Not Like This

[Azunai]

Ok so I just quit mid-raid, mid-fight even.

Why? Because to be frank I have hit the limit. I have had it with our raiding style. I've also had it with having to hold back on my opinion due to my officer rank and the fact that I should remain calm and try to help people out and sorting problems instead of getting mad.

But I've tried, and it's just no use is it? I can tell you lot a hundred times to go and check rotations etc. but what's the point if nobody gives a damn? Honestly, I don't care if people don't want to be lvl in terms of skill. It's your game, it's your money. But then don't come to a ToC25 raid, because guess what.. it doesn't work that way! I look at the logs and I see people doing 6.5k dps. That's great! Too bad it's only 3/4 of them and the curve is a rapidly descending one after that.

Tell you my opinion, even though there have been small victories at times, they are few and far inbetween. We have been slacking about for a very long time now and I have pretty much had it. I said it this night in response to someone saying "it's just not our night". It's never our night! In fact, every once in a blue moon, it *is*. We've been hampered by people d/c'ing if someone farts too loud, people responding too slow on special events, etc. etc. for ages now, it's not something of the last few weeks.

I can keep telling myself that DMR is such a great guild cause the people are so friendly, and they are, they really are, but there's a voice in my head asking: if raiding (more or less the only time I am logged on for 3hrs+, and the only thing I really like to do in this game) is this bad, then why am I staying?  2 other voices have answered: A) Responsability as an officer and B) Social atmosphere. But that one voice is getting louder and to be honest, he has a point. I'm paying for this game on a monthly basis and the one part of it that is supposed to be loads of fun for me feels more and more like talking to a brick wall lately.

If it has to be like this, then I just don't feel like it anymore really. I don't mean a grudge against people, I don't mean to tell people "you suck!", I just want everyone to think for themselves, "What do I want from this game?"

Do I want to kill every raiding boss in the game, do I want the fat purples? That's cool, but work for it! It's not going to get handed to you on a plate!

Do I want to enjoy the game as a game, playing it as best I can but not going to hardcore uber extremes? Fine too, it's your money after all! But then ask yourself if you are not reaching the peak of where you can go as a raider.

It's not a question I'm asking people individually. I am not at power to act upon those answers nor do I pretend nor want to be. But we need to find an answer to this question as a guild, because we cannot run 50/50 raidgroups.

My personal answer is: Put in the effort, or don't come wasting a space in a raid with people who do want to clear the game. I *know* that we don't have the luxury of saying "Ok well you're not doing enough dps/doing your job right, so we're replacing you", but it's time we are honest to ourselves about it.

A question from me: Am I still in a guild that wants to clear content, or are people at the point where they feel they have reached the summit of their possibilities? Cause I can't keep getting bounced around between my wish to go further than this and my feeling of guilt and responsibility to the guild if I did.

[Deminion]

I understand you Garrit, ooh i do.
Last week we twoshotted thoose twins, and now we are back at ppl not doing what they need to.

[Claw]

:thumb:
i can only speak for my self at this point of time, since i have just been promoted, but i do support the fact of we need to get our act streight if we want to continue being hardcore.

- claw

[Mezzanine]

I look at the logs and I see people doing 6.5k dps. That's great! Too bad it's only 3/4 of them and the curve is a rapidly descending one after that.

The same can be said on the healing side of our raids (raiding isn't only about dps, you know). Different fights suit different healing classes better, however same class, same spec, same gear level and yet a incredibly different output is beyond me! What we do have is a 100% excellent selection of tanks, which is fortunate. It doesn't matter who's tanking of you guys, we can always depend on you.

This guild is worth staying in for its people. And the raiding hours are great! If we could make a generally softcore guild to become hardcore a few hours a few nights a week, it would be the dream guild in my eyes. But nothing comes for free, does it?

[Gandalf]

ok, this is also something I've been thinking a lot about myself recently and I find myself in a similar position to Garrit. I want to progress. I want us all to progress. But we need people to really work at it.

We have some great members, who know their class, the fights and can really push out the required DPS. But there are also some that, for whatever reason, are an order of magnitude below others of their class.

I want everyone to raid. I want everyone to have fun, however as it stands we are going to end up frustrating the people that want to progress to the point that they leave, then no-one raids!

So we need to do something about this to get the fun back in raiding. The best raid night I've done in a long time was the other week when we ran 2 x 10 mans side by side. That was a blast, not only because the fights are easier, but because each team worked really well together and listened as in a 10 man, if one person doesn't pull their weight, all suffer.

In 25 man, it's easy enough to drag an underperforming members through on the easier fights, but when we get to the tougher ones, we hit a brick wall as Garrit so eloquently puts it.

I introduced the class leaders into the guild structure just for this purpose. You guys need to be looking at the combat logs of the raids, identifying people who are underperforming, and finding out why! Then see what can be done to get them up to speed.

It is getting to the point now where we, the officers, are going to start making the decisions that no-one wants to make. We will start leaving people from raids if they consistantly show poor performance. If that means that we only run 10 mans that night, then that is what it will be.

And please, if you have a problem with how you play the game and can't seem to get the level of performance others do, ask! The forums are here, we are all friendly and want to help each other.

[Mezzanine]

It is getting to the point now where we, the officers, are going to start making the decisions that no-one wants to make. We will start leaving people from raids if they consistantly show poor performance. If that means that we only run 10 mans that night, then that is what it will be.

I don't think those dedicated to raiding are up for 10-m instances every raid night, even though I think you're right that those are generally more fun as we're performing better.

This is why I think it's really valuable to use the initiate trial period to evaluate a player's raiding skills/attitude and then make a decision whether they're material for it or not and take action as soon as possible. To avoid ending up with underperforming members who cba to listen, shape up or ask for advice - demote them to social if they like to stay in the guild and find players more in line with our raiding philosophy. Raidingwise we're not a charity organization, are we?

We had a bunch of new players coming from Eye of Ra (that's the name right?) who became socials at once. I'm confident there's more talent to be found amongst them - why don't you test more of them a few nights and replace the honoured who aren't worth the title?

And please, if you have a problem with how you play the game and can't seem to get the level of performance others do, ask! The forums are here, we are all friendly and want to help each other.

I'm afraid that those who hasn't read previous "get a grip" posts, won't read this one either. Or if they read them and didn't understand the last time, they won't suddenly grow a brain and realize what it is about.



Oh, harsh post. Here, have a cookie.

[Gandalf]

Oh, harsh post. Here, have a cookie.

Yay for cookies! :wub:

Some good comments there, thank you. Please keep them coming

[Gandalf]

Performance section of DMR Direction updated.

[Bellanie]

to be honest with everyone, the most fun i have had raiding in the last few weeks is the 10man grps we have going on the off nights, take wenesday for example a grp of us cleared ony, toc and then waited around for voa and cleared that aswell. it doesn't matter who was in the grp or what the dps was the point i am making is at the 10man content we are great we can clear it all, but when it comes to the 25man stuff we suck big time:crying:

Patch 3.3 is already hitting the PTR this week which means Icecrown Citadel will be with us in a few months. and lets face it we will not be rolling up in there banging on the Throne room door and asking the lich king to die by our blades, we will roll up to the throne room and the lich king will say "DMR have they come to tickle me or perform a ballet?"

so its pretty much a point in tme now where we all need to step back and think what the hell are we doing wrong?

Last week we downed the twins got onto Anub and we kept wiping and we will keep wiping as we do not have the dps to bring him down, its the same situation with Thorim. We are just baning our heads againist a brick wall!

In terms of progression we are months behind all the other guilds on the server. I know we are not a hardcore raiding guild, and i am very thankful for that as it allows me to spend time with my wife and kids:) but we have several choices open to us either we continue to bang our heads againist the wall or we explore other options.

1 - Pull our fingers out of which ever orifice we have them shoved up and learn our classes better than we do now, and continue with the 25mans and nuke yogg and anub and still be back in time for Tea and Crumppets on the Lawn!

2- We have a change of direction, what ever the officers decide that is:norty:

I apologise if i have offended any1 but hey ho these things need saying, i love DMR and i love the people in the guild, we all get along with each other great:)

/end Rant

Regards
Dave

[Mezzanine]

Thing is... Words are all fine and pep talks can be moralizing, but we need action to be taken. Contructive instructions, communication to those concerned.

I advice you to not implement written rules that are not executed; it gives a false impression it's under control. Trust me, I know it's easier said than done, but any DMR Raiding Guideline will fall flat if the DMR management itself isn't adhering to the consequences members will suffer if rules aren't followed.

@ Officers. We have quite a few of you. First of all, make sure you don't belong to those not obiding by guild guidelines. You're the role models. If you don't have to do what is asked of you as a raider, noone else bothers either. Make sure you have an optimal structure among your lot to help out the best you can in the direction that is meant for DMR - decisions are best made if they're thouroghly discussed, either in your own forum, or in the officers' chat. Guild politics is tough and ungrateful business and shouldn't be shouldered individually.

@ Classleaders. You need to step up. That's a start. Make sure you have the backup you need from the management and work on players not performing satisfactory. That, along with arranging sub-tactics in class channels, must be your main task. If you don't do it, there's going to be "helpful" whispers all over the place or more rude shouts in raid chat, doing more harm than good. Report back to the management who or what isn't working as well as why, together with strategic advice how to move on.



God, I'm running out of cookies...

[Gandalf]

And rest assured, there is plenty of talking going on 'behind the scenes'

We will resolve this.

[Lola]

Hi all

First off I wasn't in last nite's raid but I fully 'get' where Garrit is coming from and I too am going to be totally honest and probably harsh but I'm not going to apologise for it either. What I do hope is that you understand that this post is borne out of total frustration.

Over the last few months we have made little progress and this is down to the fact that we have people amongst us who think their play style needs no change, that their attitude is fine, that they know the tactics and think that basically the sun shines out of an orifice down below - I have news for those people who think that you need to wake up and take a good look at your overall performance, because there are some seriously slack people continually joining us on our 25 man expeditions.
Now to be balanced I'm not perfect, I'm not the best healer and I definitely do not have the best gear and I know I will never be an 'uber' player BUT I do try my hardest, I abide by the raid rules, I respect our raid/class leaders, I explore my spec and my play style and have asked others how they play and have tried to make changes to ensure I give it my all and yes we all have off days but in the main, I don't slack raid after raid after raid.

So to my fellow raiders if you aren't performing as well as you should be do something about it. For example, I see people (and no names mentioned) on the faction bosses standing there, not moving, getting hit and expecting to be healed through it. Trust me I'm not going to do that, as those individuals are not worth my mana, when I see others who do what they are supposed to, they will get priority. End of.

To the officers/raid/class leaders you need to be harsh, you need to remove consistent under performers and if they leave then so what? Like Mezz quite rightly said utilise some of the ex-Eyes of Ra socials. The underperformers are not worth the investment if they refuse to change or learn and I think it's very sad that Garrit felt so frustrated he quit mid-raid and I can totally understand it. What you are forgetting is there is a core of players who are good, loyal and passionate and you expect them (and you) to wipe nite after nite because the shite ones are still allowed to raid.

If you don't do something soon you are only going to be left with a reduced amount of core raiders, it will take one significant person leaving and you will find this will cause a domino effect and you will be stuck doing 10 man's for ever.

I'd also like to make one more comment to the raid leaders, you need to start listening to people when they make suggestions and if it's not a viable one then explain that, people are making suggestions and the general feeling (no it's not just my view) is "the suggestions are just dismissed".

Unfortunately, some of the people who need to be actually reading this are not regular forum users and are probably too busy jacking off over, as Garrit said, and think they are of that ââ,¬Ëœuberââ,¬â,,¢ standard when really they suck big hairy donkey balls.

I really hope to see some changes really soon and I really hope we progress but again as Mezz said:

 "Words are all fine and pep talks can be moralizing, but we need action to be taken. Constructive instructions, communication to those concerned".

[Gandalf]

Unfortunately, some of the people who need to be actually reading this are not regular forum users and are probably too busy jacking off over, as Garrit said, and think they are of that ââ,¬Ëœuberââ,¬â,,¢ standard when really they suck big hairy donkey balls.

I think this is actually a big part of the problem and something that needs addressing. I'm certainly open to suggestions here, as the Guild Message of the Day does have 'check the forums!' in there, but it's clear that not everyone does.

I really hope to see some changes really soon and I really hope we progress but again as Mezz said:

 "Words are all fine and pep talks can be moralizing, but we need action to be taken. Constructive instructions, communication to those concerned".

I agree too, and that is exactly why I brought in the Class Leaders. To assist with that. I had so much to handle that I wanted another level of 'officer' there to assist with the performance aspect. Hence Class Leaders were born. Class Leaders, please, re-read the job description and make sure you are doing what is required! If you don't feel up to the job, let me know and we can find someone else who can!

I want DMR to be a fun place to be, but I also want us to progress in raids and that means that some harsh decisions will need to be made. We will still be a fun social guild, but official raids are going to become more serious from now on.

[Lola]

I think this is actually a big part of the problem and something that needs addressing. I'm certainly open to suggestions here, as the Guild Message of the Day does have 'check the forums!' in there, but it's clear that not everyone does

Is there a tool on this site where you can see who has logged on or who hasn't logged on in a long time or like ever since they made their original app?

Class Leaders, please, re-read the job description and make sure you are doing what is required! If you don't feel up to the job, let me know and we can find someone else who can!

I think that speaks volumes, I think most are up to it but I don't think all are (not saying that I could do any better btw) to be really honest.

I want DMR to be a fun place to be... but official raids are going to become more serious from now on.

Good pleased to hear it. You and the officers need to be hard on us all and if it's not in your nature then recruit a (delete as applicable) 'bad news you're out/you suck/you don't not have the required IQ of an amoeba to understand tictacs' (oke maybe not that harsh but you get my drift and underlying annoyance at our current situation) class leader who wouldn't think twice about delivering the message.

[Bellanie]

And rest assured, there is plenty of talking going on 'behind the scenes'

We will resolve this.

This i am glad to hear mate:)

but i dont mean to step out of line or anything but this problem needs to be resolved as soon as possible, or over the next few raids if we keep going the way we are the whole thing is going to fall apart. I for one and, i know everyone else does not want this to happen, but after pouring over the logs from last night and previous raids, and with also a bit of guidence from TL i have brought my haste rating from 394 to 541 and that has brought my dps up on the target dummys in IF by a extra 500:)