RGW Progression

[Swedeguy]

As discussed on TS after raid 28/11 extending raidtime half an hour on each side is doable for me. I have a hard time getting to sleep anyway so....   :devil:

/Mats

[Mellisanda]

i suggest we start the first pull at 20.00 and end at either 23.45 or midnight, more raid time.

/sharp

I have no problem with extending the raid time either!

[Tanales]

Read and understood

And adding 30 min to each end of the raid is fine with me for now.

But maybe a vote would be best to determine this? with a few options:

1. add 30 min to start and end to the raid
2. add an hour to the end of the raid
3. add 30 min to the end of the raid
4. add 30 min to the start of the raid

And i like Sharps suggestion that we pull at 20:00 aswell, but end at 23:30 imo, that would be 1 h 30 min extra raidtime each week wich isnt to bad either.

[Mariotet]

I like Sharps idea and if i would choose any of the options Tanales put up i would say 1,3 and 4. Not to add an hour at the end of the raidtime we have now

[TeaLeaf]

Focusing on raid hours is a slight threadjack, so if Switch wants the timing comments carved out into a different thread then let me know and I will apply my forum moderator powers!

Wow, the timing of raids is a hot potato!    

Firstly, I would highlight something that Switch said in the original post which I think is highly relevant and is actually a higher priority in my opinion:  Not everyone is yet preparing or performing at a level of which their characters are capable.  Extending raid hours will not fix this problem, so there is a possibility that extending the raid time available might simply mean more time is available to wipe.  

The alternative, to help get the progress that RGW clearly want, is to apply some performance management to the current raiders to help everyone achieve the appropriate performance level.   This has its own downsides though as it might then become clear that some people are simply not able to do this in a raid environment.   Individual performance problems though are definitely not for discussion here, that's solely an RGW Raid Leader domain!

If you make more effective use of your time then you will progress faster and possibly within your current raid time.  That having been said, here's some background:


The timing of raids is actually quite a sensitive issue depending on the time zones of your raiders.  

The 20:15 start exists as a compromise for UK raiders as that equates to 19:15 first pull, which means they are needing to get online by about 19:00, which in turn means it is pretty tight for those getting home from work.  We don't want people coming in the front door, past their wife and kids and jumping straight onto the computer.  A number of the UK-based RGT members would struggle to kick off earlier, some RGW members might have the same problems.

Likewise, at the other end of the raid, you might have people who are in a time zone ahead of CET, hence the current 23:15 finish might be a 00:15 or even later finish for them.    You also need to consider who has to get up early next morning and finishing real late is not an option for those people.  For example, in the past I remember Tanales regularly getting sleepy or actually having to log off to fall asleep before the end of late finish raids!

I can well imagine that some people might not be willing to speak out too publicly about their personal situations and ability to meet longer raid hours, so I'd recommend that if a discussion is held that raid leaders do it privately with each member within their role group and then collate the replies within the RGW Raid Leader section for analysis.

That said, if a suitable answer is found then it's down to the Raid Leaders to decide the hours RGW raids.

The alternative to raid hours, is a third raid night, but that's a discussion on hold until the new year.

BUT

The negatives are this:

Longer hours generally means less focus and more 'brain fail' moments - 4 hours in one go is a slog that not too many can handle (I speak as a ex-hardcore raider with much experience of leading raids of this or longer duration and have actually had raiders fall asleep at keyboard in the middle of a raid instance towards the end of the raid).

Longer hours also means more burn out of the people and eventually leads to a higher turnover of members (this is something I most definitely noticed in the past).   DMR is known for its stable guild membership and envied by other guilds for its low turnover of raiders.


However I return to the point I made at the start.  If toons are not performing at 100% capacity then you're probably better off spending your time fixing that first as it is the cheapest & quickest productivity gain you can get.

[Switchback]

Couldn't of said that better myself TL

Starting earlier or finishing later won't help us. Our main issue is raiders performance. We need to all tweak up some a lot more than others. Until its done we will just wipe.

Also in my post I outline people being late. Last night was good, as people obviously read the post and thought they should get on. Hopefully that will continue. If we start earlier I think we will be left waiting for late comers.

I personally can't do either. I get in from work about a hour before raid. I want to get washed and play with my kids before I jump in front of a computer. As for staying on longer, no chance. I'm up most mornings at 5am. Raid nights I get about 4 hrs kip.
As lots of people do want it though I will pm you all and please tell me what would suit you and reasons why we should do it. Once I have your answers on a postcard the leaders will discuss it.



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[Sharpfang]

First of all, Switch told us to post it here regarding the extension of the raid days we already have in ts last nite.

Secondly, Switch said last nite that we had less wipes than RGT.
How many wipes and hours did RGT spend on elegon before they killed him? how many wipes and hours have we spent?
 RGT has 9 hours of raiding a week, we have 6. In my opinion as people learn the fights, dps will improve, movement will improve.
RGT had the opportunity to have 2 consecutive nights on him the weeks before they killed him, which obviously helps.

I am all for performance monitoring, if someone isnt doing as well as theyre expected it should be looked into and dealt with. '
But this is something the RGW leaders should be doing already ?

I also find it weird that u were positive to extend the raids in ts last night switch, and now being all negative

/Sharp

Edit: And did RGT's dps rise from the earlier tries to the kill?

[Switchback]

Well thinking about it, and after reading tl's post it points out pros and cons.

In regards to performance management rgw leaders and TL have been talking with some people for several weeks now. I state that in my original post. We are trying to assist them some are heading our advice and it shows, others aren't.

Tbh that isn't for discussion here.


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[TeaLeaf]

I note that Switch asked people to comment, but I was trying to point out the issue and that some people will not their personal availability publicly discussed, it needs a group decision by the RLs.

Edit: And did RGT's dps rise from the earlier tries to the kill?

I'm not really sure if that's relevant?  The point being made was about performing to the maximum and if you're not then you need to find out why and make the changes necessary to become top-performing.

If you want comparable, here's a 9:37 wipe from RGT to go with your 9:32.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-g7zwzra4l6ty50v8/sum/damageDone/?s=9074&e=9651

If you want early wipe, here's an 8:01 wipe which was the 4th pull RGT ever had on Elegon:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-teus7qzufjlgxek0/sum/damageDone/?s=1535&e=2017
RGT dpse (RGW dpse as linked by Switch):
Guru 83.8k (75.7k)
Hubbah 79.4k (74.5k)
Teaell 72.0k (68.4k)
Slush 57.1k (63.2k)
Milly 53.8k (61.1k)
Puja 43.7k (57.7k)
Raid total DPSe: 470.2k (486.9k)

Not sure how the comparison helps though as RGT had worse ilevel back on 22nd October when this try happened compared to RGW's current ilevel.

[Sharpfang]

you didnt answer my question TL.

How many wipes and hours did RGT spend on elegon before they killed him? how many wipes and hours have we spent?

and it is relevevant because after people have learnt the mechanics of the fight they will perform better

[Ranualf]

Extending the raid +30 mins would be acceptable to be, maybe even an hour..
but until after the 20th December, hmm my time is going to be some what limited.

As currently i have 4 assignments on the go, of which 2 have to be handed in by the 12th Dec as well as  2 law exams to take- one on employment law and conciliation, the other on contract law and the equality act (former sex & racial discrimination acts) , so yea, my time will be restricted a lot until Feb 12th, where the remaining 2 get handed in, then they give me a book review to conduct as well as another assignment- nice...

Other than that, all of what i would of said has been said, so, lets look for that extra dps to push the sparkly dragon over, and onto the helicopter winding up fight..

[TeaLeaf]

you didnt answer my question TL.

How many wipes and hours did RGT spend on elegon before they killed him? how many wipes and hours have we spent?

and it is relevevant because after people have learnt the mechanics of the fight they will perform better

No, it is more relevant to look at a fight you already know and then measure the underperformance by comparison.

The logs are public Sharp, you can look this stuff up for yourself if you can be bothered.  The answer is 64.

[Sharpfang]

ok. im fine with whatever RGW leaders decide, lemme know if im underperforming and ill fix it

Sharp out

[Sithvid]

Like the set up of the raid as it is things seem fair. With a larger group there is less play time but progression seems steady. Iirc rgw formed 4 months after the cata release most were well geared.  However many raids were called players playing off-spec rgt helping out a lot. I'd say keep the hours as they are and spend time feeding back on how to improve


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[Pendice]

The only 2 possible ways i can see is a extra day which i know until after Xmas this wont be happening. Or extend the raid lock so we can get longer on Eleagon.
As i cant see with the time we have on him right now, is not enough to kill him.