How can I minmax my performance as a Class Leader/Role Leader

[TeaLeaf]

I'd thought I would throw this into the CL section as I think it crosses over into what DMR Council have been trying to get CLs/Role Leaders to do in terms of performance monitoring and managing the raid members that fall under your control.  A lot of this needs digging around and theorycrafting, but most of all it needs discussion amongst yourselves to form some minmax conclusions which should help you provide some direction to the discussions you then have with your raiders.

Personally I think these are the types of debates CLs need to be prompting to help minmax the raid.  A 'minmax' debate is one where you work out how to maximise the raid dps and minimise the amount of damage taken and thus healing needed for a particular encounter.  It can cover group set ups, buffs, debuffs, talent specs etc.  Anything that produces a better minmax number is fair game for discussion.

Here's an example which I will post out in the ranged dps forums.  I'd love to see this type of proactive engagement between CLs and their raiders.  

Over to you.

Scorpid Sting or Insect Swarm?

Insect Swarm   Rank 7
8% of base mana   30 yd range
Instant cast
The enemy target is swarmed by insects, decreasing their chance to hit with melee and ranged attacks by 3% and causing 1290 Nature damage over 12 sec.

Scorpid Sting
11% of base mana   5 - 35 yd range
Instant cast
Requires Ranged Weapon
Stings the target, reducing chance to hit with melee and ranged attacks by 3% for 20 sec.  Only one Sting per Hunter can be active on any one target.

Where a boss is hitting hard enough then the additional 3% miss is a huge raid boost.  For a tank to gain an additional 3% miss rate needs a massive amount of stat rating points.

3% miss is actually more than 3% less damage.  
If you assume your MT has say 55% avoidance then the the extra 3% miss reduces their chance of being hit from 45% to 42%.  That's a decrease of 7.5%.
But wait!  There's more:
Spike damage kills, Miss helps avoid & reduce spike damage.  
If an MT has a 45% chance to get hit then there is a 20.25% chance to get hit twice in a row.  
If you have debuffed the boss then the extra 3% miss rate decreases the chance of getting hit twice in a row by 13% (to 17.6% from 20.25%)
The chance of getting hit 3 times in a row with a debuffed boss is reduced from almost 19% ( from 9.1% to just 7.4%).  
This is a massive survivability gain where 2-3 hits might otherwise kill a tank.

Question 1
Should the debuff be up on bosses?

1. Assuming they hit hard enough to kill a tank in say 2-3 hits, then I would say yes.  It helps iron out those RNG spike damage situations.

However,

-I have not seen any DMR hunters using Scorpid sting
- all DMR boomkins currently use Glyph of Insect Swarm and therefore do NOT debuff the boss.

Increases the damage of your Insect Swarm ability by 30%, but it no longer affects your victim's chance to hit.

When a boomkin glyphs for Insect Swarm they maybe see an extra 300 damage extra per tick (not major but better than nothing).  

When a hunter stops using serpent sting they almost always lose a lot more than 300 damage per tick because of other cross-ability buffs.


Question 2:
Who should do it?


My Answers:
1. Yes.  Adding 3% miss to a boss is massive (see above).  

2. Boomkins should do it.  You need to crunch the numbers here, but unless you are in an unusually unbalanced situation then hunters generally lose a lot more dps by having to put Scorpid Sting up than a boomkin would lose by having to go without the Glyph of Insect Swarm.  Refer to EJ or any number of other sites for the theorycraft behind this.


Conclusion
So how does this affect DMR?
Current situation:
All DMR boomkins use Insect Swarm and have glyphed for Insect Swarm.
I've not seen a log where a DMR hunter uses Scorpid Sting.

So I would argue that in order to improve raid performance and assuming it is not a trivial boss (ie is hitting hard enough) then by default:

-the debuff should be provided by a boomkin (ie should remove the Glyph of Insect Swarm and replace it with something else - carry a stock of both Insect Swarm & the chosen replacement glyphs)
-where a boomkin is not available then a hunter takes over and keeps up Scorpid Sting (which hunter defined by spec and the debuff should be provided by a BM, SV, or MM hunter in that order of preference - refer to theorycraft on why).

How would you answer?

[TeaLeaf]

Jim, I see you answered 'No the debuff is not needed' in the public thread.  I'd be interested in how you would reason that when asked by another raider please.  I was hoping that we would see an active discussion rather than just a vote though.  Different points of view are valuable and we can learn from them, so your reasoning is important as anyone else's.  I set out my reasoning for my conclusion, I'd be interested to know how you reached yours.

[Jim]

Well was talking to garrit about it and i said that:

1) How many bosses do we know (in the current game excluding algalon) that can kill a tank in 2 / 3 hits? (Feel free to name some, as Garrit said Kologarn and beyond)

2) Tanks dont get hit that often enough, so reducing that chance even more is gonna make the healers drift off for when its important.... i have to admit that this happens to me occasionally where i drift off and glance at my TV because all i notice on a tank is a chain of Dodge / parries / blocks then a damage then back to a chain.....

Obviously this is gonna change when ICC is implemented with the (as far as i know) - 20% dodge nerf so until that time comes i dont think its that important enough... but in hindsight it could be an excellent chance for druids / hunters to start putting it up now so that they have practise making sure its up, and refreshing etc for when ICC comes around...

Jim

[TeaLeaf]

See public reply.  I'm disappointed Jim.

[Jim]

fair enough, at least i was honest enough to admit it

[Grimnar]

Well first of all i can get this wrong, as i didn't really understood all. and waited with a reply since i noticed that poll. I havn't voted on it and probally won't at least for now. As my own feeling after reading this says that i am missing an option in that poll.
But then again i have to say this topic was/is a bit hard for me to understand.
 
But here is what i thought of directly after reading.
 
If it makes the boss hit us lesser then he does now or anything that way.. Then yeah we should use it.
But also on the other hand our raid group jumps into my mind about how the setup is etc. Honestly said we don't have a raid group out there.
Now i know some people get ****ed about that thing said but think about this:
 
We have a little core of members who are raiding every raid 3 times a week. The rest is just spot filling...   We have a small team that knows eachother and what they can do etc. We don't have a team going in everyraid..  There are a few of us that still need to carry to many members with us.
 
But back on this topic, sure we can ask people to do it, but we can't expect to have this thing going on every raid as we don't have 1 raid team with the same members going to raid every time.
 
We aint a hardcore raiding guild, as we have a few members that just play from time to time and have some fun/laughs but most of the time they are needed to get a 25 man run going.

[Limps]

Sith has removed the glyph for now so the hit on tank should be 3 % less, he know it should be the tank target and on boss fights the boss.

and when it comes to debuff on target in my case a boss its very important to have a rotation of debuff because when eclipse procs u need the debuff of the proc moonfire = starfire, insect swarm = wrath. you do this to maximize damage some say its not important but i would say it is.
so u have 2 ways of doing damage as boomkin (in my view) either start with iff (improved faeri fire), insect swarm, wrath untill eclipse procs or iff, moonfire, starfire until eclipse procs.
in eclipse proc u use moonfire = starfire, insect swarm = wrath. so hit your proc debuff example insect swarm, spam wrath untill new eclipse will proc for the most times a new eclipse will proc and back to starfire this rince and repeat the cycle. so allways have the debuff up for you eclipse proc moonfire = starfire, insect swarm = wrath.
but i tend to some time keep moonfire up atm as it gives a nice buff of 200 crit because of a relic.

there is a 3'rd kind of boomkin its the one who dont give a ... and just nuke without insect swarm or moonfire regardless to eclipse procs i do not know the damage much but what i tried was not even close to the damage from a boomkin with eclipse/debuff rotation.