Messages

.... this is no cave!

Lol - I see what you did there!

Actually, I think that has been the intention all along - CR is a massive Star Wars fan...

Yes, CIG have been working on R&D for a procedurally generated cave system, and the following video from Bored Gamer summarises the latest ATV which gave a sneak peek at it:

[video=youtube;Hoc8l4hd_Do]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hoc8l4hd_Do[/video]

CIG have put out a new series of videos to help get newbies started in the game.  There are 7 videos in the series and all are about 5 minutes or less each.

At least one of them will already be out of date when 3.5 drops in a couple of weeks, but I guess that as the videos are quite short, they should be able to change the out of date sections quite quickly.

I'd recommend watching them, even if you're already up to speed with things, as they are quite amusing (the voice-over is hilarious), and you may just learn something you didn't already know.

Start here:
[video=youtube;3t2bNZQqDsg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t2bNZQqDsg&list=PLVct2QDhDrB0SV9hTuNIRuzp  siRph7ezG[/video]

@Obsydian, well put Sir!

Don't thank me - thank TeaLeaf - he did all the editing!

[this game is crap]

Try re-reading what you posted and what I replied and then tell me your comments weren't personal. Your post was arrogant as it was patronising (certainly the bit I highlighted was).

I'm not going to get into a flame war with you. If you fail to see it/disagree then there's little point.

If someone wants to post a simple this game is crap then so be it. It's not your job to tell them they can't post that or need to explain themselves. They don't. If I want to call it a scam. I can. It's my choice and my right. I don't have to justify myself to you or to anyone else. It's a subjective viewpoint which, rightly or wrongly, I have formulated in my own mind and a view which has just as much right to be aired as yours.

Even your latest post stating.............. "What I do have a problem with is people......"

Again, it just comes across as high-handed, patronising and arrogant. I'm surprised you can't see it.

You could so easily have made your interesting post without the insults. A simple.

Sorry you feel that this game is crap or that it's a scam. I think you're wrong and this is why I disagree............  

would have been so much more valid and engaging and I would have read the merit in your posts. However you went with the insulting....... you don't know what a scam is, you're stupid and have no idea what crowdfunding is. shame on you etc.

You've been reminded about our forum guidelines and all I ask is that you take a moment to digest. Like it or not you have to respect people's right to speak their minds. I don't care if it's from a position of ignorance, it is their right. You also have the right to disagree of course but without trying to belittle the people making those comments. Come on, you're erudite and intelligent enough to make a point without the petty insults.

You are, of course, right, Penfold - I am arrogant, and I make no apologies for that.  I also hold myself to high standards, and find it frustrating when others don't appear to do the same.  That's my problem, of course, and I guess I have some adjustment to do on that score.

You're right: with hindsight I could (should) have started off my post differently.  I don't know why, but smilo's post irritated me, and then your post with the 'Scam Citizen' comment somehow triggered me, and I simply went off on one without considering how best to phrase my response.  I guess I'd simply "had enough"...I don't know.

I know you say you don't have to justify your comments to me - and I'm happy to accept that - but I'm still curious as to why you consider the project to be a scam.  As I said, I've asked many others the same, and they've never given me a reason.  Of course, you're free to not give an answer, but I thought I'd ask, if only to see if there's something I've missed, and I've inadvertently devoted my life savings to a con

Posted before I read Penfolds post. Some duplication, sorry.

An interesting and informative post but my main point about expressing your opinion still stands and I'll make it simple.

• This is a free forum that embraces free speech and free expression of opinion. Anyone who posts a thought or opinion should be fully prepared to be disagreed with and to have their views challenged.
• However no one is going to be prevented from actually making that opinion known. No one should feel they have no right to express a view because someone else doesn't agree with it.
• If you have recently played Star Citizen then like myself, Oldie, Albert, Penfold, Obsydian and others, you are free to posts your thoughts here. Your right to express your views will be protected passionately. As will others rights to disagree with you and to say as such.
• If you choose to stick with it or go through the painful process of trying to get some kind of refund (I Don't recommend you bother) that's your call and again you're free to post a comment either way.

On a personal note -  that I'm the dMw Forum Admin has zero effect on my ability to post my thoughts. I am under absolutely no obligation to keep my mouth shut when I have a critical comment to make about a game. I would recommend people do not go out and buy a copy of Star Citizen at the moment. Why? It's not a game that can be played in any meaningful way, It is, as mentioned, a pre alpha. At some point in the future there may well be sufficient content to make for a meaningful gaming experience. That point in time is subjective and depends on the player in question. There's no definitive point when it suddenly becomes a playable game. That's up to you to decide. If you already own the game great, you can just sit tight and test the water as and when you want. All you're giving up is some hard drive space.

 Cloud Imperium have raised over $200,000,000 to date, so I really don't think they need your help with development costs. If you want to buy into the game right now it's about £85.00 for the standalone single player Squadron 42 game and access to the Star Citizen MMO that also includes a basic starter ship (you can by one game without the other for about £42). I have no idea what the cost will be when the game launches but I can't imagine Cloud Imperium could ask much more than the current price. So IMHO I'd keep hold of you cash and wait and see.

There's nothing wrong with where Star Citizen is right now. It's well funded and moving along nicely, I have no idea how long  AAA game takes to develop but at least it's going to be an "It's done when it's done" game and not an EA, Activision rushed to market mess, which is a very good thing. It's clear that Chris Roberts initially planned to launch a much smaller scale game for about $5,000,000 and grow it from there. He's publicly stated that he never dreamed he would have so much money. This has lead to them having to relook at a great deal of their early work and to redo quite a lot of it. Things like procedural planets didn't even exist when Start Citizen was announced. I'm not 100% comfortable with the continued monetisation of the game. It would be nice if they locked it down and just got on with getting the game out but they're the Devs so maybe they know best.... maybe they need to keep their ship designers busy, so they make more and more ships. You can't really ever have too many ships

Personally I hope Squadron 42 launches early next year and a playable Star Citizen later next year. Once Squadron 42 is out the reviews will come in and you can all make your choices as to whether to buy it. As soon as there is a large enough world to explore and multiplayer works properly with solid things for groups to do, then Star Citizen will be to go IMHO. When dMw'ers and gamers in general start playing regularly together and report a decent experience then that's the time to jump in and spend your cash.

And there you go.

Thank you smilo, point taken on the opinion piece.

By way of explanation, I guess I was coming from my own personal viewpoint of how I would act on the forums - I would never deign to comment negatively (or otherwise) on a game that I neither own nor play.  I am also conscious to provide a reason for any negative comments and possible solutions, thus hopefully turning a negative into a potential positive, and I guess I need to be a little more forgiving when others don't do the same.

In any event, it would appear that I overstepped the mark, and for that I apologise (and I now know where the mark is!

Concerning your point about CIG not needed further funding, while I appreciate that that could be a whole topic in itself, my belief is that they do need continued funding in order to complete the game, so I would encourage people to pledge as early as they can for a basic game package (and no more!) in order to help with that (even if they don't actually play until live).  I don't have any hard and fast figures, but with over 500 employees, 4 offices (5, I guess, if you count Derby) and continued network and server charges, I wouldn't be surprised if their burn rate was in the region of $4m-$5m per month.  By previous estimates I've done in the past, most of the backer money was used up a while ago, and they are existing off the monthly pledges.  That said, they did sell a percentage of the company recently to an undisclosed investor for $110m, so that's a good 2 year's worth of costs covered right there, so you could be right.

My guestimate is that we'll go to beta in 2020, so we should have a more complete experience by then.  Live?  Who knows, but I'd say 2022.

[uninformed]

Albert's response was disproportionate to Smilo's post just as yours is to mine.

Every member is entitled to their opinion and their right to post it. Just if their views do not align with yours does not give you the right to launch into a personal diatribe.

You've turned what was a discussion about a game into something personal and name-calling. Well done.

in a space of a post you've told members they're uninformed and whinging.



is waaaaaaay more insulating than anything Smilo, I or OB posted. It's incredibly arrogant and patronising. You know nothing about me so don't presume to lecture me as I wouldn't you.

I feel that Star Citizen has morphed into something that was not originally conceived and a victim of its own success. Not saying they were mendacious from the outset but it's funny how they keep having to change their T&C's to accommodate the push backs and changing ethos of the game. It's not what a lot of people signed-up for (hmm all sounds a bit brexit-ish).

If you want a discussion about the game then foster it but not at the personal expense of those people whose opinions differ to yours. Personally I love Ark and have put up with years and years of people complaining how bad and buggy it is. That's their right (and it was true) but we suck it up.

Smilo can say what he likes about the game. Just because he's given up on it does not mean he's barred from talking about it. We don't work like that. Tough.

I fully understand you're totally committed to Star Citizen, and have invested a lot of time and money into it. Good for you. I sincerely hope it pans out to be the best thing ever and brings out our community en masse to play it. Feel free to post up your thoughts as others will do theirs but keep the personal comments out of it.

I have no problem with people having different opinions to mine, and I am more than happy to actively engage in a debate and discussion about anything to do with Star Citizen.

What I do have a problem with is people simply slagging off the game in posts which basically come across as "this game is shite, don't buy it" without any real reference as to why...I have a problem with it not being put as a question that can be debated but as a statement of fact, which shuts down any potential conversation.  It wasn't the discussion that you claim it to be.  That's the point I was trying to make.

And I didn't call anyone any names.  I said that posting negative comments as I've just described is nothing short of whinging, and if people make statements that are inaccurate due to them not being in full possession of the facts, then what would you call it?  Sorry, but I stand by my statement.

As for calling the development a scam, I've seen it all over: on forums, YouTube video comments, Facebook, etc., I'm fed up with it, I don't understand why some people keep insisting it's a scam, and yet no one calling it that (that I've asked) has EVER backed up their claim as to why they consider it a scam.  I just didn't expect to encounter it here, and I stand by what I said -  no, I don't know you, but the only thing I have to judge you by are your words here, and if you really do believe the development is a scam then I feel my comments were justified.  Prove me wrong by explaining to me in what way the development could possibly be a scam - I would gladly and sincerely apologise if that were the case.

[It's been in development for 5 years...]

I’d like to put the record straight and correct a few erroneous comments I’ve seen made:

It's been in development for 5 years...
The game has been in development for nearly 6 years now (not 5 or, as the demented DS often states depending upon the phase of the moon, 7 or .  So why is it not “done” yet?  The average AAA game takes approx. 7 years to make, and often those 7 years aren’t enough, and the developer is forced to ship an incomplete and/or buggy game at the behest of the publisher, and then has to release patch after patch to ‘finish’ the game.  E.g. Team Fortress 2 took 9 years to make!  And that’s with a limited number of players, on very small maps, using cartoon-quality graphics, and it does only one thing: FPS.  By that yard stick, if it takes another 3 years to finish Star Citizen, it still would have only taken the same amount of time as Team Fortress 2, and yet will be a much more varied game.
The other point that people often forget is that as of 6 years ago CIG didn’t exist.  Most AAA games take 7 years to develop, but frequently that’s by an established studio, complete with teams of employees already in place, and usually assets from a previous incarnation of the next game to draw from (CoD, I’m looking at you), but CIG had none of that.  They started with about 6 people coding on second-hand machines in someone’s dining room!  They had to hire new people, rent new premises, buy equipment, etc. before they could even get started on the real development, and then have to build on that over the next 5 years, expanding as the scope of the game expanded.  In short, they had to build a studio at the same time as trying to build not one, but two games, involving developing technology that has never been been used in gaming before!  So to be where we are with the development after just 6 years is actually bloody impressive, if you ask me.
 
300 employees - what are they doing?
CIG now employs over 500 people (not 300), across 4 studios in 3 countries.  What are they all doing?  Well, the complete list would be too long, but as a flavour:

• Ship concept artists.
• Ship designers.
• Ship 3D artists.
• Ship animation programmers.
• weapon concept artists.
• Weapon designers.
• Weapon 3D artists.
• Weapon animation programmers.
• Gameplay programmers.
• Clothing concept artists.
• Clothing 3D designers.
• UI designers.
• UI programmers.
• VFX programmers.
• Sound programmers.
• Character animators.
• Rigging.
• Animation and mo-cap teams.
• Physics programmers.
• Biome designers.
• Network engineers.
• Tools programmers.
• Lore writers.
• QA Testers.
• Etc.

From the beginning, CIG pledged to develop the game in an open forum, warts and all â€" we get to see a game developed from the ground up and take shape gradually over the years.  On the RSI forums back in 2013, when everyone was bleating on about the game coming out in 2014, I said that based on the scope of the game as I understood it back then, it was unlikely to be finished by 2016, and that 2018 was a more reasonable target.  I got slated for it.  But most of those people don’t have 35+ years experience of development like I did.  Game development often involves many twists and turns, and it is extremely common for development to change tack as it goes, dropping features once thought mandatory, introducing features that were thought impossible, or even starting the development all over again from the scratch, not just once or twice, but sometimes more!  Watching “the sausage being made” isn’t necessarily pleasant, and many people are not suited to that â€" and I would recommend that those people buy the game, don’t install it, and wait until it goes live before playing.  Basically, anyone who complains about the amount of time it has taken for CIG to get to this point really doesn’t understand game development, and needs to uninstall the game, go and play something else, and come back once it’s ready.
 
It should be better than this, it's in beta after all.
The game is currently in ALPHA (Chris Roberts frequently refers to it as pre-alpha), not Beta.  Alpha is where features are still being added to the game, beta is where the game is “feature complete” but not yet content complete.  Most of the content will be added during beta â€" again, this is very common in game development, and players tend not to get invites to play the game until beta, by which time most, if not all, of the features are already present.  Currently we are at the stage where features are still being designed, coded and added, but some content is being added and used as a test-bed for the features.  It’s the reason we’re still limited to just the one system and one planet right now â€" they have to get those working properly before expanding, but once that expansion starts, it will be very quick.  Again, if you don’t understand this then you need to step back and wait at least for beta.  In my opinion, I believe we’re looking at going into beta some time in 2020, with a go live somewhere around 2022 â€" so if you don’t have the stomach for it, wait until then before trying the game again.
 

Lack of content?  Nothing to do?  Seriously?
Since 3.0 â€" so basically the last 12 months â€" we’ve had:

• A new planet, a major industrial city and 7 moons to explore.
• Several “truck stops” to explore, refuel and repair at.
• Mining on planets, moons and space.
• Buying and selling of commodities.
• Courier missions.
• Combat missions.
• AI in FPS and Space
• Quantum Interdictions.
• FOIP
• VOIP
• 4 driveable ground vehicles.
• 3 driveable hover bikes.
• At least 6 new flyable ships.
• Reworks of 2 lines of ships.
• New ship weapons.
• New FPS weapons.
• New clothing.
• Renting and buying of ships in game (no need to buy any with real money from now on).

Yes, it’s a glitch-fest, it’s bug-ridden, there are crashes and things that don’t work…but that’s because it’s ALPHA…it is NOT a completed game!  But that’s not to say you can’t have some fun with it.
 
So, in closing, I guess I would like to ask that we discuss the game’s shortcomings as they stand now, refrain as far as possible from simply being negative, and try to promote a positive message about where the game is going.

Played for about an hour and a half tonight, and spent a huge amount of time trying to figure out the controls as it was all new to me!  I was also fighting against my HOTAS which doesn't seem to be set up correctly: with my throttle at zero, the ship was always doing 21m/s!  And I couldn't find a way to stop my mouse from moving my ship about!

After spending about 5 minutes in QT to Hurston, I then had to figure out how to land the ship...pointed at Loreville but my QT drive kept telling me I was too close (about 17000km away!).  I eventually landed in darkness and got out of my ship to try and figure out how to find Loreville as I'd landed in the middle of nowhere.  I got no replies in chat, so eventually started up my ship again and opened the route planner.  Locate Loreville (I'd landed on the wrong side of the planet!) and set a course for it.  Took off and tried to get back into space with my fuel alarm going off (still no idea whether I was doing it right), and when I exited the atmosphere I throttled back and engaged the QD, and sat back as it took me around the planet and emerged over Loreville (this time in sunlight!).  I (eventually) landed outside of Loreville in one of the rubbish dumps:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4731[/ATTACH]
Not too much damage considering the battle I had to land her!

Saw a sign to Gate 04, so started running in that direction:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4732[/ATTACH]

6.5km (and about 40 minutes) later, it was pitch dark, but I finally came across the sign for gate 04:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4733[/ATTACH]

About 5 minutes more of running and I finally got there!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4734[/ATTACH]

Took the train to central:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4735[/ATTACH]

Went to the workers area to rey and rent a hab, but couldn't get any response from the cleark, so I had a wander around.  Unfortunately I clipped through the wall and fell through the floor and watched helplessly as my character flailed as it fell to its doom...and woke up back on Port Olisar:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4736[/ATTACH]

FPS was quite varied, with a max of about 70 and a min of around 20 (I have a 980ti).

Feel quite exhausted after all that, but I do like the slow paced, massive scale of it all.  I still need to iron out the kinks with my controls though, and learn how to fly again

Yeah, I was on for about 20 minutes last night, just trying it out and seeing what fps I was getting - over 60 in Port Olisar (on Ultra High).  Unfortunately, it's been so long since I played, I've forgotten how to get my ship off the pad!  I've got a Valkyrie, and it took me about 5 minutes to find how to get in it...

I'll need to schedule some time to get back in game and start learning the controls again!

You have to be kidding? I was down to 2fps going through the tunnels to the elevators in the station with my 1080Ti running hot nad my 4790K at 89% for just SC! I cannot believe they have put this version to live.

I'm downloading the update now and will give it a try when I can.  I'm seeing reports of over 100fps in space and over 30fps in Lorville, so could 2fps perhaps indicate an issue with your machine?  I presume you've got at least 16GM RAM and are running SC off an SSD, yes?

EDIT: According to posts on Reddit, most people seem to be experiencing roughly 20+fps more in the live build than they did in the PTU, so it may be worth you giving the live build a go.

As in its on LIVE not PTU?

Soryy, ye, I meant the PTU, however, it's actually just gone LIVE!

More Hurston gorgeousness:

[video=youtube;pA6P2WserfU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA6P2WserfU[/video]

[video=youtube;4GivIXz2Gcc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GivIXz2Gcc[/video]

PS: 3.3.5 is now open to everyone.

On the topic of things to do and playability, several of the podcasts I listen to would agree with you there, Albert - no more than a few hours and you can pretty much cover off all of the current content - unless you're trying to unlock the mission givers, in which case it'll be a case of rinse and repeat to get your standing up with the one you're after.  Unless of course, you're into exploring and simply gawping at the beautiful graphics, in which case you could be there for days, or weeks, even!

I've never played Monster Hunter, so have no frame of reference, but now that OCS is in the client, and looking to have the server side OCS up and running soon, I suspect that the instances in SC are going to be smaller than they have been thus far.  And once we get server meshing in (hopefully before the end of 2019) then we're looking at a release candidate and just waiting for gameplay and content to catch up.  At that point, we should have all of the tech hurdles sorted, and I don't think the spec required to run the game would increase greatly after that point (unless they decide to implement some new technology down the line).  As an example, you only have to look at Eve Online - the game runs fine on decades old hardware, and the only reason to upgrade is when the devs stop supporting specific GPUs.

I've also heard that much of the work currently being done by the CPU is gradually being moved to the GPU.  The conversion to Vulkan should improve this as well, so that may stave off the need to upgrade for a while.

That said, those below the recommended minimum spec will, no doubt have to upgrade at some point if they want a good experience.

3.3.5 is on the PTU and is available to Evocati and Subscribers and Concierge - likely to drop in the next few days according to some sources...

Hurston to Space Timelapse (this was before the latest patch in which Hurtson now revolves on its axis).
[video=youtube;o9xUg-A8kr0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9xUg-A8kr0[/video]

And here's another video showing the sunset and sunrise over Lorville:
[video=youtube;_37uHGTXv6o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_37uHGTXv6o[/video]