Neo-conservatives v Islamic Fundamentalists

[smilodon]

Begin.......

[Benny]

I think it's just gonna be me and you!

I think one of the key points that stood out was the Team B analysis over-riding the CIA  reports that the Soviets were a danger as they had no proof. The logic going that no proof means they must be hiding it better than we thought.

There is a name for this kinda argument that I can't remember.
I absolutely agree that the US/UK powers do accelerate fears to unite the masses against a common enemy, but perhaps not as strongly as the programme suggested.
The 9/11 attacks were an outrage but no more or less so than the combined attacks elsewhere. As the programme also raises, if this damage was caused by 11 individuals, the propogation of the Al Quaidiuiuda myth surely furthers their cause. (similar to the public outcry at the beheadings due to the media whoring that goes with them)


It certainly highlights the involvement of the US in other countries policies, and then being bitten by the animal/monster they created.  By accentuating the danger they can ignore the fact that they were part of the problem and go in as the heroes to save the day.

[Benny]

While I'm at it. An overview for those who haven't seen it.
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_i...tnode_id=779713

[smilodon]

This is going to be a short thread as I more or less agree with what you say    To qualify- I'm an anti-conspiracy theorist. By that I mean in life strange things usually turn out to be explained by the simplest reason. I don't believe there's a shadowy neo-conservative government within the Government, planninmg and scheming like something that fell out of a James Bond film. I don't believe in a secret army of nutty fanatics hell bent on destroying western civilisation. There are just trends, broad based ideals and beliefs. The program discussed some obvious truths but took it too far when it suggested there was some organised plot by Britian and America to fool us people into thinking we're fighting a war against an enemy that doesn't exist. Bush & Blair just ain't that clever.

[Dingo]

Originally posted by smilodon@Nov 9 2004, 05:39 PM
Bush & Blair just ain't that clever.

[post=68955]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

....but the cleverest thing the devil ever did was to convince us he doesn't exist :ph34r:

Observe if you will the current climate in France where the wearing of Religious clothing has been banned in schools. Le Penn and his cronies came close to being in power in a country that is a "friend" of the Arab world and Muslim fundamentalism is on the rise across the whole Globe.

Is that the clopping of sixteen tiny feet I hear :help:

[Doorman]

Muslim fundamentalism is fine................In muslim countries. It's when it's preached and practiced in 'Christian' countries that the real problems will/are arise/arising. I'll say no more because I'll be branded a racist. I'm already a blood lusting killer of baby foxes  :devil:

[A Twig]

The problem is that politicians are no longer prepared to contradict the media. So the media comes up with an outlandish claim, goes to a politician, so who is so afraid of being wrong that they do not quash aforesaid satement, indeed often they acknowledge it. And so it then becomes "fact" and it spirals over onwards and upwards from there.

My 2c

[smilodon]

Originally posted by Dingo+Nov 9 2004, 09:17 PM-->

QUOTE(Dingo @ Nov 9 2004, 09:17 PM)

....but the cleverest thing the devil ever did was to convince us he doesn't exist :ph34r:

Observe if you will the current climate in France where the wearing of Religious clothing has been banned in schools. Le Penn and his cronies came close to being in power in a country that is a "friend" of the Arab world and Muslim fundamentalism is on the rise across the whole Globe.

[/b]

I don't think that had anything to do with Le Penn. IUn fact i don't believe there was any degree of racism involved at all. France is a secular state and has been since the Revolution. They banned all forms of religious clothing or symbolism because they believe fundamentally that a state run school should be free from forms of religious symbolism. They don't have morning prayers or formally celebrate religious festivals in any form. This is just an extension of that secular belief.

 

[Benny]

But is there an argument for overstating so that you see the overstatement and fall back to the middle ground.

By spouting an exagerrated truth doesn't it make you want to find the real middle ground.

[smilodon]

Nope, that's inaccurate and sensationalist journalism. The target audience for that program is clever enough to understand the premise IMHO

[ChimpBoy]

Originally posted by smilodon@Nov 9 2004, 11:24 PM
This Al Kwie Eddah da da da myth, if that is what it is, is as much a media invention as it is a Sahdowy Government one.

To what extent is this a myth?  That they exist?  That they operate cells in a number of countries and are active in terror?  Not sure I understand how far you're going.  Personally I'd never heard of them before 9/11 (and I'd go so far as to say 99% of the populus hadn't either), so to call it a media made myth puzzles me.

Haven't seen the program, but this line puzzled me when you said "myth".

[Benny]

The program indicates that the term Al Kieeeada was invented to create an organisation to tie someone to for a prosecution back in the day. It essentially questions whether this great 'Spectre' or 'SMERSH' really exists in the form it is portrayed rather than a rag tag bunch of individuals.

In all the arrests related to terrorism there hasn't been a single thread of evidence indicating the existence of this huge complicated precision run terror machine.

EDIT: And you can download the program from Suprnova if you want to see it (you do!)

[Dingo]

Originally posted by smilodon@Nov 9 2004, 11:24 PM
As I said 'Nightmares' is just far too clever for it's own good. The reality is almost certainly a much more tame version of what that program suggests. We always have too look for the complicated, weird solution. And we always reject something that seems more mundane and common place.

[post=68978]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

Wasn't that what Neville Chamberlain said just before the Nazis overran Poland?


Ships?, Ships?, I see no Ships?!!


Then again if you didn't live in a leafy suburbian middle England, but instead in one of the myriad ghettos of muslim communities springing up across this Fair Isle and the rest of  Europe, your view might be somewhat different?


Suggest you read the following link and then tell me the decision by the French
was purely because of the secular nature of their education
http://www.meforum.org/article/337


Just how deep is the sand where you live anyway?? <_<

[smilodon]

Whatever.

I still refuse to believe I'm the victim of some great Anglo US conspiracy perpetrated by Bush, Blair and the CIA. All this cloak and dagger bollox has been spouted time and time again. Who shot JFK? what happened at Roswell? etc etc. Cospiracy theories are the preserve of the deluded and paranoid.

It's way off topic but take Crop Circles. Many sad people believe they are the work of spirts or aliens. Snake-oil salesmen and the cronically deluded write books, make TV programs and spout endless rubbish about how they are formed. Whole industries feed off the general public's insatiable appetite for extreme solutions to simple realities.

I find it a great tragedy that people can't be satisfied with the truth that these circles are the result of extraordinary imaginations and artistic skill of ordinary people like you and me. Why can't we revel in the real achievements of people, rather than have to invent some fanciful and daft idea.

Likewise why not accept that 'Nightmares' takes a plausable idea that the US is becoming isolationalist and more conservative post Sept 11th and then stretches it past breaking point?

[ChimpBoy]

Originally posted by Benny@Nov 10 2004, 07:20 PM
The program indicates that the term Al Kieeeada was invented to create an organisation to tie someone to for a prosecution back in the day. It essentially questions whether this great 'Spectre' or 'SMERSH' really exists in the form it is portrayed rather than a rag tag bunch of individuals.

In all the arrests related to terrorism there hasn't been a single thread of evidence indicating the existence of this huge complicated precision run terror machine.

EDIT: And you can download the program from Suprnova if you want to see it (you do!)

[post=69009]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

Coolio - can't question whether there is evidence or not, so I'll go with you on that one.

I still question though whether a "rag tag bunch of individuals" could have had the organisation, resources, planning skills, finances, and, ultimately, the will to steal 4 planes and launch them into well known American institutions.  This isn't some suicide bomber with some nitro strapped under his coat walking along to a shopping precinct in Israel.  It takes a lot more to pull this off.

As deplorable as 9/11 is, you have to have some grudging admiration for the kind of organisation, will and belief that that action took.  That's why I can so readily believe in the presence of an Al Queada.