Another DKP System

[KreuZ]

This DKP system was made by Tenilia just a few hours ago, he's also explained some more detailed mechanics in it to me and I love it. Please consider it.

Tenilia starts.
Zero sum hour DKP system

A quick introduction to the 2 systems that are combined at the start with the cons and pros of those systems. Continues with explaining the system proposed and give the pros and cons of those. Then there is an explanation of how to get fair fixed values for items. Lastly there is a 1 week example comparing how zero sum vs zero sum hour DKP systems would be and best ways to implement the system.

Basic zero sum system

Every item that drops has a fixed value that it costs and the fixed value is divided between all the players in the raid. So if I buy an item for 80, I loose 80 but everyone in the raid gains 2 including me.

Good things with the Zero sum system

It has no inflation.
It fairly projects DKP per item dropped

Problems with zero sum systems

Only gives DKP for actual boss kills (and random drops). This can cause attendance problems and doesn’t reward tries on new bosses.
Hard to decide the fixed values of items.

Basic Hour DKP system

Every hour spent inside an instance gives you a set amount of DKP and items have either a fixed value or a bid system. Example I spend 5hours for a BWL clear and get 15DKP (3DKP per hour) I can then spend 50DKP on an item by either buying it for a fixed value or I bid that amount on the item.

Good things about hour DKP system

Fairly projects DKP for time spent in the instance.
People can not pick raid nights based on what raid will benefit them the most.

Problems with hour DKP system

Very hard to balance it to get minimum inflation.
Hard to get fixed values for items.
Since every hour is supposed to have the same value but the item prices should increase in value you will have problems with the DKP earned staying the same while the DKP spent will constantly increase.

The Zero Sum Hour DKP system

Now lets say that you have 20 items drop in one week for a total of 2400 DKP and you are using the zero sum system. This would give 40 people 60DKP that week while 20persons would have used 120DKP in average. Now instead of updating the system after each item drop you only update every instance reset. And instead of dividing it to the people that were there for the item drop you will divide the total with average number of players each time and then again with the number of hours raided that week. In this example we had 40 players for every hour and lets say 15 hours raided the week. Then you would get 4DKP per person for each hour spent in the raid. So if I raided 15hours I would get the 60DKP, while Vargen might have missed one raid and only raided 10hours and would then get 40DKP for the week.

Good things with Zero Sum Hour DKP system

It has no inflation
It fairly projects DKP for time spent in the instance
It fairly projects DKP per item dropped.
This causes the system to adjust every week so that if item prices go up the hourly DKP goes up.

Problems with this system.
You don’t gain the DKP while you are raiding but after each hour so at the start of the week you see the DKP list and it only changes when items are bought during the week.
It gives Officers a little bit more work to do. The calculations aren’t hard and are done rather quickly but you have to add each hour with 0DKP earned and then change that value when you have calculated the value of each hour. Now if anyone is good with scripting this could be done automatically.
Hard to decide the fixed values for the items.

Finding the Fixed Values

Now I have mentioned the hard to find the values of the items in every single case and if anyone of you has added an item that hadn’t dropped before you would know what I am talking about. But there is a simple system to fix this.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Item_Values

There you will see how you can calculate the value of items. Now most of that isn’t important but if you check the Item slot modifiers you will notice why bracers have worse stats then a helm. Now every item has a set Item level we can take the Tier1 set and say that head, chest and legs should cost 66DKP since it has Ilvl 66. Then the wrist item should cost 66/1.85 or about 36DKP since it has the same Ilvl but the stats get modified with 1.85.
Now since this is the way the game calculates the stats on items this will automaticly give exactly the increase of stats per DKP spent.
The Weapon stats there aren’t quite right but if you look at how items are usually valued against armor you can basically say that a 2hander has about 1.5xIlvl and that a 1hander has about Ilvl and you have a fair reflection of how it is.

Now with this system you have removed the biggest problem with the Zero Sum hour DKP system.

1 week Example

Following is an example week with 3raid nights, 40man raids the whole time. First night MC, second BWL and third with AQ40 and a skeram kill

Lucifron: Felheart Gloves 49DKP, Arcanist Boots 49DKP
Magmadar: Striker’s Mark 69DKP, Medallion of Steadfast Might 37DKP, Lawbringer Legplates 66DKP
Gehennas: Gloves of Prophecy 49DKP, Mana Storm Leggings 63DKP
Garr: Aurastone Hammer 69DKP, Cenarion Helm 66DKP, Gutgore Ripper 69DKP
Baron Geddon: Arcanist Mantle 49DKP, Seal of the Archmagus 38DKP
Shazzrah: Giantstalker Gloves 49DKP, Sorcerous Dagger 65DKP
Sulfuron: Shadowstrike 87DKP, Pauldrons of Might 49DKP
Golemagg: Staff of Dominence 105DKP, Breastplate of Might 66DKP, Nightslayer Chestpiece 66DKP
Majordomo:  Eye of Divinity 107DKP, Sash of Whispered Secrets 53DKP, Fireproof Cloak 39DKP
Ragnaros: Perdition Blade 77DKP, Stormrage Legguards 76DKP, Band of Accuria 42DKP, Leggings of Transcendence 76DKP

Razorgore: Bloodfang Bracers 41DKP, The Untamed Blade 110DKP
Vaelstrasz: Judgement Belt 56DKP, Helm of Endless Rage 74DKP, Dragonstalker’s belt 56DKP
Broodlord: Nemesis Boots 56DKP, Venoumos Totem 52DKP, Netherwind Boots 56DKP
Firemaw:  Claw of the Black Drake 75DKP, Gauntlets of Wrath 56DKP
Ebonroc: Band of Forced Concentration 41DKP, Ebony Flame Gloves 56DKP
Flamegor: Shroud of Pure Thought 56DKP, Judgement Gauntlets 56DKP
Chromaggus: Netherwind Mantle 56DKP, Bloodfang Spaulders 56DKP, Empowered leggings 77DKP, Chromatically Tempered Blade 77DKP, Elementium Reinforced Bulwark 40DKP
Nefarian: Pure Elementium Band 45DKP, Stormrage Chestguard, 76DKP, Cloak of the Broolord 45DKP, Ashkandi, Greatsword of the Brootherhood 122DKP, Head of Nefarian 45DKP

The Prophet Skeram: Beetle Scaled Wristguard 40DKP, Barrage Shoulders 54DKP

Now lets say that there was full clear of MC in 4hours the first night, then full clear of BWL in 6hours on second night and the third night was 5hours with Skeram kill and tries on Sartura. All items were used since you don’t get DKP for a disenchanted item(cant get DKP when there isn’t spent any)

1631DKP spent the first night
1365DKP the second night
94DKP the third night
 total of 3093DKP spent

Now in a standard zero sum system this would give
40,78DKP to those that did MC for 4hours
34.13DKP to those that did BWL for 6hours
2.35DKP to those that did AQ40 for 5hours

In an hour zero sum system you would get 5.16DKP for each hour spent in a instance
20,64 to those that did MC
30.96 to those that did BWL
25.80 to those that did AQ40

The Numbers in the example are a little high since it assumes every drop was used by a player but more realistic hour DKP would be around 3DKP

Implementing the System
There are 3 ways to implement this system.

First is a complete reset and use it for every instance.

Second is keep the old system and start with the new system only in AQ40 and Naxxramas

Third is to take what is done of the old system and change it as a standard zero sum system and use the hour zero sum system after the old system has been changed. But that is a lot of work.

One last thing that can be considered is to add a roof on current DKP, this is to keep people from hoarding DKP for specific items and to help newer people a little to catch up with those that have raided along time. If you are at the top of the roof you are just not considered a member of the raid except for getting an item so you gain no DKP. That roof can be for example be a fixed number like 500 or 1000DKP or it can be a variable number based on the hourly DKP from the last DKP like with the example above it could be 100x5.16 or maybe 150x5.16.
Tenilia ends.

Now I would go for option nr.2 myself but I'd like for us to discuss the system tonight if there will be a officer meeting or some other time.

[Padding]

I need time to reflect on this.... gonna print it out and read it carefully, then we can make a talk on sunday. If the talk is longer than normal please make it some time before 19.15 since we cant really focus on BWL and have a talk at the same time.

Nice work Kreuz/Tenilia

[Vargen]

Well the zero sum has no inflation which is good, but it has the problem of no DKP being awarded for not killing a boss. This may cause attendance problems on new bosses, though it shouldn't.
The hour system has the major dissadvantage of eventually having noone on positive DKP, making any newly joined person the top DKP holder.

I'll have to think a bit more on the matter.

[KreuZ]

Originally posted by Vargen@Jul 7 2006, 11:58 AM
Well the zero sum has no inflation which is good, but it has the problem of no DKP being awarded for not killing a boss. This may cause attendance problems on new bosses, though it shouldn't.
The hour system has the major dissadvantage of eventually having noone on positive DKP, making any newly joined person the top DKP holder.

I'll have to think a bit more on the matter.

[post=135898]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

But this is the combination of the two systems. So the attendance shouldn't drop that much because being there for 1hour gives you 1/5 of the possible DKP earned for that week.

Everyone should stay just above positive DKP and one of the points of this system is actually to make new people be able to catch up quicker.

[TeaLeaf]

We are assuming attendance will be a problem.  Is that a sound assumption for the future given that we are recruiting additional to each class?

The other thing I did not follow was where the zero inflation comes in.  I see where zero inflation is in a zero sum DKP system, but not in a zero sum hour DKP system as the inflation is the hour DKP itself, thus the zero sum hour DKP system is an inflationary one.  Or did I miss something?

TL.

[KreuZ]

The system shouldn't cause any attendance problems, even less then the current one.

The inflation comes from the fact that the DKP you get is from the Items bought just like in a Zero sum DKP system. But in a Zero sum Hour DKP system the Items bought are calculated together at the end of the week and then divided with the amount of raiders usually raided(probably 40) and then divided again with how many hours we've raided, then that amount will be added to every hour raid we've added that week. So it still works like the Zero sum DKP system except it's added on a hour basis which helps attendance and also makes it more fair.

[Bastet]

hmm if its very hard to get the values right, and the values are all over the place, aint you replacing our current flawed system w/ another flawed system? it will at best just delay the problem again. And i thought we agreed not to do anything to the dkp system for AQ40?

[Padding]

If we are gonna implement a new system, i really think we should use it on all instances. I'd hate to see that we should use our valuable time to manage 2 systems really. So in Kreuz's words im for number 1 of the suggested possibilities.

That said, we need to consider all the DKP people have today. Now im not so much of a lootwhore that i need to be a ahead of every one else, so if that means resetting all DKP to be able to get the DKP system we want, fine by me.

To help the people having a lot of DKP they could get first pick on the next item dropping from somewhere regardless of the actual DKP

I also think that a roof is a necessity in this system so we dont have people hoarding DKP. The system should be kind to the people taking items, not people that are hoarding.

[KreuZ]

There are several options there Bastet.

First one is to reset the whole thing and just start with the new system.

Second one is to use the new system only in AQ40 and Naxxramas

And the third option is to put the new one into the current one changing all the values and such which would not be flawed in any way but would take alot of time to do.

If it would only delay the problem, I wouldn't have started this thread.

[lunares]

I have a question recarding the system you told us about kreuz.
First of all i might have read it wrong if so plz correct me.
Say we have an MC run 4 hours and we DE about 80-90% of the items (seems realictic). for those items you do not get dkp only the hour attendance.
Now next we week we have another go at MC (still 4 hours)  and we only DE 50% (some rare drops and some RG2 members joined cause of attendance). This run you would get more dkp. Is this fair?
Cause both attemps where done in the same time but run 1 is less reward then run 2.

If we decide to implement i would like to see MC and BWL on the old system and the new instance on the new system.

Lunares

[Ragnarh]

Only reason to implement the system is to do it on all the instances.

The goal of the system as I see it is to spread the DKP evenly on the houors spent raiding that week.

You use zerosum to calculate dkp pr drop then divide the dkp on the weeks total houors spent raiding . Then using the dkp pr houor hand out DKP to the players.

Exsapmle as I understand it:

we raid MC for 4 houors 10DKP worth of items/pr raider handed out.
BWL  16 houors    90DKP worth of ithems/pr raider handed out.

DKP pr houor =  100/20 =5

Somone who only attended BWL would get 80
While one who did only mc  would get 20
And both 100

With just zero zum
BWL 90
MC10


You get DKP pr houor you spend insteadof the bosses you were there to see dropp, and the pr houor dkp waries pr week as to how good the dropps were.