New Raiding Rules

[Lucian]

I'm blind you fools I have ultra thick glasses on...

[saori]

• Only One item per raid is allowed to be taken by the same person, If there is an unwanted item, someone who already looted something may roll again.

[/LIST]I have a concern about this rule in the strict way of how the RANDOM drops are holded within it.
 
Since raiders are only allowed to loot once per raid night (exceptions handled when the item is no wanted by anybody, so a person that had already looted can loot again) we are taking into the same rule the RANDOMS that usualy drop from trash mobs.
 
The loot once per night system it's ok for planning an escalated gearing up of all the group so everybody can really think of what they need of the instane runs and roll for it without beeing greedy. That's ok fo me and its really cool.
 
But, what happens with th randoms? At the moment they are under the same rule, and after thinking for a while in it, I would like to propose a slight modification to this rule concerning the randoms. This modification will consist in making randoms allways lootable for anybody in the raid, independent if the raiders has already loot once or not.
 
Randoms are not predictable and are difficult to get and I will love to see that everybody has the chance to get them while raiding.
 
For normal loot tables from bosses the loot once per night rule its nice and ok for me, but imagine that you had get a piece from the first boss because you really needed or because officers forced the loot on you, and after a few trash mobs kills there it drops a random piece that its a real need for you (example: Rhystlyn lost pendant); following the actual rule you will be not allowed to roll for it, and well, I think that this will not be fair enough for all the raiders (not talking about myself, i'm speaking in general and for the future, specially the future 25 man)
 
What do you think about this? Specially the officers, I would love to read some feedback about this proposal.

[Gorion]

random or boss loot falls under the same rule - in short, its still loot
 
now, keep in mind that random drops in KZ target certain classes, the amulet you mention is +shadow damage (if i remember right) so only locks and shadow priests (which we dont have any) get to roll on it.
 
now if we imagine a situation were both locks need it and one of them already got something that night, it would be unfair on the other lock that the one who already won something gets to roll again just because radom loot is rare and random.
 
just my personal oppinion

[saori]

Thanks for your quick feedback big G.
 
But, why unfair? I mean, one raider can save his roll to get a piece of loot it deserves, for example, a piece of Prince (just an example), and then you have another raider that is same class and spec, but the piece of loot for what he is saving his roll it usually drops from a previous boss (example, moroes), and in the middle it will drop the random, will be unfair for the first raider that is saving for getting his piece from prince that the other one that is same class and specc has the chance to roll and loot that random?
 
In my opinion randoms in the end its true that are loot, but they are "extra loot". In the scenario I had described it will not make a great difference between the two raiders, the first one will propably get his piece from the prince and the second will get his piece from the moroes, and in the while both will have the chance to roll for an extra piece that will benefit their class (indeed, rhystlyn lost pendant is +51 shadow dmg)
 
And look about this scenario, first raider needs T4 piece from Prince, second raider dosent need T4 piece because he has something better than it, but he does need a belt from Illhoof. In the middle it will ocurr a random drop that both raiders will want. Following the current rule, raider number 2 will get his belt from illhof (assuming illhof goes down in first place, before than prince) and after that the random will appear but he isnt allowed to roll on it, so raider number 1 will get the loot. And when prince goes down Raider number 1 will have the loot again, since raider number 2 does not need that piece.
 
Making the modification to the rule im proposing will grant both raiders (3, 4, 5..) the same chance to get the extra loot while not affecting the normal plans that everyone has for their gearing up.

[TeaLeaf]

I think the trick is to take gear when it drops and to gear up.  Whether or not the dropped item is a random trash mob or from a random loot table it is still loot.  If it drops and it's an upgrade I would take it - it might mean you do not get another piece of loot that run, but you know what:  the piece of loot you want may not even drop.  Take every upgrade you can get from early bosses, then you will not need ot save your roll as you will not have needed to roll.  That way the better geared members actually have an increased chance on latter bosses to get loot as they will not have used their earlier rolls as they already had theupgrades from those bosses.

But there is no perfect solution.  However I am in agreement with Gorion on this one, loot is loot.

TL.

[saori]

Thank to you too for your feedback Tea.
 
I totally agree with your point of view, thats why in my case I allways pick the loot as early as posible, even if that means I will miss rolls in other drops from later bosses.
 
Loot is loot, that's for sure, but, shall we arrange a diference between loot and random loot or just stay as it is now?
 
Maybe in Kara we are not going to have trouble with this as it is, but in larger instances, will it make a diferrence? From your point of view in Genesis, how this was worked out?

[TeaLeaf]

We use a couple of systems in Genesis atm, some of which might not be apprioriate here atm.  I'll explain:

Karazhan:
We can't be bothered to run a DKP table for it, so if you want an item then roll for it.  If you already had loot early then someone who has not yet had loot gets priority over a roll from someone who has already had loot.  Pretty much exactly the same as described by Gorion.

Gruul:
As we do not formally do Gruul's Lair any more we don't run a DKP system for it.  However we do joint Sora/Genesis runs there to gear up alts and to give any new members or mains after that 'last bit of kit' an opportunity to get it.  We use a roll system again, but prioritise any "raid main from a guild no longer raiding Gruul's Lair".  If no raid main needs it then everyone else can roll on it and the highest gets it.  Again, we tend to use a one per run rule.

SSC/TK
We use a hourly DKP system with loot distributed by bids.  We offer 1 DKP per hour and we ask anyone who wants loot to whisper a bid to a specific officer stating:


e.g.
Whisper from Teaelle: [item]Fathomstone[/item] 25 dkp Raid
Whisper from Admat: [item]Fathomstone[/item] 30 dkp Raid
Whisper from Lunares: [item]Fathomstone[/item] 1 dkp other
Whisper from Torir: [item]Fathomstone[/item] 30 dkp other

We prioritise initially on a 'use' basis.  We ask members to state whether the loot item is for a 'primary raid' or for 'other' use.  For example a feral tank's main use is tanking items, other might be building up a dps or healing set.
We have a minimum bid of 1 DKP and a maximum bid of 30 DKP.  If bids are tied then the person with the highest DKP gets the item.
We charge the amount of the 2nd bid, not the highest bid (or 1 dkp if only 1 bid)
Members can spend and receive as many items per night as they wish.
The advantage for Genesis of this system is that peopel are far more willing to build up off-spec gear sets which makes raid flexibility that much greater as many items go for just 1 dkp when nobody else wants them, or where the raid main users of the item already have it.
In the above example Admat (althought he has less DKP than me) would get the item as he bid more than me and it will cost him 25 dkp.
If neither I nor Admat bid on the item, the Torir would have won the item and been charged 1 dkp for it.  He would cleartly have been looking to build up a DPS set.

Hope this explains how Genesis do it.

TL.

[saori]

Woa! Tealle, as usual comming from you, an excellent explanation.
 
Its nice how Genesis manage the DKP system, and its true that a system like that is totally out of scope for minor raids like Kara.
 
Well, I think we all had stated here some important points in sight of the future.
 
Thanks a lot for your opinion guys.

[Bob]

But, why unfair? I mean, one raider can save his roll to get a piece of loot it deserves

The main point in my mind, is that people should never "save a roll". That would just be the start of a greed culture, where people will pass on items they potentially could have good use of (yes, we have a rule for this, but it's hard to have a good overview and enforce it 100%) just because they really want something that might drop later on. We saw tendencies for it "back in the days", where people would pass on good items, just because they wouldn't be first in line with DKP if they took it, and that was not a good thing.

A roll is, in my point of view, like a fresh product: it gets bad if you don't use it

That said, your views are much appreciated Saori, so thank you for bringing 'em forward. Nothing bad can come out of a good discussion :thumbsup2:

Edit: I had only seen the two first pages of the thread when replying, so if something has already been said, I apologize for that.

[Arcticfire]

But TL ...why charging the second bid and not the fist???
i mean this way some1 can go "all in"( u know what i mean)
and only has to pay the second bid and is about sure he wins anyway caus he bids like 100 DKP or more ofcourse

[TeaLeaf]

To stop overbids and items going for crazy prices that would then damage the raid's ability to purchase future items that would benefit the raid.

TL.