Hi All, I'm looking for some detialed advice on the process and choices that have to be made when selecting a new kitchen.
My wife and I are buying a new build and in advance we have chosen a Kitchen company to work with. We've never done this before and I think the guy in the showroom assumes we have some sort of knowledge of the process, he's Dutch as you would expect in the Netherlands and he expects straight direct communication.
We are aware that a new kitchen needs a few fundamental elements to be determined:
1) Layout and size
2) White goods (or black it seems these days): Hob, Cooker, Freezer, Fridge, Dishwasher - bascially anything big enough to need to be integated into the build
3) Flooring
4) Heating (radiators, underfloor etc.)
5) This is the big confusing part: the "Kitchen" components over and above 1-4.
Focusing on 5). At our first meeting, the guy shows us around, of course the showroom examples are nicely designed, have had professional interior decors involved to craft these. If we just said "we want that one" (which is what he probably wants all customers to say but they never do) then it would be simple.
In our 4.62m x 2.850m space we have very few options. We settle on a parallel setup, with all the objects lining the two longer walls. Along the short walls, one is outward looking with 2 near-celing to floor windows (1st Floor so ignore the garden in the pitcure, we cannot walk out these unless we want to get hurt) excluding the possibility of using that wall for worktops. The other wall leads to the lounge and is open plan.
Here you go:
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After getting our capacity and position requirements, he sends us off to look at worktops and cupboard doors. He states they have 3 ranges starting at budget, to mid, to high quality. Or VW, Audi and Merc as he describes them.
We pick a few things out, and decide for starters, a door, which ends up being made by Pronorm, a German company with a decent rep. He says they are in the high/ Merc range.
In the heat of the moment, now having had a few days to think. We don't actually know what you get when you buy the line item 5), the kitchen units for this Merc level quality.
So my questions to anyone who has designed their own kitchen with a supplier:
"What are the factors one must consider when deciding upon a Kitchen brand"?
"What are optional things to consider?"
"What am I actually paying all that money for?" (the cupboards, drawers and fittings are 2/3 of the total cost)
I sort of felt like we turned up and the kitchen sales guy/ designer just said look around the zoo and when you're done go have a play around in the ball crawl, like we're kids who wouldn't understand the finer details.
Meanwhile, he went off and drew out the basic stuff, no final colours but the layout as we requested it.
Any advice or feedback welcome.
I am not a kitchen expert, but based on my experience as a consumer here's my 2 cents:
Black looks great but is a total bugger to keep clean - it shows *everything* and is a long-term cleaning nightmare. I'd strongly recommend a different colour!
I retrofitted wet UFH in our kitchen. Best decision ever and v.highly recommended. Make sure you don't UFH under what will be cupboards and whitegoods space, only UFH what will be the free floor area as things don't like being stored in cupboards that run at 25 degrees centigrade and any fresh food goes off. Give the UFH at least 6 inches margin to the cupboards to allow them to remain cool internally.
If you of UFH then go stone/tile/porcelain etc for the floor. It's super easy to clean spillages/dirt and the UFH is a perfect fit for that type of hard flooring.
Re brand - it's never been a big thing for us, but consider 5 years down the road and you or one of your younger family visitors dents a door. Can you find a replacement from that company, are they still going to be about. Sometimes going with a bigger more established door manufacturer helps (I have a dented cabinet door from a smaller local supplier that I now cannot replace until I upgrade the whole kitchen again as they went out of business, so have direct experience of this!).
In terms of what you pay for: the carcasses are pretty much the same cost throughout (but some companies charge more for the carcass as you go up the VW>Audi>Merc scale). It's the doors that are different. You can also source a cheaper carcass elsewhere and just buy the expensive doors that you like if you do not get a good deal on the carcass from your door supplier. Fittings are pretty much universal, so it is rarely a problem to mix and match. It is easier though to have one company responsible for the whole install.
Ask about the quality of the cabinet door surface. Cheaper doors are often covered in a very thin layer of your chosen coloured plastic, whereas in my experience a more expensive door often gets you get a more substantial surface covering which is more resilient and less prone to chips etc.
Optionals:
- soft close hinges and buffers/stoppers on everything.
-make sure the silent rails are sufficient quality - this is rarely a problem but I have seen a friend get stiffed on these once - his was a wider deeper drawer like shown on your hob side, he used it for plates/dishes etc and fairly quickly started to sag when fully extended and eventually one day he shut the drawer and it hit the draw below and chipped off the lower drawer's surface cover along a two foot area. We have a similar drawer which we also fully load with plates/bowls, but our rails are better quality and have never sagged.
- avoid going for anything fancy (internal spiral corner, concertina door, full-length pull-out cupboard etc). These things are a design weakness and will always be the first thing to flex, break and fail.
Subjective comment:
I'd think about the full height cabinet on the sink side. There's no door handle on the lower cabinet, so it looks like the lower and mid doors are connected (usually with two short metal plates) and open as one - and that's exactly the type of door that will weaken/break over long use. Heavy door, strong metal plate, screwed into weak material (usually an mdf or a chipboard type of product) with short screws - the screws eventually get ripped out of the doors as they are handling the full force of both doors when opened/closed. Personally I would rather extend the work surface and the overhead cabinets to make it look symmetrical to the hob side - and as your work surfaces are broken up into 4 smaller areas, you might welcome the extra worksurface area! If the full height is actually a hiding place for your fridge/freezer then ignore this comment!
That's my kitchen experience, all of it subjective and amateur, but I hope it helps you somewhat!
Thanks for the time you put into that TL. Indeed the full height left of the sink is for a high fridge. It'll be one door pulling the fridge open.
For the parts that are fancy and unusual, good advice, we were thinking of having one cupboard on the lower side replaced by two vertical pull out drawers so bottles of oil, juice, spices etc. could be stored upright.
Our biggest challenge is although practical, it feels a little industrial right now. Then again replace a cupboard for a shelf or 2 and in a few years we're looking at plants on the shelves thinking I could have done with that extra storage space.
There's no UFH in the kitchen right now. We were thinking of asking about it, but never even thought to consider food getting heated.
Thanks again.
TL has pretty much nailed it ands here's a couple of extra thoughts
What worktop are going with? Personally we go with laminate as opposed to a solid surface like corian or a natural material like quartz, granite or real wood. They're (a lot) cheaper but more durable and easier to clean. (this pic is of ours)
Not sure why the oven isn't centred under the stove. That tends to be the way it's done over here. Looks a little off centred. It would also marry up with the sink opposite.
Are you having an integrated bin? I suspect not given the fact you have space at the end of the run for a freestanding bin and probably want to maximise storage but if so make sure it's a decent size.
Soft-closers for sure.
Extraction? If you have an open plan kitchen you haven't included and extraction or venting to remove smells.
We've always bought mid-range kitchens.
Colour - Avoid strong colours and I'd avoid gloss. All have a propensity to go out of style. A good subtle pastel colour will always be acceptable.
Here's our kitchen. Mid-range, standard laminate worktops, pastel colour soft close on everything.
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warning: brain dump incoming...may contain craziness :flirty:
I'd second the UFH and tiles for the floor, plus soft-close and avoiding gloss. Personally I'd go for strong colours if that's your thing (it is in our house - much to the architects terror XD). We have the UFH with timber floor - it's (imo) great to walk on and look at but you will always be that little bit more worried about it so tiles are safer/easier. I'd spend money on the bits that you see all the time (the doors and the work surface) and the bits that make it function (hinges, rails, soft-close, etc). Our kitchen is effectively a "U" shape and the corners are a frustrating waste of space: don't think you have any to worry about though! :)
Check wrt the cooker extractor fan - are there any limitations on where it can go in the space? Ours is in the middle of the cupboards but it cannot vent upwards so it takes out 20cm from the cupboard depth (not an issue for us as they still take pans fine and we expected it from the start) to the side wall.
Is there anything you dislike about your kitchen now (or generally kitchens you use) or that you wish you had (second fridge for beer & wine, or a second sink for when two of you are fighting for space in there, or a bigger space for [...] or a built-in [...]). What "stuff" do you leave out in the kitchen and is there space (and sockets...) - kettle, toaster, coffee machines, etc - it's nice to not have to swap plugs.
NB on work surfaces... Find a finish you like the look of but beware of how easy materials are to stain/damage! Zinc stains and looks messy very fast. SSteel stays shiny but shows up everything. Wood is nice but I never really feel like it's clean. Marble looks nice but you can scratch, chip and stain it easily. Corian sounds good but there's a lot of caveats about stains and the seamlessness didn't seem to stretch to the sink part so somewhat negated the idea. Simplest surface I have had was black "granite" (possibly reconstituted etc) although the joins were annoying. We have something called "Fenix" for the worktops (a "nanotech" laminate or something) and marble for the sink & surrounds (which after several years is chipped, stained, scratched, etc).
Do you know how you want to use the end of the space against those 1st floor windows? Is there a view? Is there a rail you will hang a planter over? If you left a bit more room (perhaps dropped the last 600 unit against the double-window) you lose some kitchen storage space but you might have space for a chair or two with a small coffee table (or maybe stools with a narrow bar-top/floating-shelf). Otherwise it will probably be storage visible to the world (bins, vegetable-stand-thing, hoover, etc). Whenever we are cooking for guests we all seem to end up in/around the kitchen area.
Down-lighting under the wall units is nice to see what you're doing - make sure you have enough power outlets for stuff!
One thing we wanted for our kitchen (but couldn't make the space work) was a standing-height oven. You could mirror the full-height fridge unit on the other side of the room to hold the oven or just make it a full-height larder/cupboard/storage.
p.s. on the strong colours point: you can use "accents" in areas that are easy to make plan again if you do wan the estate agency look, like the splashback or one or two doors or the wall paint/tiles :rolleyes:
Quote from: Penfold;448294Not sure why the oven isn't centred under the stove. That tends to be the way it's done over here. Looks a little off centred. It would also marry up with the sink opposite.
Are you having an integrated bin?
Extraction? If you have an open plan kitchen you haven't included and extraction or venting to remove smells.
Colour - Avoid strong colours and I'd avoid gloss. All have a propensity to go out of style. A good subtle pastel colour will always be acceptable.
Here's our kitchen. Mid-range, standard laminate worktops, pastel colour soft close on everything.
Great advice. So the extracter situation. We are opting for a Bora Induction with downward extraction so we dn't have to place a hood above the hob. This means there is not enough space for a full size oven underneath because the venting pipes of the Bora. We are looking at the possibility of linking the extraction piping into the ventalation of the house, as it has geothermal heat exchange with ingress and egress vents in every room.
No integrated bin, they're never large enough. Looking at a high bin and and high recycle stack in the spaces at the end of the rows.
Thanks for highlighting the worktop type, we were thinking composite stone. But your top looks so good I think we'll consider laminate.
Funnily enough, our colouring has evolved into pretty much what yours are. My wife will like to comapre her ideas with these picture.
Thanks!
Quote from: suicidal_monkey;448295warning: brain dump incoming...may contain craziness :flirty:
I'd second the UFH and tiles for the floor, plus soft-close and avoiding gloss. Personally I'd go for strong colours if that's your thing (it is in our house - much to the architects terror XD). We have the UFH with timber floor - it's (imo) great to walk on and look at but you will always be that little bit more worried about it so tiles are safer/easier. I'd spend money on the bits that you see all the time (the doors and the work surface) and the bits that make it function (hinges, rails, soft-close, etc). Our kitchen is effectively a "U" shape and the corners are a frustrating waste of space: don't think you have any to worry about though! :)
Check wrt the cooker extractor fan - are there any limitations on where it can go in the space? Ours is in the middle of the cupboards but it cannot vent upwards so it takes out 20cm from the cupboard depth (not an issue for us as they still take pans fine and we expected it from the start) to the side wall.
Is there anything you dislike about your kitchen now (or generally kitchens you use) or that you wish you had (second fridge for beer & wine, or a second sink for when two of you are fighting for space in there, or a bigger space for [...] or a built-in [...]). What "stuff" do you leave out in the kitchen and is there space (and sockets...) - kettle, toaster, coffee machines, etc - it's nice to not have to swap plugs.
NB on work surfaces... Find a finish you like the look of but beware of how easy materials are to stain/damage! Zinc stains and looks messy very fast. SSteel stays shiny but shows up everything. Wood is nice but I never really feel like it's clean. Marble looks nice but you can scratch, chip and stain it easily. Corian sounds good but there's a lot of caveats about stains and the seamlessness didn't seem to stretch to the sink part so somewhat negated the idea. Simplest surface I have had was black "granite" (possibly reconstituted etc) although the joins were annoying. We have something called "Fenix" for the worktops (a "nanotech" laminate or something) and marble for the sink & surrounds (which after several years is chipped, stained, scratched, etc).
Do you know how you want to use the end of the space against those 1st floor windows? Is there a view? Is there a rail you will hang a planter over? If you left a bit more room (perhaps dropped the last 600 unit against the double-window) you lose some kitchen storage space but you might have space for a chair or two with a small coffee table (or maybe stools with a narrow bar-top/floating-shelf). Otherwise it will probably be storage visible to the world (bins, vegetable-stand-thing, hoover, etc). Whenever we are cooking for guests we all seem to end up in/around the kitchen area.
Down-lighting under the wall units is nice to see what you're doing - make sure you have enough power outlets for stuff!
One thing we wanted for our kitchen (but couldn't make the space work) was a standing-height oven. You could mirror the full-height fridge unit on the other side of the room to hold the oven or just make it a full-height larder/cupboard/storage.
p.s. on the strong colours point: you can use "accents" in areas that are easy to make plan again if you do wan the estate agency look, like the splashback or one or two doors or the wall paint/tiles :rolleyes:
Brain dump successfully received, processing.......... Thanks
Bora Induction with downward extraction - I was advised with my layout not to go with downward extraction if the pipe needs to make more than one 90 Deg bend to get to the outside vent. The more bends the less effective the extraction. Not to mention the clean up when the fish stock boils over and runs down the hole :P
Im on day 10 of ripping out the old kitchen - Many Many thanks to the previous owners who tiled the walls then removed the tiles. Put on woodchip wallpaper to hide the tile removal damage and then painted it every year until it looked like porridge. To finish another layer of wallpaper and paint to hide said porridge.
hahah Jas.
Albert, you'll also need some sort of splashback for the stove and sink.
​My first recommendation would be to get a free home design CAD program like SweetHome 3D and play with layouts etc yourself, don't worry about the colours and feel / fit / finish just fundamentally work out what you want where.
Also think about how you and your other co-habitants use a kitchen, my wife and I often are in there together doing prep / cook etc alongside each other. So weirdly for us when we had a "long thin kitchen" it actually worked better for us to have it all in a line on one wall rather than do it as the "golden triangle" of sink, fridge and hobs/oven.
I have always fitted my own kitchens as I am very particular / fussy / OCD about it all and don't trust most company fitters not to just bodge the job then hide it :) and for what fitters charge these days, it is generally cheaper to take a few days off work and do it myself.
Don't worry about future proofing your colour scheme too much, most DIY places sell "One Coat cupboard paint" these days, so you can refresh your kitchen in an afternoon a few years down the line. It is more important to have decent solid carcasses - as worst case doors can always be replaced in future.
I'll try and dig out the pictures of the last kitchen I did, where I basically followed the above process then went to https://www.diy-kitchens.com/ and ordered to my design, ended up with the whole lot including my wife's "dream" range cooker done and dusted for £6k
Quote from: JonnyAppleSeed;448302Bora Induction with downward extraction - I was advised with my layout not to go with downward extraction if the pipe needs to make more than one 90 Deg bend to get to the outside vent. The more bends the less effective the extraction. Not to mention the clean up when the fish stock boils over and runs down the hole :P
Unfortunately we cannot have an external vent for the cooker, so getting it to a wall and bends etc. are not an issue. It has to be recirculation due to building restrictions and environmenal rules here in NL. But it is a goood point.
The boiling over thing should be ok with this one because every part of it is removable and dishwasher safe. Then of course we need to buy carbon filters and replace them every 600 hours of use.
Quote from: A Twig;448317​My first recommendation would be to get a free home design CAD program like SweetHome 3D and play with layouts etc yourself, don't worry about the colours and feel / fit / finish just fundamentally work out what you want where.
Also think about how you and your other co-habitants use a kitchen, my wife and I often are in there together doing prep / cook etc alongside each other. So weirdly for us when we had a "long thin kitchen" it actually worked better for us to have it all in a line on one wall rather than do it as the "golden triangle" of sink, fridge and hobs/oven.
I have always fitted my own kitchens as I am very particular / fussy / OCD about it all and don't trust most company fitters not to just bodge the job then hide it :) and for what fitters charge these days, it is generally cheaper to take a few days off work and do it myself.
Don't worry about future proofing your colour scheme too much, most DIY places sell "One Coat cupboard paint" these days, so you can refresh your kitchen in an afternoon a few years down the line. It is more important to have decent solid carcasses - as worst case doors can always be replaced in future.
I'll try and dig out the pictures of the last kitchen I did, where I basically followed the above process then went to https://www.diy-kitchens.com/ and ordered to my design, ended up with the whole lot including my wife's "dream" range cooker done and dusted for £6k
Love the real life experience thing there, thanks. We are the same, have enough funtional space to work without getting in eachothers way. I'm no tradesman, so I'll pay for it to be done.
No worries, I think very few people are as picky as me! Hope it all goes well, as promised, couple of pics of my last one (more for me to show off rather than anything else :) )
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D6mqcfpQ7V5T-58dc6OE2dhedckvdqEh/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eZbPkq6odwI4M7XLooXxrK9D-u7xz0PQ/view?usp=sharing
Missing from those pictures is our mobile kitchen island, a bit butchers block on wheels, which we used as extra worktop wherever we needed or just had it in the middle for friends to drink at while we cooked