Early assist calls

[Umbra]

As Bastet originally said, it's not so much not enough time for warrior as no time at all, if a ranged class starts attack before a warrior has got any hits in (this could be becasue he hasn't got there yet or the first hit misses, and NO you can't always do sunder immediately cos that requires rage) then often he has to run after it again, reducing time in contact, also taunt is only a temporary thing to keep the mob ther while he generates some permanent aggro, afterwards it can run away again, if so he has to chase it some more while the taunt cools down, since aggro generating effects have about 0.000001 yard range

So yes, it's a good rule of thumb that 2 sunders means the tank has hit it a few times, I don't know anyone tanking who will jsut walk up and use standard attack, any tank in SoG knows some decent aggro combos, but you MUST give them time to build them, that includes rage building sometimes. neither attacks or rage will build if he's out of range while chasing the damn things all over an instance because some ranged fool got trigger happy. All in all, it's a few seconds to reach a mob, maybe a second or two till the first attack kicks in (some weapons are slow, easy test is to select melee attack on some target, and run through it, see how far behind it you get before the attack actually happens), then a few attacks to get some decent rage to start spamming aggro skills (bit less if you used bloodrage but that's finite). Once they get going you can't take aggro off a tank really.

Lastly , tank getting up clsoe can get stunned (Gehennas? or whatever), slowed (Garr), feared (magmadar) or allsorts that ranged classes don't get involved in. Tanks have to do a hell of alot before the tanking gets stable, so wait for it or die, but certainly don't complain that a tank is 'losing aggro' if he never had a chance to get it in the first place.

An example was at sulfuron, or whatever with the priests, when you are positioning a mob, you get a couple of hits in and then focus on positioning, thus, you taunt it, sunder it, maybe HS, then you drag it somewhere out of range of healing. If it stops halfway to eat a warlock/hunter, gets healed, wipes the raid, the only thing I'll say is 'don't sodding well attack it before it's positioned, the tank has started fully tanking, and a RL says dps go'

WAIT FOR 2 SUNDERS OR YOU CAN SLEEP WITH THE SALAMANDERS:)

[Sandrion]

Yep, 2 sunders is a good rule. On the dragons Manny couldn't get them off me if I got two mauls on it first (not even if he got an aimed + auto + multi crit after that), but like Bastet said:

After that, some classes can get over the agro cieling of a tank (the speed they make agro w/) hunters mainly, why they FD a lot. locks dont have the luxury.

If everyone watches KTM for there threat level it shouldn't be a problem.
 
But if you look at the numbers I posted it seems unlikely to me that someone will do enough damage to get a mob of the tank; unless the tank has problems with building up rage. Warriors should also have less trouble with the damage mitigation of mobs, since there abilities generate a set amount of threat. Does anyone have any calculations that (realisticly) show the amount of threat a warrior generates in average/worst case scenarios?

[Bob]

If everyone watches KTM for there threat level it shouldn't be a problem.

In my oppinion, addons such as KTM shouldn't really be used.  People should be able to handle their aggro without it.  And for it to be correct, you also need everybody in it...
And also, what about the day when there comes a patch that makes KTM not work?  And you're all dependant on it to not pull aggro?
Not a good idea <_<

[Sandrion]

True, KTM is just a tool that's there for your confience. But I have too say it can be very usefull for the DPS classes.
 
But note that if you are useing a druid as tank (like on Hexxer) it probably won't really work since it is incorrect (it showed less then I really had). It doesn't record faerie fire, which is not really a problem since doesn't generate much aggro (180 every 10secs), but it also recorded only half the amount of threat when I critted with maul (a crit of 650 causes about 3k threat but it only registered 1.5k. With a crit rate of 20% it's way off within a minute already :thumbsdown: ).
 
Edit: KTM isn't as bad as I thought, check the calculations on page 3 for details. The part about maul crits here is not true.

[Dajo]

Here is some background info to make threat abit easyer to understand:
 
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Definitions: Threat vs Aggro, Threat Scale
 
We define "aggro" to be who the mob is attacking. A player has aggro, or pulls aggro, when the mob is attacking them. We define "threat" to be a numeric value that each mob has towards each player. Note that the target who has aggro is not necessarily the player with the highest threat.
 
To set a scale for threat, let 1 point of damage from a normal attack cause 1 point of threat, where the sense of normal will be clarified later. The threat values of some abilities are listed in the MPQs, and this 1:1 scale matches those abilities (e.g. feint, distracting shot, fade).
 
 
The Threat List
 
Imagine every mob as keeping a list of players and their threat values. If the mob is unaware of a player, that player will not be on the threat list. As soon as the mob becomes aware of a player, in the ways described below, they are put on the list with 0 threat. Knowing which players are on a mobs threat list and which mobs have a certain player on their threat lists is crucial in predicting a mobs behaviour.
 
A player can get on a mobs threat list in the following ways:
 
1) Body Pulling, i.e. getting close enough to a mob that is out of combat.
2) Body Pulling linked mobs. When you body pull a mob, youll also get onto the threat lists of all mobs that are linked to it. Note that after the pull they become unlinked; a second person attacking one of the mobs will only get on that mobs threat list after the pull.
3) Buffing a player that is on the mobs threat list. That is, casting a healing spell or other buff spell.
4) Direct damage or casting a debuff on the mob. Some debuffs, notably mind vision and hunters mark, wont put you on the mobs threat list.
5) Bosses in-combat pulse. For most high level instance bosses, every tick (2 seconds) every player in the instance is added to the boss threat list when the boss is in combat.
6) In combat proximity. Many mobs with secondary targeting or AOE abilities will add nearby players to their threat lists. For other mobs, as long as they are in combat you can stand on top of them and not get added to their threat list.
 
 
Aggro Transfer, Threat Decay
 
To prevent mobs rapidly swapping targets when many players have similar threat, a mob will stay on its current target unless another player has significantly higher threat. Suppose a mob has aggro on a certain player X. Then to pull aggro while in melee range, another player needs 110% of Xs threat. If the other player is outside melee range, they need 130% of Xs threat to pull aggro. This means than in general, once you have aggro it is easy to keep it, and once you lose aggro it is hard to regain it. It also stops two players attacking a mob from range and constantly swapping aggro between them, because as their threat increases, the 30% margin will be harder and harder to overcome.
 
Note that the 10% effect is determined only by your range, not the ability used. If you are generating threat from healing or a range ability such as Frostbolt, you will still pull aggro at 110% if you are within melee range of the mob.
 
In the normal course of events, threat does not decay. Once you are on a mobs threat list, youre there until its dead or you are, and your threat does not decay over time. There are of course mobs with specific abilities that reduce threat, and player abilities also, which do decrease your threat.
 
 
AOE Threat: Healing, Buffing, Power Gain
 
Each point of healing causes 0.5 threat, forgetting threat modifiers. Overhealing doesnt cause threat. Most buff spells cast on friendly players generate a small amount of threat. Gaining Power (Mana / Energy / Rage) also causes threat in most cases, for example taking a healing potion, or gaining rage from Bloodrage, or Energy from Thistle Tea. Certain spells are exempt, for example mana from Blessing of Wisdom or a Mana Spring totem doesnt cause threat, and there is no threat from the healing gained from Siphon Life. For normal abilities, each point of Mana is 0.5 threat, Rage is 5 threat, and Energy is unknown, probably 5. In the scheme of things, threat from power gain is usually irrelevant, unless you have consistent or burst values, such as taking a mana potion or having Fel Energy running.
 
These forms of buffs all have infinite range; they will cause threat to all mobs on whose threat list you are on. Furthermore, the threat caused is split equally among all the affected mobs. If you are on one mobs threat list, a 1000 point heal will cause 500 threat to that mob. If 5 mobs are aware of you, the same heal will cause 100 threat on each mob.
 
Note that threat caused from Power Gain is not affected by threat modifiers. Gaining 1 point of Rage will give 5 threat whether you are in Battle Stance or Defensive Stance.
 
Threat Modifiers: Common Modifiers, Interaction
 
Here are some of the more common threat modifiers and their values, assuming you have the maximum number of talent points in the talents mentioned:
 
Warrior in Defensive Stance / Druid in Bear Stance: x1.3
Warriors 5/5 Defiance / Druidss 5/5 Feral Instinct: x1.15 (in above stances only)
Warrior in Battle or Berserker Stance: x0.8
Rogue (passive, always on): x0.8
Blessing of Salvation: x0.7
Tranquil Air Totem: x0.8
Priests 5/5 Silent Resolve: x0.8 (spells)
Mages 3/3 Frost Channelling: x0.7 (frost spells)
Mages 2/2 Arcane Subtlety: x0.6 (arcane spells)
 
As of 1.12, all threat modifiers are multiplicative, which makes them independent. Blessing of Salvation "reduces your threat by 30%", which is implemented as "multiplies your threat by 70%". Two different modifiers just multiply on each other, so Blessing of Salvation + Arcanist 8/8 + Frost Channeling would be 0.7 x 0.85 x 0.7 = 41.65% threat. The primary effect of the 1.12 change is to stop several threat modifiers combining too powerfully; for example it was possible to achieve 0% threat generation using the Fetish of the Sand Reaver.
 
It is useful to consider the inverse multiplier, which is the increase in damage or healing potential as a result of a threat modifier. Suppose you have Blessing of Salvation on, for a 0.7 threat modifier. Then to get 1 point of threat, you can now do 1 / 0.7 = 1.43 points of damage. In other words, the Blessing of Salvation buff allows you to do 43% more damage for the same threat. Similarly, the Rogue passive modifier allows you to do 25% more damage for 1 threat. To combine them, just multiply 1.43 * 1.25 = 79% more damage for 1 point of threat, compared to a player with no threat modifiers.
 
 
Class Abilities and Talents in Detail
 
Warrior
 
Most warrior abilities add a fixed amount of threat when they land successfully. The following table gives the raw values, i.e. before the modifiers from battle stance or defensive stance, and ignores the damage done by the abilities.
 
Sunder Armor............260
Heroic Strike 8.........145
Heroic Strike 9 (AQ)....175
Revenge 5...............315
Revenge 6 (AQ)..........355
Shield Bash.............180
Shield Slam (1.11)......250
Thunder Clap............130
Demoralizing Shout.......43
Battle Shout.............55
Cleave..................100
 
For a non-tanking warrior against a single target, Cleave will give a lower threat per damage than heroic strike, but only if you have 3/3 Improved Cleave, and in any case the difference is marginal. To compare them, we can disregard the armour of the target and the autoattack components, since they will both be affected equally. Then Rank 9 Heroic Strike is 2.10 threat per damage, while 3/3 Improved Cleave is 1.91 threat per damage.
 
Battle Shout generates 55 threat for each player that is buffed; up to 5 people in your party and their pets, as long as they are on the relevant mob's threat list. For example if you buff a player that is out of combat, no threat is generated. Therefore in a tightly packed group, Battle Shout can rival Sunder Armor for threat, but as a buff the threat is split amongst all the mobs that are aware of you. On the other hand, Demoralizing Shout gives 43 threat to each affected mob. As long as there are 6 or more mobs affected, it will hold aggro as well or better than Sunder Armor.
 
Recently (1.11.x), the behaviour of Taunt has been buffed slightly. It now does three things:
1) Taunt debuff. The mob is forced to attack you for 3 seconds. Later taunts by other players override this.
2) You are given threat equal to the mob's previous aggro target, permanently. Importantly, you won't necessarily get as much threat as the highest person on the mob's list, only as much as whoever is currently tanking it.
3) You gain complete aggro on the mob at the instant you taunt. Usually you would need 10% more threat to gain aggro (see section 3), but a taunt now gives you instant aggro on the mob. Of course if other people are generating significant threat on the mob, they could exceed your threat by more than 10% before the taunt debuff wears off, and will gain aggro as soon as it does. There is no limit to the amount of threat you can gain from Taunt.
 
While Challenging Shout and Mocking Blow have a similar forced attack debuff to Taunt, they do not give the caster threat in the same way as Taunt, just fixed amounts.
 
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Disclaimer: This is not written by me.

[Sandrion]

Yep, I read that piece on WoWWiki.
I was looking at the threat values of the warrior abilities yesterday and seeing them again in Dajo's post again made me realise that they actually cause a lot less threat then I expected them too do.
Revenge ranks 6 is (90 (damage) + 355 (base threat)) * 1.45 = 645.25 (slightly less if the damage of the ability is mitigated and can only be used when the target dodges/parries/blocks which means you won't be able to use it consistantly).
And sunder is only 260 * 1.45 = 377.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but since sunder costs 12 rage you probably won't be spamming them? Also because you dodge/parry/block lots of attacks resulting in less rage being build up?
 
So if a range class is doing 400DPS (which is doable right?), you will need to spam sunder every: 377 / (400 / 1.3 * 0.7) = 1.75 seconds if you want to keep it off a ranged class with salvation on (keeping revenge and aggro time out of the equation). I guessing this is fairly impossible. Can anyone confirm this?

[Bastet]

400 sounds okee, maybe a tad low. Also you can spam sunder at it full 15 rage cost, if you get hit by mobs in MC you make quite a bit of rage

[Sandrion]

If you can indeed spam sunder armor....
 
The global cooldown is 1.5 seconds, so if you are spamming sunder that's: 260 * 1.45 / 1.5 = 251.3333... TPS
White damage with quel'sarrar and 1000 (buffed) AP = 124 DPS.
The worst TPS you can get is with 75% mitigation = 124 * 25% = 31 + 251.333.. = 282.333...
Which equals:
Melee aggro gain: 282.333... / 0.7 / 0.8 * 1.1 = 555 DPS
Ranged aggro gain: 282.333... / 0.7 * 1.3 = 524 DPS
 
This means any class would have to consistantly do well over 500DPS to get it off the tank.
 
So lets check that.
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I picked the lock because that class has by far the most damage potential because of there DOTs.
 
A decent lock with 400 +damage and 15% crit (with the ruin talent) will do:
 
Shadow bolt rank 10 = 510 damage avg + 400 = 910.
After crits: 910 + (910 * 0.15 * 2) = 1183 average damage per shadow bolt.
With talents the cast time of a shadow bolt is 2.5 seconds, which will give you: 1183 / 2.5 = 473 DPS.
 
Corruption with talents is instant (only 1.5 global cooldown).
822 + 400 over 18 seconds (+1.5 sec from global cooldown) = 63 DPS.
 
Curse of agony:
1044 + 400 over 24 sec (+1.5 sec from global cooldown) = 57 DPS.
 
With totals a sustainable DPS of: 473 + 63 + 57 = 593.
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So they can get it of the tank if they want too. However this is with all the right talents on the lock, (imp shadow bolt, imp corruption, ruin). And they can get 10% more with the master demonlogist talent in combination with a succabus, although I'd advice them to use the imp instead for -20% threat (less threat means you can nuke more).
 
But also note that the warrior in this example only uses sunder armor and is hardly doing any white damage. In a real situation they will also use revenge (very high threat) and use heroic strike as rage dump. Under the condition that the warrior has more rage then he can spend, there should be no way in hell that he is letting go; Save for some very unfortunate series of crits.
 
Can anyone check if I made a mistake anywhere and if the lock's stats are somewhat similar to someone with BWL gear?