Forum quality

[Gorion]

Originally posted by Sinap@Mar 19 2006, 12:41 AM
Yeah you guys can laugh all you like about some picture Voretex photoshopped Aslong as I can call Kreuz a noob, Neff AFK man and ask Luthor for Fearward every 5 minutes

[post=117972]Quoted post[/post]

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AHA! so i was right about my gut feeling...!

[Luthor]

Originally posted by Sinap@Mar 19 2006, 12:41 AM
Yeah you guys can laugh all you like about some picture Voretex photoshopped Aslong as I can call Kreuz a noob, Neff AFK man and ask Luthor for Fearward every 5 minutes

[post=117972]Quoted post[/post]

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So Sinap, i guess i have to figure out some way i can start harrasing you?

Fearward? pfftt... thats for tango Priests  

[Sinap]

what priest are you, melee spec? Pfft.. go to IF "LFG Any Instance, im a melee spec priest, i dont heal or give fearward!!!111"

[Tinilgawiel]

Now you all are being off topic  :roflmao:

[Sinap]

In the off-topic forums

[Bob]

Originally posted by Tinilgawiel@Mar 20 2006, 09:32 AM
Now you all are being off topic :roflmao:

[post=118094]Quoted post[/post]

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I don't think there ever has been a thread that has stayed completely on topic throughout all the posts on our forums - but where would the fun in that be :lmfao:

[noevra]

Well on topic:
my feelings is that the rules are yust B*ll Sh*t. If there are people that get offended in the guild bye name calling, they should putt guildchat off. because the content there is sometimes worse then here. (before the we went to this forum i meen, were we weren't silenst.)

If people outsite our guild take offence of what we put here, we should make our own forum, ore they souldn't be allowed to get to read it. Why the sould in the first place i dont realy see.

Besites that. its al little oftoppic. but not that long ago optical made a sacastic post about priest. I in my mind that it whas funny. but there whas a small discusion going on. and bastet killed that. because of no class winning. i think this is bad. verry bad even. If admins ganne delete ore edit post. Then all members of the forum are curios what happent and you blow up the stuf like it whas realy ment.
and even if it whas realy ment. why not have a discusion about it? if some one can make me play my class better ore have some good sugestions, and making that offius bye posting a whinn post i can give some feedback, ore acsplain it. ore i can yust ignor it. ore learn from it. its all what I want to do with it. and if admins ganne delete this why do we have a forum in the first place? in that cass i could better yust go and stop posting here.

so well geas this is my last post for a ling time here. atleast if im not needed to post here. no more spamming bye my side :-) mebay that is yust a good thing :huh:

Greet noevra

[Bob]

On topic: Concerning rules about cursing, linking to porn (or porn related stuff), I am totally fine with that.  I have no problem seing the word tango, when I actually wrote fu**.  People know what it means anyhow, so they get my point.  It's just some simple rules which we hace to follow - no biggie at all!

Originally posted by noevra@Mar 20 2006, 12:33 PM
Besites that. its al little oftoppic. but not that long ago optical made a sacastic post about priest. I in my mind that it whas funny. but there whas a small discusion going on. and bastet killed that. because of no class winning. i think this is bad. verry bad even.

[post=118114]Quoted post[/post]

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This I think is a much bigger concern.  The thread you are reffering to Noevra, is this one.  I posted a few comments there which you can read, and I was also hoping for some "official" reply from the officers (and perhaps some kind of appology or something?), but I haven't seen anything like it.  Perhaps some of the officers would like to comment on the matter?

[TeaLeaf]

Several points here so I'll try to cover some in one post.

First off, this is not a big issue.  If you think about it you'll find that typing a correctly worded post actually takes more time than just firing off an expletive.  In my book that's good news because it means that 90% more pople will have thought about their post before hitting the submit button - and that can only improve the quality of the forums.  The 'add quality' bit is in the forum acceptable use policy as has already been pointed out.  If you struggle to express yourself without swearing then maybe you ought not to post and spend the time saved on improving your written language skills?

Secondly, it saddens me that the reaction to the original problem was 'well he shouldn't have been here'.  We have younger members in the Guild, many have children who will creep up behind Dad/Mum and see what is typed on the screen, hear what is said or read what is typed. Yes you could apply filters to this, but they are not perfect and surely the answer is simply to moderate your own profanity?   If you feel the need to exercise your democratic right to swear then go set up a a special 'cuss hole' on IRC and cuss away to your heart's content.  Nobody will be there to read it mind you.  If the whole forums were like the 'supported' posts then it would make for impossible reading and would descend into utter chaos.

Re Bob's point:  It is a common misconception that free speech is free.  It isn't.  You can go debate that point if you want, but it comes with an attached basic assumption that the people exercising that right are sufficiently mature and aware of their responsibilities to others.  Some aren't, hence we have forum rules.  

There are also legal issues to consider.  Law varies from country to country, but the wonder fo the modern internet is that you get sued in the country of complaint, not where the forum is necessarily hosted.  So we have to be careful as the board owners and moderators are potentially in law responsible for the content.  Just remember, if you really annoy someone then it could be a SoG member who is the complainer so having a special section for cussing really wouldn't work as we would have to ban everyone from it!

Somebody has to make a call over post quality and that is why the forums have Moderators - in this case it was a SoG Officer who was the Moderator.      The post in question might have been intended as a joke, but it certainly was not taken that way by a number of people and its content was damaging the Guild morale and contrary to the tolerance the Officers had specifically asked for recently with regard to healers, hence it was removed and a reminder was posted to say why.  I don't think that's hard to understand and it is certainly not something people should get upset about.

Whether the forum costs or not was also raised during this discussion and the comment was made that we should not go for the 'free' solution where it required you to sell your literary soul by having a boundary enforced.  Yes this forum costs SoG less than the one we used to use, but go and pick any SoG Officer and ask them if they have found the day to day running of the Guild, it's raids, it's raid members, the applications, member gripes and the administration of Guild affairs easier.  I do nto believe you will find a single Officer who would not completely support the move irrespective of cost.  Some people who have posted have no idea how much work goes into running a Guild behind the scenes - the Officers put many long hours into making the week run smoothly and this forum is a part of that process.

Looking at what I have written now it seems like a hugely verbose reply, for which I apologise, but the swearing in this Guild is a problem and everyone here needs to face it.  When I first joined SoG it was not like it is today and we all have a shared responsibility to both admit it and to deal with it.  Free speech yes, but it comes with some strings.  If someone doesn;t keep the strings taut then you'll eventually get the string wrapped around your neck and strangle yourself.

TL.

[sitha]

There are two seperate issues here. One is the moderation of posts because of excessive use of swearing, porn links etc. Which I'm fine with.

The other is the moderation of a post because some people might be upset by what it is written. Not because the content is illegal, offensive etc. But because the author think you are doing a bad job. Yes I know Optical was joking, but that's not the point. If people aren't satisfied with healers it should be brought up so we can discuss it. Removing the post doesn't only remove the complaint, which everyone know was posted anyways. It also strips the healers of a way to respond to it.

People shouldn't stop complaining about healing because they are told to, but because they have a better understanding of how things work and that healers are actually doing all they can to keep everyone up.

In my opinion the forums is the ideal place to discuss this. People have here an opportunity to get their point through without being interrupted all the time.

We should be able to have a discussion like this like mature people without it affecting the general morale of the guild.

[Bob]

I was going to wait until I came back from work to give a long answer to your post TL, but Sitha seemed to give it for me.  So I just sign that, and say that I totally agree with all he just said, both about the moderation due to swearing, and the moderation due to "wrong" oppinions

[Neff]

Well freedom of speach is one thing, but we need to adapt to the rules of this forum, its easy as that . Some people are offended , but its not that many that actually has problems with not being able to swearing, is it really that big of a deal?

[Sinap]

My overall opinion is that if its something like what Optical said, a joke about priest healing, it should be left. Why remove it from a forum? Fair enough, if Optical posted some TANGO animal porn or some crap then remove it, please, but when its someones opinion on a topic, or something not totally disgusting/wrong then leave it.

[TeaLeaf]

My comments were not meant to support jokes being removed, but they were to support the decision of an officer acting as a moderator who thought it was not a joke.  Most things (even the banal) are left well alone in these forums and long may that continue, but where other people also do not think it a joke and given then already tense nature of healer criticism recently then it is sometimes acceptable and sensible not to leave a lighted match next to the pool of oil.  I tend to post a comment at the end of a thread and then use the 'close thread' option where I think a thread is getting out of line, other moderators will do the things they believe appropriate.  But everyone is adjusting and learning, so let's give everyone some time to adjust.

TL.

[Bob]

Originally posted by TeaLeaf+Mar 20 2006, 05:21 PM-->

QUOTE(TeaLeaf @ Mar 20 2006, 05:21 PM)

My comments were not meant to support jokes being removed

[post=118172]Quoted post[/post]

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This I understand very well, and I did not take it that way either

Originally posted by TeaLeaf@Mar 20 2006, 05:21 PM
but they were to support the decision of an officer acting as a moderator who thought it was not a joke

This part I don't "understand" quite as well (I understand perfectly what you literary say, but I very much disagree with it).
It seems now that in the situation that has risen, instead of trying to clean up things and perhaps admit that a small mistake (what I personally think was a mistake) has been made, you seem to try the best you can to twist and tweak what has been said many times before about not offending people and create a negative tension.

Originally posted by TeaLeaf@Mar 20 2006, 05:21 PM
Most things (even the banal) are left well alone in these forums and long may that continue

This is very much appreciated, and for that you should have credit :clap:

Originally posted by TeaLeaf@Mar 20 2006, 05:21 PM
but where other people also do not think it a joke and given then already tense nature of healer criticism recently then it is sometimes acceptable and sensible not to leave a lighted match next to the pool of oil

First of all, wether it was a joke or not, is of no importance to this subject.
Secondly, I try really hard (I really do, believe me on that) to understand why what was said is such a bad thing(and I read it before it got deleted), but I just can't.  Now I only raid 2 of 3 nights due to RL stuff, so I might have missed out on something, but I can't say that I have noticed anything to this so called "tense nature of healer crisicism" (and just to remind you, I am a healer myself).  I'm not shure what more to say to try and make you see this from my point of view, so I'll just quote what Sitha so elegant said earlier, which I think sums it up pretty well:

Originally posted by Sitha@Mar 20 2006, 04:15 PM
Removing the post doesn't only remove the complaint, which everyone know was posted anyways. It also strips the healers of a way to respond to it.

People shouldn't stop complaining about healing because they are told to, but because they have a better understanding of how things work and that healers are actually doing all they can to keep everyone up.

And just to have said it: if people feel like throwing shit at my healing capabilities, I can take it.  First of all, because I know I'm doing as good a job as I possibly can (which I think in total is pretty good), and secondly, because sometimes I might actually learn a new trick that can help me improve myself too, cause sometime people can make positive criticism as well

Originally posted by TeaLeaf@Mar 20 2006, 05:21 PM
I tend to post a comment at the end of a thread and then use the 'close thread' option where I think a thread is getting out of line, other moderators will do the things they believe appropriate.

What you do here TL, is a very good thing, and I actually think all the moderators should have this as a rule whenever they edit or remove some content.  Not necessarily close the thread, but at least submit a (good) explanation of why the moderation was performed.
First of all because you should always be able to "defend" your decision to do such a thing when it is done, and secondly, doing this might actually prevent people from getting pissed because of it.