DKP hoarding Vs Kit hoarding

[Umbra]

Actually I only mentioned it BECAUSE subsequent additional rules were added, the 'you gotta have 4 tier 1 before you can have tier 2' bit. Thus you are already calculating the 'merits' associated etc.

If it was purely DKP as mentioned above then I wouldn't have said anything.

how I see it is that dkp hoarding reduces the transient effectiveness of raid because people are not upgrading kit when they really should be (tier 1), even if there is better kit out there that they want and have a chance at (tier 2).

But, taking kit that's worse than what you have (and thus probably won't use), leads to some people not upgrading, and so: reducing transient effectiveness of the raid.

Yes everyone will get their turn of course, so you're saying everyone will eventually get all the kit they want after soem unknown time, fine, but if this were truly an important statement then the dkp hoarding rule wouldn't exist.

Of course, there are also class merits associated with an item, where something is more likely to go to someone if they will use it more effectively in a raid (see the similarity yet?).

again i'm just looking at opinions, cos i'm bored at work and think too much but here's how i see it.

a) pure dkp - no problem

or

B) if you start looking at effectiveness to raid due to items (dkp hoard rule) - should consider the other item distribution effects on raid effectiveness.

Just seems detrimental to, not only introduce a rule where you can't upgrade to tier 2 'til you have tier 1, but at the same time say nothing about people who have tier 2 from taking tier 1 and preventing the aforementioned people from even getting the tier 1.

P.S. how long a run takes is irrelevant  next to 'getting it right'

[Umbra]

As an aside,

If I went on an RG2 run now, I could easily take both might bracers and shoulders if they dropped (DKP) , but I'd be so ashamed of myself and rightly so.

Take what you want when you will, and I won't say a word apart from grats , you've have worked for it and got the dkp...

The simple and practical way forward is to do what we do: spend your DKP when it is your turn and if you want the item.

It's down to the individual how they spend their DKP, if we start assessing the relative merits of an upgrade for one person over the upgrade for the other 5 in class then our fastet MC clearance will become 3 days and not 3 hours.

oh wait! isn't that the argument I used in favour of letting alts raid?

please! is it pure dkp or are there rules? half and half is just rude

[TeaLeaf]

Alts is a different issue altogether, the fact that DKP is used in arguments in other areas should not preclude it being involved as part of this discussion - a discussion about 'downgrades' (which is a neatly presumptuous title).

Umbra, you sound upset by this, but this is not the intent.  If you want rules they can be issued and enforced, but helpful discussion is more positive. I was trying to add helpful discussion, sorry if it was received in that way.

TL.

[Umbra]

I'm not upset , I know the title is a little derogatory but I couldn't think of anything that came closer, the tiers are not merely different, with the exception of a stat or 2 (usually magic resistances) the T2 is better than T1. please read this in context rather than an all encompassing statement

The alts issue is not so far removed as people want to believe, my statement was let ppl spend the dkp they have earned on what they want if they can use it. Which seems to be what you said, but never mind we shall forget about that argument.

I merely noticed that an aspect of misuse (opinon) was being dealt with and thought to bring to general attention another one.

basically dkp hoard rule = limiting what people can spend their dkp on depending on what kit they already have.

my idea = limiting what people can spend their dkp on depending on what kit they already have.

It would be very nice if people considered what others had and need etc but there seem to be 2 reactions to such cases
1) I'll pass on item x because the aspect I'm after is only a small upgrade and I know there are people to whom this is christmas. (consideration).
2) I'll take item x because I don't currently have it and it has a stat I want. (slightly less consideration).

Now I know we have a number of uber elite tanks, and i respect that, but there are a few cases in BWL for example where ALL warriors get used. For those who remember a couple of wipes at 1% of mob hp. Just think how much difference it might have made if the non prot tanks had the nice big upgrade for that extra armour AND defense AND fire res, even if this was at the expense of say 10 FR from one of the MTs who are around 300FR at the moment. But again, I'm thinking of the raid rather than the individual.

As I said,
I will say grats to whoever gets something, you've earned it.
I will respect those who show consideration and thought, you've earned it.

[Nefertem]

Its a though matter, but I would say that it shouldn't be a necessity to make more rules.. If people got enough DKP to get an item, ofc they should have the choice of taking it or not, no matter if they have a better item or not.. People should be reasonable enough to consider the fact that someone else might need it more..

But as umbra said, Ill gratz em if the get an item, they've erned it, and I will respect those who show consideration and thought, they've earned it.  

[Gorion]

Originally posted by Umbra@Apr 5 2006, 01:20 PM
To quote (ish) Gorion from the last raid 'The fire debuff is nothing when you have around 300+FR' so then the FR argument out of the window (i'm on about 210 unbuffed btw) and every other stat is worse.

actually the fr argument aint of the window.. for me to get 300+ fr i use every single bit of fr kit, from di items(even the legplates) to trinkets, rings and amulet and might items, and some i already have the wrath counterparts

now i know this topic is particulary based on the might bracers.. now i know you wont like this, but i passed the might bracers once already(and rexon took them), i dont really intend to pass them again, even if i have the wrath ones.

now before the sh it hits the fan you should know that the best possible tank gear is the mixing of both t1 and t2, why? the bonuses. t2 bonuses suck imo, but the stats and the total armor and def are better, but t1 has some really good bonuses, like the +30 block, and extra rage generation which is better than the full set bonus of wrath, also note that both bracers dont have any +def or parry/block/dodge bonuses so its the ideal item to replace with might (yes youde be loosing some stats, but 30+ block outweights 4 stamina)

now you might see me as a total ar se face after this, but you should remember that ide never take any dps warr item, unless none of those warriors want them.  i wanted to take onslaught girdle last time.. but since you wanted it i didnt, i could have taken that blade too but i didnt. items that improve my tanking have a total priority, even if those other items would really help me whilst grinding(although i dont do much of it) and right now, the bracers of might will improve my tanking.


pretty long post, some will get mad, some will agree, but it had to be said, i hope you understand

[TeaLeaf]

No madness here G, you made some well-reasoned points.

TL.

[Umbra]

The points make sense, Wasn't getting mad like i said, just wanted to hear why anyone would do it.

of course, as the bracers is the only T1 peice you don't have, surely you already have all the set bonuses apart from the, what is it, +threat from sunder?

I'm sure not going to flame anyone, as I said before, you've earned it, it's cool.

Difference between dps kit ofc is that sometimes the dps warrs have to tank, in which case having some tanking kit is nice, but I haven't seen a prot tank expected to do dps (I was between 400 and 600dps in BWL on my ctmod meter). So while you don;t really have as much use for dps gear as you're never expected to do dps, we ARE relatively often used to tank (domo, garr, Vael, Firemaw, BWL mobs).

If you want a couple of uber uber tanks, then great, you're on track.  If you want alot of very good tanks (other specs) then you're boned

P.S. TL, feel free to change the topic title to 'DKP hoarding Vs Kit hoarding'

[StrontiumDog]

I can see Umbra's point of view, i mean I have been waiting on a decent 1 hand or 2 hand weapon for ages  which in turn would up my damage output and I know people have more than one such weapon, however I am not bitter about and will wait for 'my time'.

[Gorion]

of course, as the bracers is the only T1 peice you don't have, surely you already have all the set bonuses apart from the, what is it, +threat from sunder?

yep thats right.. but most of the wrath gear is better +def/parry/block wise, so the cheapest way out is the bracers, cos they dont have any of those stats

[Ragnarh]

Hey!
I get ressed on Vael fights for the sole purpos of adding  my MIGHTY DPS.
Tho I am prot spec I don't complain of this , I like to  add my small executes.

am looking into dualweald tanking , sounds fun.

[Sheperdbook]

Hey glad someone bought all this up, I've been considering it as of late!

The way I'm seeing it I think there is a definite bonus in bidding for a lower tier armour piece if someone wants to build up an effective set of resistant armour. However it is obvious that it would benefit a non-epic player more (they'd get the resistance and the stats bonuses) and thus contribute to the raid group more as a whole.

It is ultimately a choice of personal discretion, putting rules either way is going to biast the manner in which players are entitled to spend their dkp (they've earnt those points and deserve to bid on what they like). If one starts messing around saying you can't bid on x,y,z when the player can realistically use x,y,z and has the most dkp it will ultimately upset the loyalty syndrome that dkp in effect promotes.

So anyways to clear up my personal choice, given that I'm now the proud owner of a Judgement Crown is I won't be bidding on a Lawbringer Helm until all RG2 pallies (who contribute regularly) have a good epic helm. Even though it would be to my benefit to have the helm for Ragnaros with that extra FR as I have barely 120FR currently.

Furthermore those who are bidding in RG2 obviously must not be members of RG1 (as that would get quite silly), I realise there's an issue of old members having dkp from old raids and using it to buy things in RG2 sessions. Obviously I'm one of them. Now I will advocate my decision there, first off I earnt those dkp, second I'm not a member of RG1 so I can't spend them there and third off I actually earnt those points back in the early days when we spent longer earning fewer points (took us a while to down bosses the very first time) actually I have spent more hours in MC than many members of RG1 for instance.

Anyways I think imposing rules is not going to have a great effect, dkp effectively just allows those who put in more time to have first dibs on an item, if you're going to be silly and stack up loads of dkp just to get one item instead of improving your character as a whole that's your choice, and well, I could tell you you're silly but no point really.

Now I've had one of my prolonged rants I'll come to the final line, the system currently works, it's just up to everybody to be sensible and not myopic and selfish.

Oh and my sincere apologies to RG2 pallies for nicking all those items, don't worry 2 more and we'll all be quits hehe! (blame those RG1 peeps, not me!!!!)


Sheperdbook
lvl 60 Holy Paladin
"The Holy Flasher"