Raid 06..06.10 Raid Called

[JonnyAppleSeed]

Well another poor turn out for 25 man

This can't carry on and we will not allow it. As such the officers are looking to cancel 25 man raids until we have a point with enough people willing and capable of progressing through ICC.

We are looking at people having a 66% raid attendance that 2 out of 3 nights to keep status as a raid member. If you can't make that then we need to recruit people who can.

We will also be deducting dkp for people who sign up but don't turn up.. You will lose 7dkp for a no-show

I'll ask people to check the calendar for Tuesday and sign up now .. If we don't have 25 people signed up ready to run we will be looking at canceling the 25man raids

I'm asking the Roll Leaders to look through attendance and pm people who are having problems hitting attendance levels.

When we understand how many people want to raid we will re-evaluate what gaps we will fill and what progress we can make

[Sithvid]

I'd like to voice a few points, some maybe relevant others not but my view non the less.
1. There have been several ten man, main and alt ICC runs, some players facing burn out on their turn out? imo it seems like 25 mans are suffering? i'm not judging just saying it how i see it.
We seem to have a load of lvl 80 players not in raid but on line in guild, the raid is called and many are saved on 2 or 3 alts. I am happy to go with the flow.
2. With the world cup (no offence to scots irish welsh etc) but English Dutch Italian raiders may miss a few raids over the next month.
3. We lost some regular raiders where did they go, if they are still in guild?
4. Last week was half term in UK and people were on hols.
5. We will should stay positive
6. Have we looked at the timing of the raids recently would Monday or Wednesday be better ?

[DFE]

I have a feeling that I have to come up with some ideas. But there is so much to say I simply dont know where should I begin so my post might look a bit... strange.
I dont like raid to be called. Though, in my opinion that is not the worst thing that can happen. That would be a raid with people in it that dont know tactics, dont know their class or they know both but dont perform it properly and thus spoiling the experience for others. That raid would look like those terrible  5 attempts on BQL.
There was pretty good feel of progress a month ago also people were attending. But in last couple of weeks I start to have the feeling that there are simply too many people in raid that get dragged through, or are lootwhores or simply they dont care about the guild too much. If something, I dont like THIS ATTITUDE and one of possible displays of this is how people behave in raid - "I dont give a s**t about single targeting Plagued Scientist (because I dont even know how they affect the other 20+ mobs) so I will just AoE the pack".  "I dont give a s**t about switching targets, others will kill it anyways". "I dont give a **** about reading up on the boss mechanics for 10-15 minutes, it will be explained anyways and people will not be looking bad at me if I screw up because the encounter is new to me" You could have seen WAY TOO MUCH of this recently. I mean, it can happen, but you see the same people doing it all over again. That is frustrating. Yet I wouldnt blame 10 man runs (although  they provide much more fun because these people are usually not there and people doing progression runs in ICC10 generally show up every time for 25 man runs.

I think it is perfect time now for the class leaders to look closely at their respective squads - although it would be hard to achieve for some class leaders since they havent attended much recently - and identify the weaknesses.  In my eyes this would not mean step from casual to hard core, rather it would strengthen the feeling of friendly and still progress-oriented guild. Otherwise I fear the efflux of some very good raiders - and however sorry I would feel for seeing it, I would understand.
This is not intended as a QQ post excusing me quitting from the guild - you will not see me doing that simply because there are way too many people that I like to play with so that not even Deepriedegg, the Light of Dawn would force me to do it. Rather, see this post as a "call for arms" to save this guild as 25 man guild.

Same as Sith, I am too curious where some raiders are. Same as him I think the attendance during World Cup (1 month from Friday on) might be limited. Also there is summer vacation in one month. However, I dont think switch to other raiding days might help.

I am also a bit curious if the lockout extension - which I fully support - might have turned couple of people off. If this is true, it would be a bitter fact to learn that people are actually more concerned about loot than progress. Also I fully support DKP substraction for no-shows and I would go far enough to do it retroactively for this week.  Order has to be restored and rules kept otherwise the future of 25man is unclear at best.

Please, do your best to show that dMr are in better, much better shape than they look like now.

DFE (aka the guy that can only raid twice a week now and still he dares to post this)

[Leemo]

We've discussed the effect of 10mans on the 25man turnout in class leader channel before, and I'm not convinced that it has any significant impact, and no evidence to support the claim has ever been produced.

Obviously, we've lost a few people to real life, and there is a summer downturn to contend with aswell, but a few have told me they've stopped attending 25mans because of the overall standard.

But I'm increasingly feeling that even talking about this on the forums is a futile exercise as the people who most need to read this stuff don't give a crap, to be frank. These are the same people who don't seek to improve their performance, research bosses, class theory or anything. The same people holding us back every week.

This has made me weary of the 25mans recently and reluctant to spend time on them - I spent the last two years (along with others) trying to build and improve a 25man raid group. It's a horrible task which causes significant hair loss and I don't know if I can go through that again.

[TeaLeaf]

Yeah, that hair loss is a killer.  Just look at how Leemo looks these days:



...and for those that read down this far, yes the raid is being actively discussed in officer channels.