Hi all, I thought I'd share some of my experiences 'delidding' my new CPU. First of all, some basics -
Think of a CPU as 3 parts for this exercise. First is the CPU 'die'. This is the clever bit that does all of the work. Second is the integrated heat spreader, or IHS. This is simply a piece of metal that takes heat from the die and transfers it to your cooler. It also serves to protect the die. The third bit is between the two - thermal paste. We all put thermal paste on coolers when we install them, and the inside of your CPU is no different. Intel puts thermal paste BETWEEN the die and the IHS to help with heat transfer.
CPU die --> thermal paste --> IHS --> cooler.
Sadly, intel have moved to using cheap and nasty thermal paste inside of their CPUs. This paste is thermally inefficient. It is bad at its job, but saves intel £££.
Delidding is the process of cleaning out this rubbish thermal paste and replacing it with higher quality stuff, the idea being that this will IMPROVE heat transfer from CPU die to IHS, and lower the working temperatures of the CPU.
Why? Good question. If you leave your computer on 'Auto', never venturing into the scary world of the BIOS, you do NOT need to do this to your CPU. It is NOT without risk, and a CPU left on default settings out of the box will (in most cases*) run at perfectly acceptable temperatures.
If however, like me, you are addicted to overclocking and want to see your CPU running at higher speeds with lower temperatures, then delidding starts to offer some serious benefits. Another side note, most CPUs do NOT need to be overclocked. The benefits are minimal in most cases. This is something to do FOR FUN, if it floats your boat. There is little reason to do any of this stuff if it does not interest you.
*The 4770K (the first CPU I delidded many years ago) was notorious for running hot. My copy of this CPU would thermal throttle (reduce its working speed to protect against damage) right out of the box with NO increase in speed or voltage (i.e. NOT overclocked). This is a rare case, as most CPUs will quite happily run at normal settings without throttling (the i9 in the new Macbook Pro being another exception, but that's a different conversation).
Now time for a disclaimer. Delidding throws your warranty right out of the window, and CAN DESTROY your CPU. Do NOT attempt this after reading just this story. If you are interested, do some more research.
With that out of the way, let me talk you through the story of my delid, with pictures :D
My new CPU, the 8086K (simply a limited anniversary run of the 8700K) arrived about a week ago. Like any real nerd, I went right into the BIOS to see what could be done. These chips come from the factory with a base clock of 4.0Ghz, and a turbo of 4.3Ghz on all cores. I'm not going to go into the numbers too much, as this is about delidding and not overclocking, but suffice to say higher numbers are 'better'.
To run at 4.3Ghz, the CPU required 1.15V. Temperatures were more than acceptable, well below the 90+ degrees 'danger zone' (where the CPU will start to slow itself down to reduce temperatures and protect itself).
By increasing the voltage delivery to the CPU, I had it running at 5.0Ghz on all cores, with a voltage of 1.3. This was all well and good, until I fired up prime95 (a stability tester that puts a 100% load on the CPU - i.e. produces the most heat possible). The CPU hit 99 degrees within 10 minutes, throttling down to 4Ghz to lower temps.
I'll note here that my CPU was being cooled with a Corsair all-in-one liquid cooler, the H100i Pro. This is up there with the best cooling you can get for your CPU without building your own watercooling loop (which is considerably more expensive). The cooler is mounted as an exhaust in my case, which will add 5-10 degrees to things, but I was not willing to change this for various reasons (many of them aesthetic).
Now, I didn't buy a 'K' series processor to leave it on default clocks. I want that 5Ghz! I was already cooling as best as I could (see the paragraph above), and the next step for me was looking at another delid. This is the second time I have done this (my old 4770K being the first). On to the pictures!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4601[/ATTACH]
The above shows the CPU, cleaned, sitting in its socket in the motherboard. The square peice of metal you are looking at is the IHS. This is what we want to remove with delidding. Normally, this is what the CPU cooler is attached to.
Now, 5 years ago when I did this with the 4770K, I clamped the CPU in a vice and hit it with a hammer to remove the IHS. No, seriously. These days, as more and more people / nerds have resorted to taking these drastic measures to improve thermal transfer within the CPU there are now specific tools for the job. I used the Der8auer Delid Mate 2 (http://der8auer.com/delid-die-mate/), a device that essentially replaces the vice and hammer.
The CPU comes out of the motherboard, and sits in the device like so -
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4602[/ATTACH]
The vice part of the delidder is attached, and turned with the allen key -
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4603[/ATTACH]
As you turn the key, pressure is applied to only the IHS, with the rest of the CPU being held still. Eventually enough pressure is applied and 'pop', the glue holding the IHS to the PCB is broken. The IHS is now loose from the CPU. The 2 picture below shows the IHS separate from the CPU, and what we find underneath it!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4604[/ATTACH]
The black gunk is the glue that we just ripped apart using the delidding tool. The grey stuff is Intel's awful thermal paste. The left shows the PCB and (under the paste) the CPU die. CPU dies are delicate, and can be ruined if damaged. This is the bit you have to be gentle with. After a good clean with 99.9% isopropyl alcohol*, we are left with a clean IHS and a clean CPU die -
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4605[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4606[/ATTACH]
*I used 99.9% isopropyl alcohol to clean the CPU die and IHS, as this evaporates within a few seconds and does not leave behind any electrically conductive waste or other residue. It is simply the only thing to clean sensitive electronics with.
Next, we need to replace Intel's rubbish thermal paste with some better stuff. Most people who delid their CPUs use a liquid metal based paste. This has the advantage of being VERY good at transferring heat. It has the disadvantage of being electrically conductive. If this stuff gets on your motherboard, it WILL cause electrical short circuits and potentially kill your PC. For this reason, I ONLY use it between CPU die and IHS. I do not put this stuff anywhere else in my build.
This picture shows a blob of liquid metal before spreading. You don't need much, it goes a long way -
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4608[/ATTACH]
Using a cotton bud, the liquid metal is spread over the die until it looks something like this -
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4611[/ATTACH]
With that done, it's time to reattach the IHS to the CPU. Hopefully, the liquid metal will prove much more efficient at transferring heat from die to IHS than Intel's thermal paste!
To reattach the IHS, I used heat resistant thermal silicon. You don't actually have to attach the IHS at all, the pressure from the CPU cooler (the H100i in my case) will keep it in place. However, reattaching it ensures that no liquid metal will 'leak' from the CPU and onto the motherboard. As I explained above, this would be bad! That said, I run my 4770K without reattaching the IHS for 5 years, and it is still alive and kicking.
I didn't get a picture of this with the 8086K, but the one below shows the 4770K with the silicon in place, ready to have the IHS reattached (I redid the job on the 4770K at the same time, because why not?!). The process was identical for the 8086K.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4609[/ATTACH]
With the silicon in place, the IHS is placed on top (with the help of the tool's spacing device, you know it is going on in the right place). This is then clamped and left for 30 minutes to dry -
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4610[/ATTACH]
With the CPU resealed, it goes back in the motherboard and we apply NORMAL thermal paste (i.e. NOT liquid metal) to the top of the IHS. The corsair H100i is reattached, and the job is complete!
Results!
First of all, at default speeds and voltages. Well, no significant difference. I played a few hours of Overwatch, and the CPU sat at around 50-55 degrees throughout. This is only about 5 degrees cooler than before, showing that there is NO need to do this if you plan on leaving your PC at default settings.
What about that 5Ghz run? Before, the CPU hit 99 degrees and slowed itself down. Now, after the delid, I let it run prime95 for half an hour (before I was dragged off to the gym), and the highest temperature was 81 degrees.
That is at LEAST an 18 degree improvement! I don't know exactly how hot the CPU would have got to before, as it stopped itself from going above 99 degrees with throttling. I can now run the CPU at 5Ghz, and temperatures remain out of that 'danger zone'. I even tried a 5.2Ghz run with 1.35V, which was also below 90 degrees (85 max), although that will require a bit more testing to confirm stability.
So there you have it. Lower temperatures and higher clock speeds with no throttling. I'll now spend the next few days tinkering with the CPU to see how fast I can get it, just for the fun of it. Congrats if you read all of that, hope it was interesting! Remember, stuff like this can destroy your CPU if you mess it up. It is only something to do if you are willing to accept those risks. No one NEEDS to do this, but for us Overclocking addicts it can be a lot of fun!
Worth doing with a 6700k?
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If you have to ask, the answer is probably no.
As I said above, it is only 'worth' doing if you are interested in Overclocking and the idea of taking apart your CPU appeals to you. If not, and your PC is running on default settings, it's almost certainly an unnecessary risk.
I did this because I wanted to, because I enjoy the process. With any Intel CPU after the 4000 series, you don't NEED to do it, and even then.. if you've one of those you've likely been getting by without it just fine for 5 years by now!
Really nice write-up, Ben.
Not going anywhere near it :D
Thanks OB. Very wise :D !
Isn't this the 2nd time you done this now I am sure you and TL were discussed it before? So your a old hand at it now.
Again nice write up
Yeah, when we did it before it was with a (much more intimidating) vice and hammer. With this new bit of kit, it's not half as bad. Quite enjoyable, if this is your thing!
de-lidding your die, brought to a Thursday night at a Lan near you....
nice post BTW
I can dig out a load of old CPU's from work if you wanted to do some demo's
Quote from: sulky_uk;433845de-lidding your die, brought to a Thursday night at a Lan near you....
nice post BTW
I believe pesteh and I are doing his 8700K this October :yahoo: No need for the dud demos, we go right to the real thing! :D
Quote from: Chaosphere;433847I believe pesteh and I are doing his 8700K this October :yahoo: No need for the dud demos, we go right to the real thing! :D
Best leaved that for the end of the LAN :D
Great post and brilliant result.
As an update to this, I decided to take the lid off again, remove the silicon glue, and re-do it WITHOUT gluing the IHS back onto the CPU board. I'd read that the glue can increase temperatures, as those few mm lift the IHS from the CPU die, preventing optimal contact and thus heat transfer.
After removing the glue (it was a royal pain in the backside to scrape off), temperatures are now a whopping 15-20 degrees lower than before.
I'm currently sitting at 5.1Ghz with a voltage of 1.32, getting temps of 50-55 degrees during prime95 torture testing. This brings it to about 30-40 degrees cooler than before both delids. These are huge numbers, and I hope illustrate why overclockers delid their CPUs!
I didnt re-seal mine after delid and just dropped the IHS into the socket and used the heatsink so the IHS would definately maker contact with the Die. This does mean you will need to be sparing with the liquid metal as it may slide a little when you secure down. I decided not to use nailvarnish to coat around the die but i have friends where this has saved thew CPU from shorting and would recomend to those who are looking to delid.
Temps are 65-70 degrees with 8700k at 5GHz with a tiny air cooler in a 14 litre case. Delid took 20+ degrees of my of temps under syntheic workload but better than this I have a slient PC now when gaming (well you can still hear the mechanical HDD) but no noise form CPU and GPU playing overwatch etc.
The liquid metal will degrade over time. I check mine each 3 months and reapply if needed but it will dry out eventually and will slowly stain the IHS. Risky but worth it!
I have offered to do the same at the LAN for a few. WIll see if ia remember to bring the di-mate and liquid metal.
Nail varnish was necessary on the 4770K as there are capacitors / transistors on the PCB, right next to the die. There is no need on the 8700, as the PCB is bare on that side. Easy!
Like you said, I was fairly light handed with the metal, so am not too concerned about leaks. I didn't seal my 4770K, left it for 4+ years like that, and didn't see have any problems. When I cracked it open recently, the metal hadn't really moved. It had stained the IHS, but otherwise it looked exactly like when I put it in there.
Temps hadn't changed either, so I'm not sure I buy the whole need to re-do it every few months - although you're certainly not the only one to say that, it just doesn't match up with what I saw with that chip.
Fun stuff! I'm bringing the delidder and liquid metal to the LAN for pesteh. :yahoo:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4652[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4653[/ATTACH]
If you were wondering if it would be worth putting liquid metal on a 1080Ti... No. No it is not. This is an Asus Strix card that already has a chunky cooler and good air flow, thermals were good to begin with. Temps dropped maybe 5 degrees under load, at best, with this.
I suspect the limiting factor here is the temperature around the VRMs, rather than the die itself. Shame as there is little one can do to cool the VRMs here, short of removing the cooler altogether and putting the whole thing under H2O (which my case does not have room for).
Blatent hijack
Can anyone please tell me how I see what processor I can upgrade my PC with?
My machine is quite old now so I think a new processor and card is in order. Previously I've just dumped the machine and bought a new one but I'm thinking it would be more sensible to upgrade the processor and graphics card.
This is the mobo ASUS® P6X58D-E: DDR3, USB 3.0, SATA 6.0GB/s, 3-Way SLI
The machine is a good 8years old.
This is the rest of the spec
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[TR]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]COOLERMASTER CM690 MKII ADVANCED CASE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]Overclocked CPU[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]OverClocked Intel® Coreâ,,¢i7 Quad Core Processor i7-950 (3.06GHz @ max 3.8GHz)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]OC Settings[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]Show/Hide[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]Motherboard[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]ASUS® P6X58D-E: DDR3, USB 3.0, SATA 6.0GB/s, 3-Way SLI[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]Memory (RAM)[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]16GB KINGSTON HYPER-X T1 TRI-DDR3 2000MHz, X.M.P (3 x 2GB KIT)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]Graphics Card[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]Gtx 670
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]2nd Graphics Card[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]NONE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]3rd Graphics Card[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]NONE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]1st Hard Disk[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]500GB SSD
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]2nd Hard Disk[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]1TB WD CAVIAR BLACK WD1002FAEX, SATA 6 Gb/s, 64MB CACHE (7200rpm)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]RAID[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]NONE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]DVD/BLU-RAY Drive[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]24x DUAL LAYER DVD WRITER ±R/±RW/RAM[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]2nd DVD/BLU-RAY Drive[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]NONE[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]Memory Card Reader[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]INTERNAL 52 IN 1 CARD READER (XD, MS, CF, SD, etc) + 1 x USB 2.0 PORT[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]Power Supply[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]CORSAIR 750W PSU (TX750) 80+ ULTRA QUIET (£88)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]Processor Cooling[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]TITAN FENRIR EVO EXTREME HEATPIPE CPU COOLER (£39)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]Thermal Paste[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]ARCTIC COOLING MX-3 HIGH THERMAL CONDUCTIVITY COMPOUND (£9)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]Sound Card[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]ONBOARD 8 CHANNEL (7.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]Wireless/Wired Networking[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]ONBOARD 10/100/1000 GIGABIT LAN PORT[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]USB Options[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]6 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL (MIN 2 FRONT PORTS) AS STANDARD[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD=class: tdb w35 tr]4G Module[/TD]
[TD=class: wysiwyg_cms_table tl]NONE, I WILL BE USING BROADBAND[/TD]
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Or do I really need to scrap?
I'm afraid it is destined for the scrapyard Pen, there really isn't a reasonable upgrade path from that CPU socket.
Happy to help advise / spec out a build if you give me a budget.
You could at least keep the power supply, case, and hard drive if desired. However an 8 your old power supply is probably worth replacing, and you should look to at least adding a larger SSD for the main drive in the next PC.
Aye what I thought. I was going to get a new one a couple of years ago but bought the Surface Pro.
Ah well. Sounds good but not this month as I've just bought a new watch.
Thanks, I'll have a thunk and post up a spec in due course for comments.
Sounds good.
I don't know how I missed this, very nice work Ben.
One issue. Cotton bud to spread thermal paste? Doesn't every guide to installing a CPU say do not use fibrous materials as they could contaminate the paste? One particle or fiber in the paste can add several degrees of heat to the die.
Just a thin line of arctic silver V and let the pressure from bringing the two parts together I find to have been the most effective. I tested spreading vs the lay on method and I reduced temp by 4 degrees between the 2. My 4790K runs at 4.5GHz up from 3.2 at 35 degrees with an H100.
I seriously recommend redoing the paste but without spreading it with cotton, use a fiber cloth or something else. https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Thermal-Paste-Application-Techniques-170/ This is teh daddy of articles on paste.
Liquid metal doesn't spread like conventional paste, it has to be almost 'painted' on to the die. I will show you at the LAN with Pesteh's CPU.
As for what to do it with, the cotton buds that come with the liquid metal are very tightly wound, they don't really leave any noticeable waste behind. I am in fact trying to get some more, as the ones I have are now well used. You can't leave this to spread by pressure, it simply doesn't work.
As for spreading conventional paste, many a YouTube video has shown that the only wrong way is to use too little. Every other application will result in more or less identical temps. Small dot, blob, line, X... whatever floats your boat.
https://youtu.be/EUWVVTY63hc
I was talking to overclockers at egx about delidding and u can buy a kit from them now.
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Yes, the delidding tool I used (see my first post in this thread) was purchased from OcUK. It was designed / brought to market by a German Overclocker. There are a few alternatives, all do the same thing. Really just a hand held vice shaped to fit the 1151 Intel CPUs.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4656[/ATTACH]
While we're at it, this is my laptop... Also 'liquid metalled'...
I really don't recommend this one, the chances of the metal running onto something it shouldn't are perhaps higher than with a fairly stationary desktop. It's conductive, on course, and could easily kill the PC if it gets on the motherboard. Much higher risk than the comparatively simple CPU delid...
Still, the laptop is still alive...for now :D fun fun!
Thread Revival!!!
Due to the hot weather recently I decided to delid my ageing 7700K. On the hottest day last week running stress tests I was hitting 84-86c. After adding liquid metal this has dropped to 64-67c
Stress testing temps down -20c
Gaming temps down -10c
Water temp whilst gaming is down -2c
Year mike my 6700k I had to drop down the overclock from 4.6 to 4.2 cause of heat still hitting 80c even with cooling from my h100i v2 cooler so might ask chaos if he can de lid it at the lan.
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Whilst it is being revived, I'll add that the easy way to protect against shorting out your cpu is simply to paint some nail varnish over the surface contacts. Works like a charm.
Quote from: Chaosphere;433915Nail varnish was necessary on the 4770K as there are capacitors / transistors on the PCB, right next to the die. There is no need on the 8700, as the PCB is bare on that side. Easy!
Just to clarify what TL said as I think some incorrect terminology was used that has the potential to confuse... nail varnish must only ever be placed on the CPU next to the die itself, if there are small components found there (many CPUs now have nothing there). This is the side that does
not contact with the motherboard socket.
If you look at my pictures from my 1080Ti die, you can see lots of small components surrounding the die (the bit painted with liquid metal) that I coated with varnish due to their close proximity to the metal. This is a good example of when to bring out your nail varnish :flirty:.
The CPU
contacts however are the other side, that connect to the motherboard socket pins, so caution with that terminology. You absolutely must
not put anything on the CPU contacts, as this will interfere with the socket communicating with the CPU and can render the CPU useless unless you can clean away whatever is there. Varnish on the contacts will stop the CPU working, metal on the contacts has the potential to kill the CPU.
As I said in my first post please make sure you know exactly what you're doing before you attempt. Mike did, and did a good job as a result. Well played sir.
U think it's worth it upgrading from h100iv2 to h100i platinum?
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sneaky see here
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/corsair-h100i-rgb-platinum-cooler,5905-2.html
also i have an 8700k running at 4.7 on the same cooler as you and never breach 73 under full load, av 30 on idle.
Have you cleaned your radiator, checked that the air flow is good? mine also vents at the top of the case, so hot air from the gpu is going through the fans (at the top), then the rad also. if it is on the front, try having the fans suckling into the case and the rad mounted on the inside of the fans ie right on the extreme front (so cold air sucked through)
Also if using corsair fans try using the Al suite to put your fans to max speed when playing games and make sure your pump is running (as recommended by corsair) at max chat, ie for me 4000rpm. hopefully that will save you buying stuff
3x140 fans at the front pulling air in cooler at the top and at the back pushing air out,I did have the voltage to high last time tho,so might try and overclock but try and keep volts as low as possible,but will get chaos to delidd should reduce heat by 20%
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