Germany bans pre-order games

[Penfold]

https://www.vgr.com/germany-has-banned-pre-orders-for-games-with-no-release-dates/

Makes sense to me.

[Chaosphere]

I wonder if this would have affected Star Citizen in Germany? Only out of curiosity.

Indeed, it does make sense.

[BrotherTobious]

They are taking the gaming commandments seriously

[SithAfrikaan]

I wonder if this would have affected Star Citizen in Germany? Only out of curiosity.

Indeed, it does make sense.

Star Citizen is effectively a charity, I'm sure that's what they'd cite as their defence. You're basically donating money to a cause, like KONY2012 you might get a keychain to say you helped, but realisticly you'd never know if he was caught or not... You might get ships and gameplay along the way, but you'll never know if the game is ever finished in our lifetimes :roflmao:
:norty:

[Penfold]

SC covered itself well against this and refunds (in the States anyway).

https://kotaku.com/star-citizen-backer-sues-to-get-4-500-back-loses-1827666550

[Chaosphere]

Star Citizen is effectively a charity, I'm sure that's what they'd cite as their defence.

Very crafty! Makes sense though, from their point of view.

[smilodon]

A bit OT but

In the UK the Government charges VAT on physical/digital products and tangible services. They don't charge VAT on donations/gifts/charitable giving or anything where they is no specific 'consideration' (i.e. item of value), which is given in exchange for that money.  

Cloud Imperium charge VAT for in-game digital assets and for the base Star Citizen MMO and Squadron 42 games. Apparently this means you have purchased something from them rather than just donated a sum of money to their cause, regardless of what they may or may not say in their T&C's. A consumer cannot be forced to contract out of their statutory rights.

So if SC doesn't provide the goods or services in a "reasonable" time you can claim a breach of contract in that you did not receive the goods. What constitutes a 'reasonable' time is up for debate. If a company does provide a delivery date or estimate then that becomes the reasonable time. Cloud Imperium spoke of a 2014 and then a 2016 release for both elements of the game. It would seem that by 2018 the time may have become 'unreasonable'. It also gives people the option of pursuing their credit card company who are legally jointly responsible if there's been a breach of the contract or peoples consumer rights have been violated.

In the US however a court has decided that a backer couldn't get a refund due to the Cloud Imperium T&Cs. In the UK the law is different and I doubt Cloud Imperium would want to be tested in court here. They may not actually be able to lock down consumers in the EU/UK if EU/UK law doesn't permit them too? While it's an uphill battle you can get your money back if you persist. It does seem that you won't get any Subscription payments back though as you would have had a service provided in the access to private areas early Jump Point, access to the early PTU etc.

I can see the sense behind Germany's law as currently the system is open to serious abuse. Anyone  can offer to sell a product or service they have no intention of actually providing.

I don't think for a minute that this is Cloud Imperium's plan but it would be interesting to see how the German courts view it. They could argue that in 2013 (in my case for example) CS sold a game they said would be delivered in 2016 and also sold digital assets that could be used in that game. CS didn't provide the game or many of the digital assets in 2016, and there is no indication of when it will be delivered. So customers could claim not delivery of their product and get their money back. Maybe? Who knows?

Cloud Imperium's business model has always been a little shaky IMHO, mainly as it's new, innovative and untested in a court.

[Sneakytiger]

interesting as Germany has  the biggest gaming event in the world there every year in cologne. eg. Gamescom.

[Chaosphere]

Cloud Imperium's business model has always been a little shaky IMHO, mainly as it's new, innovative and untested in a court.

Interesting read, smilo. The 'being forced into a contract that is against consumer rights' stings a bit, as yes I could see that coming back to bite them in the backside here. Still, if it hasn't caused them a major issue by now it may be unlikely to going forwards? I do agree that their practices are likely not malicious in any way, just treading new ground.

[albert]

Consumer rights for the physical age are just not good for the digital, crowdfunding internet age. Ok fine if you buy a product or service that is already available and you should have access to immediately.

Got to agree with Smilo, VAT means product means you have paid duty in the country you live in for a product or service and it's collected by the vendor on invoice. In other words the intent to supply. One thing that hurt me (temporarily) recently was a Kickstarter that failed well after the intended delivery date. Ossic X headphones are now a laughing stock of the tech world, and their backers, even moreso. These guys took a pledge for a set of headphones they had already in prototype, delivered nearly a year late 99 developer samples to premium backers and back in April said goodbye, we've gone bust. So that was $6.5m of backers money, from various crowdfunding sites, including delivery costs (hmm should never have been spent!) gone. They had the idea, the working model, then they succumbed to scope creep tier unlocks for more funding, went after big venture capital to try and top it all off, marketed all over the world (probably fun with my money) in the meantime other established brands had already caught up and were releasing the same tech to the world. Most credit card companies have a 13 month period allowed for claiming against a transaction (this was April 2016), otherwise you have to go all hell ******** ape sh9t to your bank, which is how I got my money back. The credit card companies do not cater for multi year crowdfunded delivery periods and how to reclaim the money when the project fails.

Another one for you: https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/valve-shuts-down-trading-for-dutch-customers-1202851947/ and this is the Dutch (and Belgiuns) saying if you buy an item and what you get (e.g. a PUBG crate key) until you pay to open it, you are in effect gambling on the outcome, via RNG or whatever. So this isn't allowed unless you license your product as a gambling game.