.......I'm reet fecked off with tonight.
On de_dust2, CTs can cut through the double doors to mincer.
BUT
They should not cut through the double doors to effect a quick side swipe at the Ts going short A.
We had a ferking great debate about whether or nto the CTs should even go through double doors at all and tonight I often met FOUR people sitting there scoped on the short A balcony ffs. That makes me fecking mad.
By all means use double doors, but not as a duck shoot ffs. If you use the doors then GO TO B MINCER. Sitting where you can see short A is NOT on imo.
Debate.
TL.
The times I have declared 'mincer' and gone and tucked myself in the archway is innumerable. I sit and wait and report if I see Ts coming short A/middle. This has never been an issue.(I have NEVER been taken to task over it even by you TL) As I understand it, CTs cannot use the double doors as a shortcut to A, i.e. go up the ramp, unless the bomb has been planted or the bomb is down.
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As far as i am concerned this has always been done on Dust2 so why is it being brought up now?
If short A has been called then people from B always go through the mincer and up ramp... if they go through CT spawn they havnt got a chance.
What i dont agree with is CT's rushing from spawn to and up the ramp that is not defending any bombsite. but staying at the bottom and wathcing for t's from the mincer has been done since i've been coming on MH and is a tactic.....
Also why allow CT's to rush down long A? this is not guarding the bombsite just choking a bottle neck.
On this one TL im not sure exactly what was happening but the only thing i would see wrong with this is CT's charging from spawn up the ramp, but we cannot ignore a position like middle as it is actually right next to CT spawn and great advantage to spot the opposition.
hmm i cant really see the problem with sitting in the middle as ct on this map? i was on there and went B most rounds then moved on to middle and watched short A this i have always done..
this has always been the way ondust2
Spotting Short A attacks from the double doors isn't the issue. In fact it's quite easy to do without even going through the double doors.
Double doors to mincer and on to B is also accepted as far as I am aware. Although getting up to B via the normal route still makes it a major effort for T's to get out of the doors effectively.
What I think TL is rightly complaining about is rushing the ramp with no clue whether T's are going short A, or just getting up onto the balcony or top of ramp before the T's have even appeared.
It seems pretty straight forward. Doing so is a frag hunt, not tactical and not on.
I must admit that I thought it was completely forbidden for CT's to use that root to short A ever, unless the bomb was planted or it's down to 1 on 1. Until tonight I'd have 3 x warned and then kicked whoever did it off the server!
I'd limit CT movement to the flat area below the ramp. This allows movement to B but doesn't start a fire fight on the ramp, which is miles from any bomb site. Of course we don't have defined map boundaries now but I can't see how taking on T's on the ramp can be TCS.
I think Smite has a point too, with CT's being able to wipe out T's as they come through the doors at long A. That's not defending the bomb site either, although I admit to having done it now and again. Not the wiping out bit, I just get shot by the first T through the doors :(
Just to add to my post
When i said i went to B then through to middle i meant i sat in mincer and looked at short A.
iam not sure if this was the problem? But like i said in the other post iv'e always done this if b/mincer is clear.
we was working well as a team that game as 1 of us would stay at the top half of the mincer just in case a late attack on B
If we go by the old PCS rules it was ok to go middle doors to B mincer. It was also ok to stay in lower B mincer to cover middle/short A. What was not ok was to rush up middle ramp straight after spawn.
I think we need to hear from TL before we continue this because we need to understand what it was that happened.
If a CT or some ran straight from spawn through the doors and up the ramp that isnt TCS and not on.
If a CT ran through the double doors and into the mincer and crouched inside the arch to cover short A.... This has always been done and IS TCS as it is covering an access point and informing the team.
If a CT ran from spawn straight up to A around and covered short A but progressed just around the corner to look towards the ramp....this has also always been done (where else would sadako stand ;) sorry sadako)
If a CT ran to B went into mincer and there were no T's but then got a call that there were T's coming short A (and long A) they would come thru the mincer up the ramp to short A......this one may be debateable if incorrectly timed but again has ALWAYS been done.
TL's post mentions sitting at the arch into the mincer or the bottom of the ramp looking up at short A. So I take it that this is what is an issue. T's should be allowed to move to short A without taking fire from the mincer arch. The mincer arch is only to be used by CT's as a route to B. It's OK to take pot shots at T's from the other side of the doors. especially if they don't crouch walk. assuming this to be the point....
The only reason CT's use the doors is
(i) to flank round to B. Not to do so gives the T's a big map advantage getting into B
(ii) to support their team when T's go short A. CT's coming from B and having to run up through the underpass to get to A is a long route and again gives a big map advantage to T's who swarm A and then only have one route to cover.
So that's the issue as I understand it. Assuming I'm right then I have to agree with TL.
CT's move to A via the underpass and cover short and long A. Or they move back from the underpass to B and cover the mincer and also back down to their spawn. Or the rush the double doors and hook straight round into the mincer and on to B. Or they sit their side of the double doors and report on T movement down the ramp or round to short A if they spot them. The odd pot shot through the double doors is OK if the CT has a clear target.
When a short A rush is called by the CT's then they can come down from B or through the mincer and hook round through short A. When the bomb is down CT's can use the whole map.
CT's can't rush to the mincer arch or the area below or on the ramp and camp the area, or engage the T's as they move to short A. There's no bomb site there and they are defending nothing. It's an offensive act and CT's should play defensive on DE maps.
So assuming I get TL's point I have to agree with him.
???
So what you are saying is that CT's should IGNORE a position which is nearest to them to cover and sight the T's coming? Im sorry are we playing a tactical game here because it looks like this is an ideal tactic to me to See, Stop or slow down the enemy and defend BOTH of the bombsites causing them to fall back.
Im sorry Smilo but this has been done for a long time now so why all of a sudden is it an issue?
Also TCS we complained about it before but this is a huge reason why we went from the old system to the what is today TCS.... should we then when we know that the enemy is at long A with the bomb NOT flank? or is this again an area we are not supposed to be.... Im sorry but this one IS being blown out of proportion it has worked for so long now how come it is an issue???
:withstupid:
My 2c coming up ...
I played on the T team last night alongside TL. In the early rounds of the game we tried rushing tactics which mainly, because of some excellent skills by Smite and others, resulted in our early demise. Quite frankly we were getting stuffed.
I think there's a possibility that some of us (me included) over-reacted to that by:
a. Rushing even harder and more carelessly to our deaths
and
b. Looking for a reason for 'how could this be?'
Personally, I have no problem with the CTs sitting in lower B mincer checking Short A. It's the Ts job to check and clear that area before either continuing their gameplan or re-adjusting it. Equally, I have no problem if, having been shot at through the double doors, the CTs decide to engage (note: If I were CT in these circumstance I would much prefer my team to hold off and await a more organised T attack). It's also OK for the CTs to rush the ramp if the bomb carrier, accompanied by the vast majority of the T team, is spotted rushing short A. Again, I'd expect the Ts to cover their arses if they know they've been spotted.
My opinion is that last night's problems were caused by us Ts trying to rush too hard and too often, by giving away our position with ill use of gunfire and grens and throwing all the toys outta the pram when it all went horribly wrong. :lol:
When we eventually took the time to discuss our tactics, slow down the plays, throw decoys etc etc, it all started to gel and I believe we won the map 9-8.
This had nothing to do with the fact that every admin on the CT team was busy typing 'WTFs' :lol:
That's cleared that up then. :D Bloody good match it was too. Great leadership Oldie. Most enjoyable. I seem to recall saying "Gosh! This is exciting." in a priggy schoolboy voice. :D
QuoteOriginally posted by smite@May 1 2004, 03:01 PM
So what you are saying is that CT's should IGNORE a position which is nearest to them to cover and sight the T's coming?
Not at all.
What I said was that CT's shouldn't camp the T's route to short A. As far as I am aware a crouched T making his way to short A can't be hit (or seen?) by a CT at the arch or the base of the ramp. If a T stands up then a CT moving to B through the mincer or checking to see if the T's are going short A can fire at them. Therefore a T should be able to get round to short A without getting killed if he is careful.
What the CT's don't do is camp the ramp and shoot the T's as they come round the corner towards the balcony that runs to short A.
I guess the question is how far up the ramp do the CT's go in order to attack T's moving out from spawn ?
I'd argue not very far if at all. Other than that point I think we all agree :)
So NO CT to go up the ramp at all BUT can go and stay at the bottom Flat LEVEL area from the start of round, then they can only go up if there is an A rush called or the bomb carrier is seen.
Are we agreed on this?
Next we will move onto Dust one :D oooh that should throw up some doozies ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by smite@May 1 2004, 05:12 PM
So NO CT to go up the ramp at all BUT can go and stay at the bottom Flat LEVEL area from the start of round, then they can only go up if there is an A rush called or the bomb carrier is seen.
Ok so what your trying to say then Smite is....Nowts changed :whistle:
QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@Apr 30 2004, 09:58 PM
BUT
They should not cut through the double doors to effect a quick side swipe at the Ts going short A.
This was the bit that got me. I read it as people coming up the ramp to attack T's at the top which is not on.
The joys of forum posting eh. Could have had this conversation and sorted it in about 30 seconds back at the LAN :)