Attendance Levels

TeaLeaf · May 12, 2006, 07:38:22 AM

First up, I'm posting this as a member not an Officer, so that everyone can have a positive discussion about this issue. The way I see it:

I play WoW to raid. I want to raid and to progress through MC>BWL>AQ40>Naxx etc, but I know this is not everybody's cup of tea
The Guild is set up to allow people to raid or not to raid, it is the member's choice which class of membership they apply for.
Attendance is at apalling lows at the moment and we're not even raiding, let alone progressing.
Some people might have exams at the moment - but we are short of more people than have posted or advised us of a temporary period of absence.
Some people might have done their time in WoW and want to move on - but I don't see that many leaving, so why aren't they there at the raids?
We do not have the numbers posting in the Holiday or Absence thread that are failing to turn up to raids. We don't know where some of these people are at the moment.
We have one class in particular who never sign up for AQ/ZG and have a combined RG1/RG2 Guild-worst attendance record.
The Officers have committed not to recruit huge numbers unless there is a serious need for more bodies.
As far as I can see we're pretty much at the point of serious need for more bodies.

Yes there are things like exams on at the moment, but we are missing more people than have posted in the Holiday/Absence thread (it's not fair to expect an Officer to trawl around the forums to find your specific holiday/absence comment).

If we do not know where people are then we cannot plan the success of our raids.

If we fail to plan then we are planning to fail in our raids.

To enable us to plan we need stable attendance numbers which we currently do not have.

To enable us to plan we need more bodies.

If we get more bodies to enable us to fill raids to allow raid planning and raid success then we'll really annoy some members who then find the raid full.

In addition to potentially more bodes, would a sign up system confirm the numbers concerned - do others think that a 40 person sign up system would be detrimental or positive? What are the concerns about such a system and who would you alleviate those concerns (think particularly about over-subscribed classes).

What's the best route forward? Recruit because we know we have a shortage? Monitor (via a signup system) to confirm the specific shortage to allow a more sensible recruitment decision? Stop raiding until the 'exam period' is over (but then there's no guarantee people would be back in any case). Other options?

The above is just some ramblings over breakfast, but they will hopefully start some debate because right now, after allowing for known absences, we have a serious attendance problem which we should not have given the number of members we have.

TL.

Bastet · May 12, 2006, 07:49:59 AM

I agree 100%

atm there are 3 options:
we recruit more ppl
we make a attendance system
we stop raiding alltogether untill fall

well i dont know about you guys, but option 2 sounds the best idea by far...

TeaLeaf · May 12, 2006, 08:48:05 AM

Interesting, 17 views so far and only one response.

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!

TL.

Carr0t · May 12, 2006, 09:17:03 AM

My personal opinion (I know i'm currently only about level 7, so it'll be a looooong time before i'm ready to raid):

I've not raided before. Given the seriousness with which SoG trats raiding i'd be kinda scared to raid with you guys, in case I messed something up due to being a newb at it. On top of that, RL concerns mean I wouldn't have *time* to raid 2 or 3 days a week, even though I would want to. The free time I have available to play WoW is currently about 2 to 3 hours, 2 or 3 days a week, if i'm *lucky* (and I don't have exams). I might be able to manage to join a raid once a month or so. Is there any space for people like me to raid in SoG, or would I have to be one of the non-raiding members because i *can't* commit to the kind of schedule RG1 and RG2 demand?

Bastet · May 12, 2006, 09:22:37 AM

We will see that once you actualy make level 60

This is mainly something that has to be sorted like short therm (preferably yesterday actualy)

i am asming that me and TL arent the only ones disgruntled about the current lack of attendance en thus raiding. But we can only do so much w/o ppl turning up.....

so ppl gib more feedback!

TeaLeaf · May 12, 2006, 09:24:28 AM

Guardian members - have to raid a certain % of all raids
Defender members - can raid but do not *have* to raid
Soldier members - may not raid (but in practice recently have been called in to fill in where Defenders have been no shows).

So yes you could raid, under the Defender membership ideally.

The problem at the moment is that for RG2 the Defenders ability to 'not have to raid' is killing attendance. The problem for RG1 is that there is a core of people gone AWOL, some for known reasons, others just without reason.

We can give RG1 more surety to raid by demoting and promoting as appropriate dependent on attendance. This will upset some and please others. But it will get RG1 raiding with 40 in the group and more in the queue.

We can give RG2 more surety to raid with good class balance by recruiting more people. This will upset those who fail to get into any specific raid and is something I would like to avoid, but tbh if we can't get the attendance any other way then what else should we do?

And before anyone comes back and says 'we told you there were exams and we'd be AFK for the next two months' I should pose the question: "If someone is going to be away for two months then shoudl they retain their Guardian slot when the raid (and those still attending) is struggling with poor attendance?". What's fair here? Who's interests come first? How much do we upset people or please people?

Difficult questions, tougher decisions, but someone has to make them and I'm asking you for feedback so that we can debate the options and then allow the Officers to come to conclusions.

I hope conclusions are reached damn quickly, because I for one and really peeved about the situation at the moment and do not want it to continue.

TL.

lunares · May 12, 2006, 09:28:25 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@May 12 2006, 07:38 AM
If we get more bodies to enable us to fill raids to allow raid planning and raid success then we'll really annoy some members who then find the raid full.

In addition to potentially more bodes, would a sign up system confirm the numbers concerned - do others think that a 40 person sign up system would be detrimental or positive? What are the concerns about such a system and who would you alleviate those concerns (think particularly about over-subscribed classes).

What's the best route forward? Recruit because we know we have a shortage? Monitor (via a signup system) to confirm the specific shortage to allow a more sensible recruitment decision? Stop raiding until the 'exam period' is over (but then there's no guarantee people would be back in any case). Other options?

TL.
[post=126341]Quoted post[/post]
[/b]

Here is my 2 cents
I think you should try a signup system it worked nicely for the 20 (we will stay using it after testing and menedil is tweaking it now so it suits us better). I think it would also work for a 40 man raid. And to over subscribtion what you can do is give the ppl who could not join the raid day 1, give them priority to the next raid after the reset. You allways will have ppl getting angry then but at least its more fair then who types the fastest. About recruiting, thats a hard 1 cause atm i think we rly should recruit more, however then after ppl exams are over you get the same what happened to the priests( but this cannot continue imo) so personally i say recruita few ppl of some classes(the ones we allways seem to lack) and get the signup system going then recuit more to fill the gaps.
You cannot please all ppl but then again i think you know that better then anyone here. Keep the good work up

Lunares

sheepy · May 12, 2006, 09:28:27 AM

I know that im not a full raiding member but my 2c

Attendance monitoring may be a good idea, then maybe some moving around between RG1 and RG2 if needed.

I don't see anyone being happy with stopping the raiding untill fall, maybe combining RG1 and RG2 for one nite a week as a trial?

??

Also possible small scale recruitment in the "problem class"

Akall · May 12, 2006, 09:36:56 AM

I think that a signup system would be the best idea at least officers could monitor attendance, and, in case of an insufficient number of partecipants, something else could be set up.

Knabbel · May 12, 2006, 09:55:15 AM

How about a sginup system for open spots. That way you don't have to promote/ demote people. When guardians are in a raid and there are 10 spaces left then get people from the signup system (the one for open spaces). As I'm a RG2 member I would love to get into BWL and I think more people of RG2 wants to. When all signup open spots are taken and still people needed, try the guild chat. If then still no succes you need to be aware that you can get a certain amount of people for a certain amount of effort. You can put on another signup system for non-guild member etc etc and sure you will get your raid full then, but there is a point in time that you will not get a full raid for a certain amount of effort. It's like the 80- 20 rule. 80% of members for 20% of time spent acquiring them. The last 20% will take a lot more time (80% of time). And there is a point that you need to realize that "this" day there will be no raid due to , lag, dc, vacations, exames, rl matters etc.....

I'm pretty happy with the 20man signup systems and perhaps it will work for 40man to, as long as you prioriteis them, guardians, defender, soldiers....

just my 2 euro cents.....

And Luna....I'm there tonight!!!

lunares · May 12, 2006, 10:03:49 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by Knabbel@May 12 2006, 09:55 AM
And there is a point that you need to realize that "this" day there will be no raid due to , lag, dc, vacations, exames, rl matters etc.....

[post=126374]Quoted post[/post]
[/b]

This is true. But that would be only 1 day then in a long period of time if i understood your post correct. But whats happenning atm is no raids in a long time.
Thats a big difference and the ppl who are attending allways get frustrated by it. If it happens once then there is np and ppl do not like it but also do not care too much. Two times in a row is annoying and whats happening now is (the right words dont come to mind). Another thing is with BWL thats its more gear dependant then MC (try a green geared tank at broodlord :narnar: ). So getting a lot of`RG 2ppl to help is good but for RG1 its a step back gearwise. (personally i am happy with the help we get from RG2 if its needed).

Lunares

Bob · May 12, 2006, 10:06:20 AM

QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf+May 12 2006, 08:48 AM-->
QUOTE(TeaLeaf @ May 12 2006, 08:48 AM)
Interesting, 17 views so far and only one response.

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!

TL.
[post=126355]Quoted post[/post]
[/b]

First of all, the reason why I was noted with a "view" on this topic without making a reply, was that I just skipped by it to read 2 minutes before I entered my oral exam (which bdw went good - got an A

). I think it's not hard to understand that not all have the opportunity to answer something the minute they see it! I also often feel that I actually need a bit of time to think through a matter before I write something about it.

QuoteOriginally posted by TeaLeaf@May 12 2006, 07:38 AM
Yes there are things like exams on at the moment, but we are missing more people than have posted in the Holiday/Absence thread
[post=126341]Quoted post[/post]
[/b]

Even though not all has posted that they are busy with exams these days, I think there are quite a few who are. Even though it's a decent thing to do to let us know if you can't show up (at least for RG1 members), I can't blame people for not. It's both because of this period is busy enough as it is with all that's going on, and that makes it easy to forget things like this. The second thing I have a bit hard expressing what I mean, but I'll say a bit more about that if you see what I write under Carr0t's quote

QuoteOriginally posted by Bastet@May 12 2006, 07:49 AM
atm there are 3 options:
we recruit more ppl
we make a attendance system
we stop raiding alltogether untill fall
[post=126343]Quoted post[/post]
[/b]

we recruit more ppl - nope, not a good idea at all! You all know why we are short on people now, and recruiting more will just lead to a major overpopulation when people are done with exams and stuff. Have patient!
we make a attendance system - well, it might be a temporary sollution untill things get back to normal, but in the long run, I think we're better of with the raiding system we have now

we stop raiding alltogether untill fall - stopping untill fall is berhaps a bit too much, but I actually thing it wouldn't be a bad idea to perhaps stop raiding untill say the end of May. Alternativly we could stop one of the raid groups, and just settle with the fact that we can only have one group raiding this month.