Loot System Change

[sheepy]

^^ exactlly, sit in the raid offline on ur main and farm gold on an alt till called for

[Mat]

TL, Tirkad is perfectly right, if there is 30 guys up for raid, and than obviously 5 is left behind as a backup, they should be rewarded without being logged as main, idlying in Dala for 3 hours... Its just ridicoulus idea.

[Gandalf]

obviously dont take this as the official word, but im sure the officers have plans to let the other people get their Trophies before moving them onto DKP - or keeping the same system i dunno

Yeah, I have thought about this and as trophies are not loot as such and are similar to onyxia's head and the bag I think we'll continue the roll for these until everyone has one.

Once this has occured then we will look at changing this.

As for your comments Tirkad, I totally hear what you are saying and I do like the TS channel idea. So if you do want to do dailies with your main and not be in the raid, but be available as a backup in case we need you then yes, you will be awarded DKP. However, this will have to be manually awarded as the addon will not be able to cope. But if you can leave your main in the raid, and log off to do dailies on your alt, then the way described should work fine.

Not too sure about the fixed prices though, how do we fix prices? What should an item be worth? It all puts the stress back on the ML, and this system should remove that. The idea of a bidding system is so that the person bidding will only pay for an item what they believe it is worth to them. If they want to spend 100 DKP on something that is a massive upgrade for them, then that is their decision as to them, it is worth it.

As said, it's new to us and will take a few weeks to get a system that will work great, but I think this will really benefit the guild and will sure make my life easier when it comes to loot time!

[Gandalf]

oh, and patterns. At the moment, we generally distribute those to officers that can use them. They will then offer the items to guild at cost.

If no officers are online that can make use of the patterns then they become open for rolls in the old system. DKP in the new.

So, in answer to that question, if no officer needs the pattern, then they will become normal loot for DKP bidding.

[Tirkad]

Wrong.  You can go play an alt.  DKP is awarded by the addon and it picks up who is in the raid, not who is online.

Perfect. As long as i don't have to sit in front of the screen idly waiting for a call, it's fine with me. :yahoo:

[TeaLeaf]

1) Award players more dkp for the effort put in raids, that means that every boss killed will award 1 more dkp to all the raiders and a bonus of 2 more dkp for first kills (just to make some examples). This will, in my opinion, encourage the members to put some effort in the fight.

This is a very well tested dkp model which is known to fail hard.  What happens in reality if you award dkp for a boss kill is that you pay people more for a farm night (so they turn up) and less for a hard night of progress raiding (so they do not turn up).  That's the whole point of a time-based DKP system, it rewards your contribution & effort, not those who skip the wipe night.  Additional dkp for boss kills just introduces a bias to the system that does not need to be there.

2) Make a "backup people" room in ts. The members that are not needed at the moment in the raid will join this channel, they can do whatever they want, as long as they remain there and be online on wow. At the end of the raid, they will be awarded with a certain amount of dkp for their time (let's say 2 dkp each backup, just for example). This will allow players to actually play the game while being at the complete disposal of the guild (just give a shout on the backup channel and warn the one you need, in less than a minute he will be on his/her main ready to rock).

I know Gandalf has already responded to this, but my experience of not leaving a main in the raid is that it makes no difference to anyone.  You turned up to raid so surely you did not plan to do your dailies at that time?  It's a happy bonus if you get to sit outside in the queue as it allows you to do some ADDITIONAL rep gathering/farming etc on an alt in addition to the raid main time you had planned.  It think it is a very minor price to pay to allow the officers ot use an automated system.  The price for doing it manually is you miss out on some dkp as tbh I doubt the officers will maintain a 100% perfect record of remembering to manually add DKP to those who opted out of the automated system.  It's a system that has proven to work extremely well in many other raid guilds.  If you prefer to leave the raid then that's your shout, but mistakes will happen and you will lose dkp is my best guess.  KISS and keep your main in the raid is my 2 cents.  Then go play an alt.  

Personally I spend my queue time in the raid and listening to Ventrillo in the raid channel, otherwise how on earth do you expect to be picking up on all the learning points for a new boss?  I am rarely out of raid (if at all) as I spend my time trying to analysing and taking part in the various role channel discussions during the raid to help them.

3) I really would like to have fixed prices for loot. For instance: 10 dkp for the trophy and 2h weapons, 5 dkp for 1h weapons, off-hand, cloaks, necklaces, trinkets and rings, and 3 dkp for everything else (just to make an example). So far the council has always taken the right decisions, at least from my point of view.

Fixed prices create problems of their own and do not value loot any more accurately than a bid system.  Arguably it is even less accurate at valuing an item of loot.  For example why would you value:

- a rare drop trinket at half the price of a best in slot 2H weapon?  
- a trophy that gives a 4 set bonus to a raid spec main at the same price for someone building an offspec set for occasional raid use
- a BIS 2H at the same price as a less well stat'd 2H weapon that is not as attractive
- the very first i245 item to drop for the guild at the price as an i245 item dropping some months later when the guild is now wearing i258
-why would you value an i232 item at the same price as an i245 or as an i258?  (think about the alternative system where you keep increasing the cost of an item each time the iLevel goes up - there are some pretty obvious logical consequences in relation to caps/inflation etc)
-why value an item that only one person can use at the same level as an item 25 people could use?  It's either used or sharded!

It simply does not make sense for someone to arbitrarily set a price and it introduces a level of complexity way above what is needed.  I have been in a fixed price system and it sucks - and the 15 tab spreadsheet used to run the system is as big an argument as anything to just KISS instead.  

In an auction system the market values the items and you can set your own value, that way everyone pays the price they think an item is worth - so if you think that BIS trinket is only worth 5 dkp then you'll defintely not have to pay more for it than 5 dkp, but you also might not win any auction on it for a very long time!  The point is that the choice is yours as to how to spend your dkp, you get to decide.

Likewise when you try to gear up an offspec fixed prices actually hurt the raid as it penalises people for having a decent offspec gear set.  A bid system regularly allows items for offspec to be bought for 1 dkp, which is a low price that people are willing to pay.

An hourly dkp using a cap and an open bid auction system is not a perfect solution by any means, no system is ever perfect, but it is as good as any and in practice I have found those types of system to be the most liked and effective amongst raiders and officers alike.

In addition, i've got a question: Are the patterns dropped in the instance following the same looting rules?

I do not know what the officers plan here's what we do:

-where the recipe & the item made are both BOP then bid for it using dkp.
-where the item is BOE then roll for it where less than 2 recipes are in guild already
-once 2 of that recipe are already held in guild then guild bank takes the recipe for immediate sale to help fund future raiding (Icecrown for example).  Other members can buy the recipe at a 50% discount as per normal guild bank rules.

Crusader Orbs are sort of similar, but we sell these to members for main/alt use at 50% AH price these days.

Auction System:
You will get some oddities in an auction system, but it also adds a certain level of excitement - you do not know who wants that piece of loot most.  Some nights you'll be lucky and be the only one of your spec raiding and maybe will pick up some loot real cheap.  Other nights you'll be in competition for things and pay more for a seriously well wanted item.  I'm in such a system at the moment and have paid up to 90 times more dkp for a rare drop trinket then my cheapest item.  But then I valued them like that and the trinket has thus far only dropped twice for my guild and about 12 people want it.  

The point of a low ratio cap:hour system is to encourage people to spend dkp.  Every time dkp is spent then the raid wins.  Every time someone hoards dkp or skips a minor upgrade then the raid loses.  The bid system allows minor upgrades or offspec loot to be bought for almost nothing and it encourages people to use what they can when it drops.  The raid wins, the raid progresses faster as a result, the raid gets more loot as a result, you get more loot as a result.  That's a Win Win in my book.

In the system I am in atm (which is similar to this proposed system) with a cap of 150 and a maximum negative dkp of -50, I have seen items be bought for between 1 - 180 dkp.  The 180 dkp was a BIS spell power 1H, the next was a 150 for the server first i258 T9.5 chest token drop.  I paid 110 dkp for my BIS i258 weapon and I'm happy, because I spent dkp on things I *really* wanted.  You can see the range in the Eluo system here and it demonstrates very well how the value of items decay over time.  Trophies used to go for a lot of dkp, now they are being picked up for negligible dkp as nobody needs them any more other than for offspecs.

[DannagE]

So if something drops that say 2 people want. Do you bid DKP like you're on ebay? So say player 1 bids 3DKP, player 2 4DKP can player 1 then bid 5DKP to beat player 2 or is it just 1 bid?

I like the idea of the system, better than rolls when it comes to that item you've been really wanting and never drops. Stop you from rolling and 7 :doh:

Is it being used this sunday? If so what time are we starting to get it all sorted as the last few raids have had a late start :boxing:

[JonnyAppleSeed]

You get 1 shot at a bid for an item .... so your leather bracers of win drop you wisper ML with a bid of what you think that item is worth to you. If i wanted them also i would bid. The high one wins

The only problem i have ever seen with the system is when people start to be sneaky and start wispering eachother to find out if they need to spend dkp. DONT DO IT ... remeber its the same system for offspec loot

One thing it should promote is the wise use of loot. You have an amount of dkp so you dont wanna blow it on an item you are not sure about bid lower, When a best in slot item pops up for ya spend spend spend. Go find what you need for upgrades:D

[Gandalf]

Actually, last night we done open rolls in raid chat. That way everyone sees what is being bid. For example.

Item of Loot
!bid 1 (I've just bid 1 dkp for this)
!bid 2 (Someone else bid 2 and outbid me)
!bid 3 (I really want it so I bid 3 dkp)

No more bids after a few seconds, the ML closes the roll and the item is awarded to the highest bidder.

You can bid as many times as you want, like ebay, it's your DKP pool, spend it how you want. But remember, once you hit your overdraft, you cannot bid again until you get back into positive figures.

[DannagE]

Sorry JAS I like Gandys way better :roflmao:

Makes more sense, but would have to have a timelimit on it else it could get silly.

Deaths Verdict just needs to drop now :ranting2:

[Bellanie]

i think it worked really well last night after a few trys:) was nice simple and very quick, altough i think poor gandy gets spammed everytime some1 does  !list to him:roflmao::roflmao:

[Gandalf]

Sorry JAS I like Gandys way better :roflmao:

Makes more sense, but would have to have a timelimit on it else it could get silly.

Deaths Verdict just needs to drop now :ranting2:

no time limit on bids, like a real auction, to prevent sniping.

[Gandalf]

i think it worked really well last night after a few trys:) was nice simple and very quick, altough i think poor gandy gets spammed everytime some1 does  !list to him:roflmao::roflmao:

Actually, I don't see those /w so please do not worry about spamming it.

[JonnyAppleSeed]

ahh right I stand corrected :doh:

[Vanguish]

oh, and patterns. At the moment, we generally distribute those to officers that can use them. They will then offer the items to guild at cost.
 
If no officers are online that can make use of the patterns then they become open for rolls in the old system. DKP in the new.
 
So, in answer to that question, if no officer needs the pattern, then they will become normal loot for DKP bidding.

So this means officers get patterns for nothing and a regular raider looses DKP over a pattern? :g:
Sounds a bit unfair imo..
 
but the rest of this system sounds really good! :yahoo:
 
Vanguish