Feral druid comparison (Big post warning)

[Sandrion]

NOTE: See summary @ the bottom.
 
Because feral is being improved a lot in TBC I was wondering how we compare to our parent classes, the warrior and the rogue. No this is NOT a "ZOMG feral dr00d pwns, why even have the other classes?!11!!1! NERF plz." thread; which we see at the Blizz forums every so often ... well actually it's the other way around most of the time. Anyway I was just curious about where we stand, with the newest beta changes in mind (which is something that will change anyway).
 
I spend quiet some time calculating this, so I might as well share it with you .
 
TANKING:
First of all everyone knows feral druids can potentially generate astronomical amounts of threat at a very low rage cost, so I'm not going to bother calculating that; we're unrivaled in that aspect. The area in which we where lacking was damage avoidance and the inability to prevent back-to-back crits and crushing blows, but that got improved with the -crit% talent, 4% bear dodge talent and the 11 druid agi = 1% dodge change. So how far apart are we now?
 
Here is an example about the amount of damage taken vs an equal level mob. It compares me (blues + warden staff) in the new situation to a prot warrior wearing 6 might parts + wrath helm/leggings + Quel'Serrar + Aegis of the Bloodlord, complemented with the 'best' ZG/AQ20/MC stuff (+fully enchants). Not necessarily the best, but certainly not the worst gear (and it's clearly biased in the warriors advantage compared to my stuff :narnar: ).
 
Feral druid:
Crit: 0.76% * 2 = 1.52%
Dodge: 28% * -1 = -28%
Miss: 5.5% * -1 = -5.5%
--------
Total: = -31.98% damage
 
Armor: 67.43% = 22.15% total damage taken
 
Before patch this was: -19% damage (after avoidance and crits) and 27.99% total damage taken.
 
Prot warrior:
Crit: 1.72% * 2 = 3.44%
Dodge: 18% * -1 = -18%
Miss: 8% * -1 = -8%
Parry: 14% * -1 = -14%
--------
Total: = -36.56% damage
 
Armor: 60.72% = 24.92% total damage taken
Def stance: 10% = 22.43% total damage taken
 
Block: 20.5% * 125 = -25.6 damage per hit before armor, so -10 damage after taking armor into account. Druids can counter this with imp.LotP (4%), which heals for 24.6HP/sec on average in bear; it compensates more then block reduces (24.6HP/sec > 10HP / 2 sec attack speed; with a 100% block rate they would be equal).
 
The bottom line is, I went from a 24.8% difference to a -1.25% difference in raw melee damage taken! Which is amazing. (It sort of means I will take about the same amount of melee damage as RG2’s MT1, which is just crazy). Prot warriors are naturally still king for a number of reasons, like the fact that we can't replicate the -10% magic damage from defensive stance. However it definitely puts us ahead of DPS warriors, which is where we're supposed to be really (I'm sure they won't mind either :lmfao: ). Note that I also left abilities out of the equation, warriors can push crits and crushing blows of the table at the cost of rage (using shield block); it will make them inch ahead further. Still, druids will be a more then viable alternative, also keeping in mind that we also have a superior amount of health.
Historically speaking, the classes used to be 13% apart vs a hard hitting melee raid boss, when they where both in 'uber' raid gear. I think that gap has nearly been closed, but that doesn't mean the druid will be necessarilyas good at tanking. Warriors just have more tricks up their sleeve.
 
DPS:
This is a bit harder, since rogue DPS and scaling is very spec dependant. I really tried to calculate it, but I gave up after a few hours, it's way to much work; I don't know what kind of influence each skill has on overall DPS, nor was I able to figure out the 'perfect' skill cycle for maximum DPS. That class is damned complex; too many variables, my head hurts ... .
So here is the DPS a feral druid would do, in a fight that lasted infinitely long vs and equal level mob, while keeping Mangle up. I left misses out of the calculation, the total DPS will be about 2% lower in reality because of this (since I got +2%+hit, crits can't miss, doesn't influence bleed damage, missed specials don't have a full energy cost, ...). On the other hand I didn't factor in Blood Frenzy (+1CP on crit) either, will give us about 25% more combo point, which more then compensates for this.
 
Feral druid:
White DPS: 155 * + 26% crit + 15% crit damage + 10% NW = 221.5 DPS
 
Rip(30): 942 + 30% from mangle = 1225 Damage : 41DMG/E
 
Mangle(42): (160% * 155 + 204) + 20% SF + 10% NW + 26% crit + 15% crit damage = 775 Damage (+30% bleed for 12 sec) : 18.5DMG/E
 
Shred(42): (225% * 155 + 180) + 10% NW + 26% crit + 15% crit damage + 30% from mangle = 982 Damage : 23.5DMG/E
 
Tiger's fury(30): 40 + 26% crit + 15% crit damage = 52 * 6 sec = 312 White Damage (+52 * X damage on abilities for 6 sec) : 10DMG/E
--------------------
Mangle+TF(52): (160% * 195 + 204) + 20% SF + 10% NW + 26% crit + 15% crit damage = 885 Damage (+30% bleed for 12 sec) : 17DMG/E
 
Shred+TF(52): (225% * 195 + 180) + 10% NW + 26% crit + 15% crit damage + 30% from mangle = 1149 Damage : 22DMG/E
--------------------
Shred+TFx3 + white+TF + white(156): (1149 * 3) + 312 + (15.6 * 221.5) = 7214 Damage
 
2xMangle + white(84): (982 * 2) + (8.4 * 221.5) = 3825 Damage
 
Rip + white(30): 1225 + (3 * 221.5) = 1890 Damage
--------------------
Omen of clarity: 1xShred / 30 sec + (6 / 27) chance to be during the TF interval = 1010 Damage
--------------------
Cycle: … -> Mangle2 -> wait for energy -> Mangle1 -> wait for energy -> TF -> Shred1 -> Shred2 -> Shred3 -> wait for energy -> Rip(5CP) -> Mangle2 -> ...
 
Total: TF+Shredx3(156) + TF+White + rip(30) + 2xMangle(84) + white + OOC = 13939 / 27 sec = 516 DPS
 
With unlimited energy (Vael): TF+2xMangle + 13xTF+Shred + TF+White = 22861 / 22.5 sec = 1016 DPS
 
This is a pretty simple cycle, it's not the optimal one; but on the other hand this is just a theoretical average. I believe this amount of DPS is definitely sustainable. In reality it will be a bit higher because you start with a full energy bar, pushing you just over 600 DPS in the shorter fights (the above calculation assumes the energy bar is empty to begin with).
In short fights powershifts can slightly push the total DPS up as well. For those that don't know what a powershift is: it's a double shapeshift (cat->caster->cat) sacrificing mana and one white damage hit for 40 energy, giving you nearly one additional shred attack; this is particularly useful for those with the 'free shifting for X sec' trinket from Vael.
 
This total DPS will be reduced by about 25-30% percent in a raid setting because of armor, with sunder and faerie fire up hardly any boss will be above 30% mitigation. Cat's do it from behind, just like rogues, so block and parry are not an issue (I'm not sure about dodge, I think attacks from behind can be dodged :unsure: ).
 
We also give the group a 5% increase in crits chance, a permanent HoT that gives about 20-25HP/sec to rouges, we give a 30% to all bleed damage buff to the entire raid (on every mob that 'lives') and can keep faerie fire up for free (-505 Armor). So even if we do only +/- 80% of the damage of a rouge, the overall raid damage would increase while still being able to pop out to heal, battle res, innervate or tank when needed or when this is required for a certain fight.
 
Realistically speaking, after taking all the reductions, raid buffs and pots into account, you'll probably be looking at around 350 DPS and 5% more DPS for every additional party member because of LotP. And this is just me wearing mainly blue gear!
 
How does this compare to a rogue? I honestly can’t say. I tried some rogue DPS calculators, but most of the time it doesn’t say how they got to the results, whether or not they deducted armor, dodge, glancing blows, what other special skills they are using and so on….
 
In terms of scaling:
The classes scale about the same before taking talents into account. A rouge's weapon speed is slower, but the multiplier on druid abilities is higher. However after taking talents into account a rogue's DPS scales better, since the class's talents are more geared towards DPS; opposed to those of the druid that has one tree that reinforces both forms. But that isn't everything, druids get 2.23 AP per strength and 1.03 AP per agility to compensate this and we will get +feralAP on our weapons to bring them on par with the those of the other melee classes.
 
Taking all of this into consideration, I don't think the overall scalability will be far apart; it will mostly depend on the availability of gear. Which is something I'm not too worried about tbh.
 
Conclusion:
The intent of the balance changes in TBC was to enable guilds to pick people for certain roles based on skill and NOT directly based on their class. The parent classes are no longer 'better' then the hybrids that specialized themselves to fulfill a specific role, they're just different. They can be just as effective, but they vary in the kind of additional utility they bring to the table.
 
 
The down side it that every noob druid will go feral, because it's pretty powerfull in it's 'new and improved' state. Change it back, I want be be special dammit :lmfao: !
 
Summary:
-Bear druids will take nearly as little damage as warriors. We still can't avoid back-to-back crits, but we do have more health to absord those.
-Cat druids do shitloads of damage and support the raid in other ways with (Imp.)LotP and the Mangle debuff. Our unbuffed and unmitigated DPS is 516 (sustainable) and 1016 on Vael. Calculated with only 1203 AP and 26% crit).
-There is no valid reason left to treat druids as a healer class in raids, we will become what we where supposed to be.
-If you want to know more, read the rest of the post :narnar: .

[Akall]

I must admit that against a feral druid I'm, most of the times, killed in a few seconds (me being Balance). This, from one side, makes me very happy: now two of our trees can be used well in raids but on the other side it makes me think that balance still needs work from the survival and aggro sides.

Now balance druids have a nice DPS output but but we still lack of something that makes us viable in pvp and in pve.

From the raid viability the only talent is Imp. FF that makes FF icrease the % of hit by melee/ranged on the target by 3. Now 3% is nothing and compared with the aura of hunters is a joke.

I can nuke a target for 2800 - fact - by doing this I generate an incredible ammount of threat (I did a few runs in Strath on the PTR and most of the times I ended up tanking the MT target no matter how many sunder armor the target had or for how much the tank was left alone building aggro - 2/3 crits == aggro on the Moonkin :sideways:) and without ANY talent that reduces threat Balance druids will have to be VERY carefull during boss fights...

Our 41p Balance talent it might be nice but ATM is too too weak: my treants can hit critically for 250(x3 Treants) BUT  
   A) against locks/mages they are useless, every mage/lock with more than 2 brain cells will AoE/fear/freeze them down in less than 2 secs.
   B) against mail/plate their damage is reduced by a big ammount going fro 100 hit to 45-50 hit making them just a waste of mana.
   C)useless against bosses with aoe or in a room with mobs that could be aggroed (as these treants just go around and attack all mobs in their range)

And last but not least Balance druids have NO interruption skills. All other classes have (and now also 1 tree of druids talents) but Balance druids have none! A druid in Moonkin form to stop a cast has 2 choices:
   A)hope in the 15% chance-on-hit stun of Starfire (procs on this are very low and, in anyway, you'll have to wait that your 3sec cast is over to prevent someone to finish his cast or
   B)shift out from moonkin, shift in bearform wait to generate rage and use bash (that most of the times MISS the target) all this spending 'only' 1k mana more or less.

I might blind and don't see a crucial thing that will make druids extremely overpowered with some sort of cast retarding skill in moonkin form but, as I said before, all other classes have one -these being pure DPS classes or hybrid ones: Silence, Fear, Hammer of Justice, Stuns, Shocks and so on...

BC beta is still on so I really hope we will get something new in the next weeks that will make  Owlbeasts Druids a nice choice in both PVP and PVE

[Sandrion]

You're right, balance could get some more love, but it has definately improved.
 
There are still two main problems with it atm:
 
Absence of aggro management skills / abilities / talents:
You've got a whole load of armor, so if you aggro something in a 5 man run it's not that much of a problem. In raids this definately is a problem. You can go to cat form and cower to reduce aggro, but that's just silly.
 
Lacking AoE ability:
We have one AoE skill on a 1 min cooldown, barkskin got nerfed and now has a 2 min cooldown. Pretty much sucks :thumbsdown: .