Is it fair?

[Greatdanes]

This is in some kind a follow-up on the (real) reason of the fight between some ppl in RG2 as I see it.

Today a member of RG2 can make so more DKP in BWL in conditions to a RG2 MC raid at he can get way ahead his class members in DKP and getting gear. Some ppl think that’s not totality fair because many ppl wants to help out in BWL and try something new(and getting gear) but the way the invite goes today for RG2 members some are not getting the chance(because of different reason).

Why not make a signup system like the one used for ZG/AQ so ppl from RG2 who wants to help on a raid in BWL can signup on a date where they are able to help out and if RG1 need to fill up, there is a list to take from.
To make it totality fair it could rotate between ppl(in class) who has signup so it’s not necessary to be the first to signup on the list. I know this will unfortunate give the officers more work because they need to keep tracking on who was in last time but it will give all a fair chance to help out.

I also know at the officers has said this is just a temporary situation because of some ppl are doing examination at the moment and it will soon not be necessary to use RG2 ppl in BWL.
But if the unthinkable happen and not enough ppl from RG1 turn up to a raid in the future, you have this system to get a full raid.

This is just my proposal to the subject.

[Bastet]

We are looking at some signup system for the raids, but there are some problems, i know most classes want to go to BWL, but there is only so many places in a raid. and there is quite a bit of stuff we are currently doing. But we hope to get it done realsoonish near you

[opticalrush]

Originally posted by Bastet@May 19 2006, 07:56 AM
We are looking at some signup system for the raids, but there are some problems

does that count for RG1 ?

[Bastet]

yes, that would be counting for all our raids and both groups

[opticalrush]

1 thing that sucks ! it doesnt help to get people showing up

[mirianna]

Whilst the RG1 member would raid with RG2 that week, they would earn DKP in line with the the normal RG1 raid (i.e. they will not lose DKP by volunteering to go with RG2).
...
The RG2 member joining RG1's raid would gain at the same rate as RG2 progresses that week, thus not giving them an infair DKP advantage over RG2 members.
As normal, RG2 members will be eligible to spend their DKP on items dropping in the RG1 raid. ...

This is from the thread in the raiding section about the flexibility of the two raid groups..

as far as I see it there is no way a RG2 member can get more DKP than the rest of RG2, unless these rules have not been used..

so the only consern would then be that some of RG2 can get BWL drops before the rest of RG2.. but that is actually good.. since if we look at it in the perspective that if a RG2 member can get some loot in BWL it's because RG1 ppl don't want it, seeing as RG1 ppl statisticly have alot more DKP than those of us in RG2.. and thus we give out an item to someone would needs it and can use it to further RG2's progress instead of DE'ing it..

[Nefrion]

This rule is being used on the swap between a RG1 member and a RG2 member to prevent too many items being disenchanted in RG1 raids.

This does not work when RG2 members join RG1 BWL. There RG2 members follow the same rules for DKP as RG1 members. In that way the few "lucky" from RG2 that attends BWL on a regular basis will earn fairly more DKP than the other RG2 members.

[Padding]

This does not work when RG2 members join RG1 BWL. There RG2 members follow the same rules for DKP as RG1 members. In that way the few "lucky" from RG2 that attends BWL on a regular basis will earn fairly more DKP than the other RG2 members.

Well, yes and no. RG1 is missing members for the raid, the ones that are online gets a spot, so that does work very good.

DKP wise they get ahead of the rest, yes, but they also give their time and effort the raid and therefore its natural that their DKP is higher.

The officers are currently in discussion about the whole DKP system, since its not working as we intended from the start, and that WILL be revised... HOWEVER until we have the exact system we want to use for the future, we are gonna have to stick with the system we have in place.

[Siffredi]

Yes, just this is an issue for RG2 members. I believe if a RG2 member should join BWL on sundays, they should not get any DKP for it or get reduced DKP for this, because one boss in BWL is like 2-3 bosses in MC. This is hard for other members in RG2 to get thier loot because the ones allways joining RG1 for BWL allways get thier Phat DKP up...

Thats my suggention to this... I think it is a good idea that some RG2 members join for the BWL run, because its great experience, however still think this should be done without getting the big DKP bonus.

this post was made before i saw Paddings post....

[Asmoden]

The problem i see in it is.
Example:
I have been saving my dkp for the perditions blade, always making sure i would be ahead of other rogues. That means i have passed on a lot of Nightslayer pieces wich other people (X) now has gotten. I attend all our MC raids, from start to end. Then one day, while starting in MC, i realise that X has been to a BWL raid, and in that raid he got 88 dkp (to croma). That means, even tho i have saved and joined all raids, X still gets the perditions blade, because he joined something i could not join(couldent be there or wasent one of the lucky few), and actualy shouldent join.

I think it is great that RG2's can join the BWL. I for one would really like to try getting in there sometime. I have been unlucky so far to join the raids, and the one i joined got called because of lag, the other got called when i arrived to the zone, and i had to run back. The problem is that often it is the same people that get to join BWL. This ofcourse gives you an idea of how well the person playes, and you do have someone who has tried it before/know some of the tactics. But, it really is an unfair atvantage for the rest of RG2 who can, but really want to, join.

My suggestion would be either an RG2 joining a BWL raid should get NO dkp at all.

Or the RG2 member should get something more suitable for RG2. Like what they got from last MC.


My biggest reason for wanting to get into a BWL raid is the experiance. I have yet not been in the instance, and i would really like to try that. Also id like to experience raiding with RG1, and see what it is like there.. Maby learn something.

The suggestion with 0 dkp would ensure you that only people who want to play join the raid. Ofcourse there is the possibility that you wont get the people, but when you arent missing more than max 10 at one point, i dont think that is an option.. Ofcourse they would still be able to get loot if they want to pay for it.

The more suitable suggestion would make it a bit more fair for all parties.
When i go to a MC raid, i get 6-8dkp pr. boss i help down.  If i would join a BWL raid and helt down just one boss, i would get 25... That is fair for the RG1, because they are there, they use the dkp and all that. But it really is not fair for the rest of RG2 when, no matter what we do, there are always some who are gonna be higher than us.
As said before
BWL raid 88 dkp (to croma).
While MC raid 58 dkp (to sulfuron).
We have no chance to keep up with that..

This is not a flame or anything (tho the post has gotten pretty long o.O) so please dont take it that way. I just want the officers to know how it feels like for us RG2 left behind.
(This is not namecalling, just an example of dkp/bwl)
Aloha has, before last night, attended one MC run. Other than that he has joined 2 BWL runs. Taking him (when he joined last night) to 280.00 dkp. That means he would easily be able to get 2 drops before i had any chance, and also made him the dkp leader (in rogues).  That means, from the 92 he got from the last MC raid, he jumped 188 in dkp.. from not helping us. We fight hard to get through MC, and to get the people generaly geared up to prepare us for the big fights. But when someone suddenly gets all the loot. It is not just unfair to us, it also does not benefit the raid as a whole.

I think im gonna have to stop now. I hope my posts makes some sense, as i really dont have the energi to read it though.. please tell me that the officers will consider this?

-Asmoden signing out.

EDIT: I also started writing before Padding :-) Just for a note

[Padding]

please tell me that the officers will consider this?

I already stated that in a previous post. But be advised that its not gonna be easy to devise the new DKP system, so give us TIME.

[Marduk]

Think about it the other way for once
if a RG2 player gets loot from bwl, wich will happen some day cos all the rg1 people pass on an item that might have dropped a lot he has to spend 200 dkp wich is A LOT more then mc items so he will go down in dkp FAST

plus he spends the extra time and efford in an extra raid, wich sometimes people get invited to, yes you could see that as lucky, but we do need the person we dont do it to pick on others ...

just my 2 cents

[Asmoden]

Originally posted by Padding@May 19 2006, 12:11 PM
I already stated that in a previous post. But be advised that its not gonna be easy to devise the new DKP system, so give us TIME.

[post=127823]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

Yea, please note that i did not see you post that you were working on it until i was finish writing my own :-)

I am sure the officers are doing some great work, and i know it is really hard and time consuming.

How about for the meantime, when missing people for BWL, try to get some of those who havent joined before? It would make it a bit more fair for RG2. You already have as a requirement that we have read the tactics, so we know a bit about it.

Sorry for the huge post btw.. dident know it would be so long ;p

[mirianna]

I would point out that the invites goes out to everyone..(atleast class wise)

and why should you get less for than the rest of the ppl in the raid for doing the same job?

[Bastet]

sigh, all this bitching and complaining about dkp, how about i just go over to the DKP and zero the DKP of any ppl that are complaining in this thread?

I mean, comon, i am like miles ahead of all other rogues in the guild (and i got nearly every item a rogue can get as first, or as one of the first 3 rogues) and i never heard menedil complain about it. You must consider that ppl might not want every item that drops, or the might have it allready.

So if i where to get get bloodfang chestpiece now, i doubt any1 lose any sleep over it, since they will be able to get it next time.

As for RG1 DKP BWL, would any of you help us if you got nothing for it except repair bills?

Now granted, the current system for inviting RG2 members isnt too good, ill admit that right away. Note though that the current system doesnt favor any1, its the guy/girl that whispers first gets in.