to buy multi packages instead of getting the standalone version that's their option. If they wanted more character slots to have multiply players in game then that's the price for doing it and they have chosen to except that. If they wanted a few NPCs, then they could of waited for them to go on sale closer to release. If you've bought you package before the Feb date then you can still sell it on as a duel package, so I can't see why they would handout UEC.
What changes for present packages?
Your forgetting a lot of people with multiple packages have had so for literally years, i know I have, (my SQ42 T-shirt is probably going to be worn out before SQ42 releases !) when there was no option to buy a standalone ship in some cases, you bought a Freelancer, you got SC/SQ42/Freelancer/UEC, that was back when SQ42 was going to be a bunch of single player missions within the PU, not the mammoth AAA standalone with Hollywood stars and mocaped actors we have now...
Don't get me wrong I'm personally not bothered, but CIG always put incentives in game packages over ships, like SQ42 and a bunch of UEC for an extra $10, they understandably wanted to sell packages not standalone ships, that's now come back to bite them with the escalation of SQ42, through no fault of there own, I'm sure in there wildest dreams in the Kickstarter they weren't saying off camera in the live stream "someone get that guy from Batman and the woman from X-files on the phone, I can feel $100,000,000 coming !" .... If SQ42 was as original pitched, basically just a bunch of cool single player missions you could do to set the scene, learn how to fly and earn some creds before you dropped into the PU, no one would care, but now it's a big deal and they are going to be charging separately for it people are going to cry foul if CIG decide to roll all those individual SQ42's into one.....
Anyway, I think, like Alpha when that got wiped, at some point when we account bind a second SQ42, Star Map, Digital Game Soundtrack, etc, etc we will probably just get a token UEC handout, it's not like it costs them anything and will nullify the entitlement jockeys before they get up speed :)
As far as I know nothing. I suppose some people might be annoyed that they have effectively bought several copies of Squadron 42, a single player game. Of course every time we buy a package we are clearly told that it contains a copy of Squadron 42. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out that if you buy two packages then you have bought two copies of Squadron 42 :) I'd assume people would realise this and if they wanted more than one pledge would be buying it for the additional things they need.
If players bought pledges to give them their own personal NPC slots then I wonder if this is still current?
QuoteJust to clarify, as I think your concern is off base, the system we are proposing only increases the options that you have - I don't see how it is a cash grab or something that takes away from what most people were expecting (and what most online games give you)
Normally in a standard non subscription MMO setup you would have one character. If you want to play multiple characters simultaneously (say your scenario of an explorer / salvager or a smuggler or miner) you would have to open multiple accounts. You could of course do all these things from one character (there's no reason why you couldn't be an explorer / salvager / miner that does some smuggling on the side). Star Citizen by its design lets you be / do whoever you want to be. There are no class restrictions - you want to be a law abiding citizen and then "break bad" and become a pirate you can. This is a core tenant of the design. You should not think of Star Citizen the way you would a traditional MMO with tightly bound character classes that force you to have different characters (tank, healer, ranged etc) for different roles. Our versions of multiple classes are really the multiple ships you have in your hangar.
The solution we proposed was to address the issue of people have multiple game packages but wanting to combine all the assets under one character but not lose the value of their "game keys" (which in our in-fiction setup become Character Slots). This allows people to get a benefit from a game package they were feeling they were losing, either by gifting to a friend to join them as crew (or buy just a ship and join the game), play multiple characters from the same account (as opposed to having to open up separate accounts) or by turning the slot into a customizable character for their crew (think the tight knit crew of the Serenity)
Also to be clear when a Character Slot NPC dies, you get to create another one to take his place, much like you would create a successor in the Death of a Spaceman mechanic. If you've designated a Character Slot NPC as your Character's successor, then the Character Slot NPC becomes your player character and you can chose to have your deceased player character slot either go back into your Character Slot pool or turn him / her into a Character Slot NPC (think of it as recruiting a new team member after the death of another)
We are only offering people the ability to buy additional Character Slots as if we didn't we would get a lot of people complaining they don't want to have to buy a full package just to get an additional character or have the ability to customize an NPC. Its actually financially worse for us as previously you would need to buy a game package to get in the game or play multiple characters at once. Now we're allowing a cheaper (but more limited) option. Please remember that I want the game to only require the purchase of a base game package and after that you should be able to pay for free if you want - there is nothing outside the initial game package (which a character slot is a baby version of) that is only purchasable by money. Everything else, ships, equipment, real estate is all purchasable via UEC credits which can be earned via gameplay.
Once Star Citizen is live creating ongoing content, new functionality and running online servers costs money. As Star Citizen isn't a subscription MMO our only sources of revenue to support these ongoing costs are initial game packages, Squadron 42 sized single player stories (think Wing Commander mission packs) and the people willing to trade some money for UEC as they don't have the time or patience to earn in game. There's a lot of people out there that think I'm crazy for taking this route (as most online games have a lot of cash only game items to generate money via micro-transactions) but I'm betting that Star Citizen with its low overhead will do well enough to allow us to continue to manage and expand the universe, even if we don't bring in the money the way World of Tanks, World of Warcraft or League of Legends do.
-Chris Roberts
also
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13288-Multiple-Package-Clarification (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13288-Multiple-Package-Clarification)
I'm not aware that this statement has been changed? If not then we can either buy packages to gain character slots or simply buy them for real money (one of the very few things purchasable with real cash when the game goes fully live). My plan is to buy NPC characters, my own Firefly crew, in the store rather than buy additional pledges. This is a better option for me as I always tend to play MMO's with a single main character. I know some players can happily run a whole collection of characters (I';m looking at you TeaLeaf :worship: but I can barely look after one!
It would be good to know if the ability to buy personal character slots has gone away?
Quote from: smilodon;409772
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13288-Multiple-Package-Clarification (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13288-Multiple-Package-Clarification)
I'm not aware that this statement has been changed? If not then we can either buy packages to gain character slots or simply buy them for real money (one of the very few things purchasable with real cash when the game goes fully live). My plan is to buy NPC characters, my own Firefly crew, in the store rather than buy additional pledges. This is a better option for me as I always tend to play MMO's with a single main character. I know some players can happily run a whole collection of characters (I';m looking at you TeaLeaf :worship: but I can barely look after one!
It would be good to know if the ability to buy personal character slots has gone away?
I'd forgotten all about that second link you put in, jeez this game really does go back a long way :rolleyes: .... I remember them saying now we can gift character slots, extra maps etc to friends, I wonder if the plan was to extend that to SQ42 ? I mean it DID a include SC packages ... but that statement, even if it's from CR, is so old, this whole project has just escalated wildly since then, I mean the Alpha/UEC payout was never on the cards back then either....
May be it would be easier just to let players with multiple packages to have multiable copies of SQ42 which they would then give to friends, which would then encourage their friends to buy into the PU. But eitherway I'm sure the forums will flair up as whatever CIG do they are going to upset someone. :)
Sadly I think you're right ... Forums won't be happy whatever, personally I think letting people with multiple copies of SQ42 gift it away devalues it, but a lot of people will have the mindset that they bought multiple copies of a single player game and it should be there's to use as they see fit, it's quite a huge thing now SQ42, looks like it could to be on a par with the likes of Far Cry and other FPS style standalone story driven games, I'd prefer they did like the Alpha business and just said here's 5k/10k UEC thanks very much now move along :)