Signups and Called Raids

[Azunai]

I just wanted to say a few things about the whole situation of calling raids all the time.

First off, we have refueled the recruitment fires. DPS is still the biggest need, but we can also use maybe an additional healer and tank. We have however 2 applications pending for those last 2 roles so keep that in mind. If you know friendly and dedicated people, point them our way, and we as officers keep our eyes open as well of course.

Second, regarding signups: Last night was another let-down, even though we went to Ulduar 10 man in the end. A let-down because we had to call a 25man raid again due to lack of people. Now it would be annoying yet unfortunate if only 18 or so people signed up, but the calendar said 24 people. Yet in the end we only had roughly 18 to 19 folks online in time.

There's some things to say about this. First of all last night was quite unlucky as Necro was stuck at work, Evo had to afk at the start, Bastila's Ulduar went tits up, Pilus was stuck in traffic, yadayada. But that still left at least 5 signups unaccounted for.

I realise that the guild philosophy is such that our setup is based around people who have to work late and not everyone can be here 20.00 GT sharp so it's hard to comment on this, but please only signup to a raid if you're positive you're going to be around, and then please have the courtesy to indeed show up and raid. Of course there's always the chance something happens that gets in the way, and for this we're trying to recruit more people too, but if you're not sure, please don't sign up. It means we know what we're up against beforehand, and it also means people don't get their hopes up only to be let down when it turns out there's only 65% of the required people online at invite time.

It's a shame the Blizzard calendar does not (yet) support a 'maybe' option, but I know from experience now that some people have the habit of signing up and not always showing up, or not signing up and showing up early (the latter is good of course!). But please, try to only sign up when you're absolutely sure you're going to be there - even if it's a couple of minutes late, you can always let officers know.

Thanks!

[Azunai]

A little followup on this, in the light of tonight's somewhat disappointing start. I wanted to explain just what the whole deal was tonight as some people were on TS but not ingame, others vice versa etc., so just so it's clear for everyone how things went.

At 20:00 I invited whoever was on the list. That was probably not a smart thing to do as I knew it was going to come down to a 10man at the most anyway, so I might have ended up having to swap people around and leave them emptyhanded after getting their hopes up. The original idea, based on the fact there were yet again only ~15 people signed up, was to head for Ulduar 10man. With a group of good people we would surely progress in there, and get some neat upgrades if bosses were downed, or at least more experience on the bosses. But we lacked tanks to do just that. I did see Baekongen signed up, so after some consultation with the other officers, I decided to disband the group I had already set up, wait for Baekongen to log on, then reform a group.

The wait took til about 20:25 while we were searching for other options, and the only viable one seemed a Naxx10 with some alts, of which one would be a tank. At about 20:45, right when we were about to kick that group off, Baekongen logged and things got messy, as half the people didn't know what was happening (we had discussed most things via TS, and some had already left once I disbanded that 1st group). But we had just gathered a group to head into Naxx. We would have gone on with that if it didn't turn out both me and Baekongen were saved to the place from a terrible PuG earlier :doh:, so we ended up going Ulduar after all.

In the end we had a very good raid in there, killed 2 new bosses (great job everyone!). The point I want to get across however is that after all the debate of where to go (~50 mins), when we finally decided on something I hope people will respect that decision. We can't just magically conjure up people out of the sky to come raid with us, and we do have to make a decision at some point about what to do. We decided upon Naxx, had a group going, and that would have been it under different circumstances. Doing invites is not just a matter of taking whoever you can get, or taking only those with the best gear or anything. It's a delicate matter since you have to take into account not just key classes, but people's feelings as well. This is especially true when you're looking at a 25man guild forced to do 10mans because of low turnup, and you have to decide who gets to come out of the 16 or so that were available. I for one hate that part because there's always some people left out even though they freed space to come raid. It's different from when you're dealing with a 25man group and reserves, in which case people know what to expect.

That said, we've advertised recruitment again, but people have to come to us, we can't go in a shop and buy them or anything (if only we could! :narnar:). So again, if you do heroics with a great player who you think would be a good addition to the team, poke them and point them our way.

[burmyhermy]

sounds like there are lot of upset peeps now :doh:

[Améthyst]

Just a few observations of last night from my perspective.

I wanted to explain just what the whole deal was tonight as some people were on TS but not ingame, others vice versa etc., so just so it's clear for everyone how things went.

We seem to get a lot of this cross talk with only a few of us in both places & paying attention to both conversations.  I myself find it confusing so I can imagine it would be even worse for those officers trying to sort out a raid as they also have another two channels of talk available ie officers chat in game & officers chat on ts.  Can we not just say if you are signed up to raid get onto TS or even if you want to raid get onto TS then deal with it in one place?

The original idea, based on the fact there were yet again only ~15 people signed up, was to head for Ulduar 10man. With a group of good people we would surely progress in there, and get some neat upgrades if bosses were downed, or at least more experience on the bosses.

This feels a bit like favouritism tbh.  I understand what you are getting at but since Ulduar came along it has felt a bit like you only get to go if you are experienced or considered the best.  Surely we should all be going?  Yes, I understand the whole did they signup?, are they online?, is their gear good enough? debates but as a guild we all need to be learning these tactics & progressing not just a few of us?

But we lacked tanks to do just that. I did see Baekongen signed up, so after some consultation with the other officers, I decided to disband the group I had already set up, wait for Baekongen to log on, then reform a group.

This I do not understand at all as we already had Sleepyy who offered to come on one of his tanks so why wait for Baekongen?  At that point we had no idea if he was going to show up, imo we could of already been in Ulduar kicking The Iron Council's butt instead of waiting.  Ok, yes he is a tank, but we cannot just sit round waiting for people to log on if they are late then we need to move on, if they sign but don't show the rest of us should not pay for it by sitting round waiting to do something.

Personally I feel we need more clear raid rules & to stick to them regardless.  Obviously there is always going to be an exception to the rule but we don't seem to be getting anywhere by debating everything over ts, guild chat, etc.  I also know how hard it is to tell people they are not coming or not invite them but this is part of belonging to a raid guild we will not all be going all the time.

One of the ideas put forward last night by Limpsy was that we did Ulduar on a Sunday when the majority of our raiders appear.  That way we could have 25 man runs in there with even better gear!  I back that idea myself as in the past few weeks we rarely get enough people to raid 10 man raids on Tuesdays (sidenote: are we changing that raid day since I have not seen anything said following our poll?) Thursdays seem to fair a bit better but the majority of us tend to show up in quantity on a Sunday.  We could then run Naxx for gearing up purposes on the other nights & maybe involve alts, friends or even dare I say it a few pugs!

[Limps]

Well ill like to say that clearly there are a problem with wich content we raid wich days. like Améthyst also say, sunday should really not be naxx day.
we should do ulduar 25 or two 10 man groups, first of all its better gear then naxx 25, and i am pretty sure people are getting tired of farming naxx on sunday's.
you must admit there is a problem when attendence has dropped as it has, for what ever reason. i think we need to look at it from that angle and find out why, maybe do a poll that ask "what do you wanna raid, on what day".
We are a good bunch of people and very good players, i really think we should forget about what happend and see what we can do to make raids possible again. because as it is now even 25 man naxx is not an option, and if we need to recruit then lets not just do it over server forum but also in game i do not mean to recruit all but there are many ways of asking questions to find out if he/she is a raider. and if people sign up for raids it should really be because they can and want to raid, not turning up makes raiding impossible. And if people sign up many times and dont turn up it is a problem (It can happend of course), wich I mean need to be sortet because its just not ok at least decline instead of accept time after time and not turn up.

We are a damn good bunch of players, lets do what is needed to get this to work. and if it need changes then lets do them.

best regards,

Limps

[JonnyAppleSeed]

All good points here is my 2p

Ts should never be a problem.. We use it we cant raid without it. Get on early and hang around. People should know that if thay are raiding be on that toon in time for invites. With the low attendance at the moment its not kicking up a problem but lets be frank, if 30 people have signed up and are ready to roll you will loose a spot if you are not around in time

We are open for recuritment .. You lot are the fingers in pies... friends known players reletives temp them in with sexual favors or cake whatever we need  


Tues is a pain for a 3rd raid day... Setting up a 10 man is a last resort. In effect the planned raid is cancled pack ya bags and go home.. If somthing can be salvaged then its a bonus.


We also need to tighten up on our availability ... I see both available players not around and players wanting to join without signing up... Necro has set up an awsome raid calender tool use it. From that we can decide where to go and what to focus on

[Sithvid]

:2cents:
Perhaps we should try for just 2 Raid nights a week instead of 3.
Tuesday and Thursday in addition to Sunday seems to be too much of a drain on the group currently. ?

We have lost a couple of our ubiquitous raiders over the last month and need a few more.

RL issues have but a drain on my attendance in the last 2 weeks but this is almost over.
We have 2 guys Trinum and Dannage, who although are enjoying their rise and the journey to lvl 80, are still in the mid 50's and could also do with some Guild Boosts. They have TBS and WOTLK ready and will be both be great when we get them raiding with us.

I think that its healthy to discuss in the open forum, as adults and  I for one encourage others to give input.

[Grimnar]

Well i am keeping it short as i think most stuff has already been said...
 
But can you guys keep in mind  that some people are busy with exams etc.
 
Also the big party's have and are going to happen (party season) As we had here in Holland 4th and 5th of may (4th not party time but the 5th was) Plus the other party's that are going on all over the world.
 
Also holiday season is also comming again so the comming time we will have people short, people that normally are avail for raiding.
 
I have to say that i dunno about the tuesday part as somehow we have always to low numbers on that day...
 
oohh yeah the nice weather also works against WoW...
 
 
 
 
 
For myself  bring on the fun:narnar:

[Gandalf]

Yup, all very valid points and we are trying to get raids together when we have the numbers but as mentioned above, the good weather we are having along with exam time, is taking a toll on attendance.

Please bear with us, we'll be back to full strength before you know it

[Azunai]

Just a few observations of last night from my perspective.



We seem to get a lot of this cross talk with only a few of us in both places & paying attention to both conversations.  I myself find it confusing so I can imagine it would be even worse for those officers trying to sort out a raid as they also have another two channels of talk available ie officers chat in game & officers chat on ts.  Can we not just say if you are signed up to raid get onto TS or even if you want to raid get onto TS then deal with it in one place?



This feels a bit like favouritism tbh.  I understand what you are getting at but since Ulduar came along it has felt a bit like you only get to go if you are experienced or considered the best.  Surely we should all be going?  Yes, I understand the whole did they signup?, are they online?, is their gear good enough? debates but as a guild we all need to be learning these tactics & progressing not just a few of us?



This I do not understand at all as we already had Sleepyy who offered to come on one of his tanks so why wait for Baekongen?  At that point we had no idea if he was going to show up, imo we could of already been in Ulduar kicking The Iron Council's butt instead of waiting.  Ok, yes he is a tank, but we cannot just sit round waiting for people to log on if they are late then we need to move on, if they sign but don't show the rest of us should not pay for it by sitting round waiting to do something.

Personally I feel we need more clear raid rules & to stick to them regardless.  Obviously there is always going to be an exception to the rule but we don't seem to be getting anywhere by debating everything over ts, guild chat, etc.  I also know how hard it is to tell people they are not coming or not invite them but this is part of belonging to a raid guild we will not all be going all the time.

One of the ideas put forward last night by Limpsy was that we did Ulduar on a Sunday when the majority of our raiders appear.  That way we could have 25 man runs in there with even better gear!  I back that idea myself as in the past few weeks we rarely get enough people to raid 10 man raids on Tuesdays (sidenote: are we changing that raid day since I have not seen anything said following our poll?) Thursdays seem to fair a bit better but the majority of us tend to show up in quantity on a Sunday.  We could then run Naxx for gearing up purposes on the other nights & maybe involve alts, friends or even dare I say it a few pugs!

Excuse the wall of text due to quotage but it's late and I'm too lazy to format it so that only the parts I want to reflect on show.

Regarding TS, what you say is absolutely right, but I didn't think it would be necessary to turn into a rule. It seems to me like it's common sense to log onto TS and stay logged onto it until the high word is out that there's definetly not going to be a raid at all (or that a raid has actually taken place and someone says it's call time ). TS and the Officer Chat ingame is what we use to discuss what to do, and it's by far the easiest to talk via TS than having to type out everything, since as this thread shows, things can get very complex.

Doing Ulduar on a sunday is something we are pursuing. The problem with that however (I think) is that unless you have 25 (24 bare minimum I'd say) properly geared people, at this point, we're not going to get far. FL will probably be doable, but stuff like an enrage timer on Razorscale or XT-002 will be quite troublesome if you lack 2 or 3 dps.

Regarding Sleepyy's tank offer... I don't know if it's true, and to be entirely honest I did not bother to check which was probably wrong, but when the idea was to go Ulduar 10 we figured Sleepyy's gear would not wax up to the high damage intake in there. Naxx on the other hand would have been fine probably. But again, I should have probably checked on that.

Another thing I want to apologize for (and very much so since I didn't realise it until afternoon today) is that we could have gone Naxx10 regardless. The reason we went to Ulduar was because we (or at least I) thought we would not have the tanks for Naxx since both me and Baekongen were saved. I just didn't stop to think how saved we were. We only downed Anub'rekhan in there so we could have just gone on with that ID (provided that shabby PuG hadn't gone and cleared it out, but I doubt that) with me or Baekongen as leader.

Regarding favoritism, I didn't mean to imply a select group of people. Any of the people online would have qualified for 'good people'. Wrong choice of words I guess :doh: If we were to be condemned to do 10mans instead of 25 on a weekly basis, a rotation will of course be applied to ensure it's not always the same people who get to go and the same people who are left out.

Regarding rules, naturally there are/should be rules. I just find it very hard to apply some of them when there's very little luxury in terms of people attending. For example, can you add a rule saying 'if you don't use the calendar you don't get to come on the next raid' to name but a random thing? Cause in the current situation, if we tell someone he can't come, it's just as much our loss as that person's. It seems that before applying rules to the raidgroup, we need to make sure there's actually a fully functional raidgroup to apply those rules to.

It's really annoying because I try to do what's best for everyone whenever I fire up invites. I really have it in high concern not to shaft anyone when they turn up for a raidnight, and I'm really bad at turning people down. That often leads to lengthy train of thoughts about who to take and what to do, which in turn leads to people getting impatient and confused, and the whole thing backfires in my face. :doh: I'm not much for politics, I'm more the guy who shouts at people for standing in the Fire(tm) and such during the raid itself .

Anyway, this thread is spinning out of control a bit, cause now we made poor Merk think the guild is going to hell in a handbasket, which I would really say is not the case :narnar:

[Baylien]

I think we are going in the right direction. We have no choice but to recruit, this was the case for a while. Shame we can't keep using the slow recruitment to make sure we had competent players. I guess we will have to take people on trial, and give them the benefit of the doubt and see potential.
It's not my place to say the way things should be done, but we have to give 'The management' time to resolve things I'm sure there is a lot we don't see that goes into trying to keep the ship floating or something hehe.
My raiding experience has been far more social for me with you guys than my previous raid guilds(Which were great). I feel far more laid back without affecting my efforts and focus.
Just to put it out there..... I work late every other Tuesday, other than that I can maintain pretty much full attendance, saying that I'll happily sit outside the instance for a bit if you wish to try new people
We'l find our way to focus and dedication without losing the character or the guild, just gotta keep going, it will be totally worth it when we get rolling again!

[TeaLeaf]

I think DMR are doing well.  Just prior to the usual seasonal drop-off in attendance you had regular 25 mans under way, but only just in terms of member numbers.  So it is to be expected that when attendance drops off in May (and in my experience it will continue to be patchy now until the end of August) you will need a greater number of people to tide you over and allow 25 man raids to continue.  The answer is to recruit sufficiently or to have an arrangement with another guild to ensure that things continue and 'the show goes on'.  Yes Council have a responsibility to drive recruitment, but the most effective recruitment is via MEMBERS who already know people and getting them to apply and join us.  Members need to drive recruitment as much if not more so than Council.

Alts in Raids
With dual spec, it should be possible to replace that missing tank or missing healer or missing dps if you have the numbers.  Low numbers are the problem.  Ulduar does also represent a different challenge though, especially for tanks as fights push your gear unlike the cakewalk that is Naxx.  Unless an alt is very well geared like a main it will struggle in Ulduar, especially if it is a tank.  The tank won't notice it especially, but your healers will as spike damage goes through the roof.

Teamspeak
There is a reason that all top raid guilds use voice comunication.  If you want to be able to contribute to the raid effectively then make sure you are on TS before and during the raid, there is no excuse, it's free.  Without TS you are hurting your fellow raiders with your inability to interract with them properly.


DMR is doing well, just push the recruitment, find friends or players we know and get them to join up to push us through the summer season.

Ulduar10 loot > Naxx25 loot
Ulduar25 needs Naxx25/Ulduar10 loot.



TL.

[Tirkad]

As TL said, a solution to our raid problem is recruitment. However, based on my experience in this game, it will take a bit to thicken our lines, so I'd like you to consider the fact that in ulduar 25, with the only exception of the first boss, there are some chances to get tailoring/leatherworker/blacksmith patterns for BoE gear, that will help a lot to gear up people without waiting for a run or a lucky drop. The big mats are dropped from the same bosses (i'm referring to [ITEM]45087[/ITEM]).
Finally, I would like to add something to the discussion about naxx25 and ulduar 10/25 gear. It's true that the gear found in ulduar (both 10 and 25) is usually better than the one found in naxx25, however if we are aiming exclusively on gearing up, naxx25 offers more chances at the moment, becouse we can kill every boss in one night, and all the gear will go to the people less geared up, while when raiding ulduar we're going to have a lot less bosses down, with the loot needed by everyone.