after seeing the response that both benny and fatal received i thought some of our deeper thinking members might like to sink their cerebral fangs into this lil puppy !
ok heres the scene:- i am starting up my own business and needed some business cards. someone was recommended to me who lived in the next village so i thought ok i'll keep it local cos its handy and supports local business etc. so i do all the stuff required to get my cards done, artwork etc and the bloke gets some proofs done and says meet me in the village pub and we can discuss the price and you can have a look at the proofs.
fair enuff i thought and went and had the meeting over a quiet pint. when i saw the bloke i realised it was someone i'd known for about 15 years or so having lived in the village for about 10 years myself, he gave me the price which was £90 a thousand, i wanted 2000 so total cost £180.
so far so good, we exchanged a couple of emails over the weekend and he said the final proofs were ready last monday afternoon. i said great and said im on holiday out of the country from weds morning for a week and id really like the cards done for when i get back.
yep no problem mr fatbob sir was the reply, but he then said i won't be able to get you some samples in that space of time, however ill email a pdf version to you to double check and if all is ok then ill meet up with you in the pub tuesday night before you go so you can sort me out some money.
i phoned him on tuesday afternoon to tell him i had to go to badminton tues night and wouldn't be able to drop off the money to him until after 9pm tuesday night to which he said that he may or may not be in the pub at that time, but if he wasnt there to just put the money in an envelope with his name on and leave it with the barmaid. i wasnt too keen and said i would prefer to drop it through his letterbox at home, but he said no dont worry just leave it at the pub and he would collect it the next afternoon (weds, not last weds the weds b4 that).
me and the missus arrived at about 9:05pm and my wife dropped the envelope off at the pub, she even knew the barmaid who she dropped it off to cos she works at the hairdressers where said missus spends a small fortune every time she goes!!.
voila job done
or so i thought.
got back from hols last weds about 8:00pm so on thurs i checked my email and had nothing about my cards so i phoned his company and spoke to his missus, guess what , the cards wern't ready
no probs im a reasonable bloke and asked when they would be ready, she told me sat maybe but if not then sunday deffo. got a call from him yesterday the cards are ready how about you come over to the pub sunday at 6:00pm and you can have them then. hurrrah i thought, sorted.
duly arrived at the pub at 6 and he showed me the cards, wonderful, properly impressed i was. then he also showed me the bill and asked me how i wanted to pay :blink: a bit shocked and suprised i said pardon me, just run that by me 1 mo gain !. i explained that the money had been dropped off as requested by himself, in envelope with his name on. ok he said it must be behind the bar so he went and had a look but couldnt find anything. eek. so we called the landlady and asked her
her first words were who did we give the envelope to so my missus told her and she then went and rung the barmaid who was on duty that night. thankfully she remembered the missus and the envelope with the dudes name on. we all then stood looking at each other quite bemused for a couple of minutes. when finally he said look i belive you dropped the money off and here you can take the cards phew. but then he also said he still hadnt been paid. to which i replied that i left the money where and when and how he requested.
the landlady said that she would enquire with the other barmaids and would speak to the man tommorrow who in turn said, well we'll leave it till tommorrow and then i'll give you a ring and we can sort something out.
help what do i do
i mean as far as i'm concerned iv'e paid in full for the work thats been done and now have my cards.
as far as hes concerned hes done my cards and hasnt been paid.
i mean i asked him for his address before we went away so i could drop the cash off at his house but he just said no leave it in an envelope with my name on with whoever was behind the bar in the pub !!!!. which i did !!
so am i to pay out another £180 just because he didnt get the money he was supposed to collect the next day. but in fact when i asked him when did he go to collect it he said oh i didnt manage to get in there for a couple of days after that..
im feeling really bad at the moment but i am considering saying look i've done my part to the letter as requested and no i will not be parting with anymore money. sorry but tough you should have gone in the next day and collected it. you even ignored my offer to drop it off at your house.
opinions and views please.
its a moral dilema:- oh yes!
Without offering any legal advice (cos I ain't a lawyer):
From a legal point of view if you passed the money over to the bar as instructed by him then you have given consideration for the work done. Security of the payment then becomes his problem. However:
Can you prove he asked you to leave the money in that way?
Did you get a receipt (which would place a 'duty of care' upon the person taking custody of the money).
Basically if you can prove some of the above then you have a reasonable position from a technical standpoint, but from a practical point of view you are in no mans land. If the supplier took you to small claims court it could fall either way imo.
You could probably succeed in taking the bar to court for the loss of money, but proving the value fo the loss will be difficult without a detailed receipt.
Best solution is to try to prove what was left there and then come to an agreement with the supplier. Maybe pay him a proportion of the total bill - nto fair I know, but it is cheaper and far less hassle than one of you taking the other to small claims court etc. The fact you know him has to be ignored, you may have to do business with him again and he may know peeps you hope to do business with in the future, so it is silly to hold out to pay nothing more. However you ought to make damn sure he realises that running his business in such a way (ie meeting up in pubs and asking for money to be left behind the bar) sucks in the most unprofessional manner.
My 2 cents.
TL.
I'd agree with TL, up until you parting money.
This bloke says leave it in the pub, you show hesitancy, he insists. The barmaid remembers accepting the package, it's not your problem any more. You made the payment as requested.
Look at the other side of it, he could be friends with the barmaid, he could have picked up the money.....he could be stitching you right up. Don't worry about friendships - this is business, dont worry about more trade - there are a million others ready to take his place.
You paid as requested and instructed. His problem.
The problem is that you don't have a receipt for the money you (or the missus) handed over i.e. you can't prove that you have payed for the business cards. This means that he legally can claim the money and you have to pay (again) if you want the cards. What you need to do is to find out what happened with the envelope after it was placed in the pub. If you can't find out where it went I think you have lost your money.
so far with the bloke i've established that
1) he agrees that said money was delivered to pub
2) he agrees i requested to leave said money at his home address not the pub
3) the barmaid has backed up my wife delivering a brown envelope addressed to insert mans name here at 9:05 tuesday evening
4) the landlady said and i quote "i knew something like this would happen one day and i've told people not to do things like this !" whilst lokking at said bloke
i think when i get the phonecall today i'm going to remind him of these facts and gauge the reaction. if its a screaming blue fit then i will say right only one thing for it then i'm gonna get the babylon involved ! and see what reaction i get from both him and the pub.
i also think that offering him half the money seems the fairest thing that way we both lose (assuming he aint pocketed the envelope already) a bit but a handshake should sort that out .
then again i've got a heart like an israeli hijacker when it comes to all things folding and crispy :devil:
the saga continues updates available as soon as......
Er..can he prove you had the cards? i.e. Does he have a reciept?
I'm not a lawyer and you shouldn't rely on anything I'm about to say. It's offered as unprofessional advice and might be complete rubbish. My Law tutor always told me to say this when giving written advice :)
I'm sorry you're having trouble with this, but from a legal point of view it's quite interesting. I did a course on contract law and something very much like this came up.
Even though you are buying the cards in a professional capacity (i.e they are for your work) you are still considered to be a consumer as (I assume) business cards are not a part of your basic business operation. For example a green grocer who buys apples from a fruit supplier is deemed to be expert in dealing in fruit purchases, as fruit is the core part of his business. The law here would be that of Contract Law and there would be little or no protection under Consumer Law, him not being a consumer in the eyes of the courts. However when the green grocer buys paper bags to put the fruit in he is though of as a consumer, as he is not expert in paper bags and they do not form part of his core business. His paper bag purchases would be protected under Consumer Law (Sale of Goods Act etc.).
Business cards are not a core part of your business (I assume?) and therefore even though it was a business purchase you are protected under both Contract Law and Consumer Law.
The main area you need to look at are contract terms. These are the verbal or written conditions agreed by both parties when the contract is formed. One of these terms is the method of payment. You were instructed to make payment by leaving the money behind the bar. You agreedto this condition and it then became a term of the contract. As you did leave the money behind the bar you complied with the term and payment was made. This should be good enough to prove that there was consideration(payment) in the contract (i.e as TL says - you paid for the goods). That the other chap didn't ultimately get the money is irrelivent). You should still get the goods.
The only issue here is one of proof. If he denied everything you'd have to go to a small claims court and sue him for the money you paid him. You'd need to get the bar maid and your wife to be witnesses. I don't think there is any issue about the legitimacy of your claim just whether you can prove what was agreed in court.
As mentioned above you are a consumer and he is a supplier, rather than being two businesses, so you should get a better hearing. It's a lot more straight forward using The Sale of Goods Act to chase your money than Contract Law.
Although for £180 it might not be worth the bother?
Once again this is just me waffling on and if you do take it further get some professional advice. I'm no lawyer and a twelve week course doesn't make me an expert by any stretch of the imagination :D Good luck.
still heard nothing.
but thanx all again for your time and views on the subject nice work smilo i promise i will never speak bad of 12 week courses again
some very interesting points you've made quite succinctly(sp?) you are indeed correct that business cards are not my business ! (lovin ur work fella) so i may be on a winner.
also no ron he hasnt got a receipt for the cards.mwuhaha :whistle:
i did think about telling him that i was going to return the cards and then in a couple of weeks when he phones up to see where they are i'll tell him i left them behind the bar at the pub for him :dribble: :dribble:
plan c just in case its needed
1) Fatal and 10 of his big m8s turn up in a stolen transit van and introduce him to billy the bat :ph34r: :devil: and or sammy the sawn off!!!.
in this modern day of pc'ness and gentle village life, its good to know you can always rely on good old fashioned gang violence to sort out one's problems eh what.