Is this an end to social raiding?

[Améthyst]

After much thought, deliberation and torment I have decided to stop raiding with dMr and become a social member, if I am still welcome in our Guild.
There are two main reasons for this ââ,¬â€œ

1.   I have come to dislike the very nature and structure of dMr raids in the last 6 months.
2.   I have a real life once more and plan to enjoy it.

I feel that dMr has gone far beyond its original designation as a social raiding guild. It has become a competitive raiding guild which does not suit my wants or needs in the game.
Without pointing fingers, my main concerns about the raiding side of things  come in many different situations which have arose in the last 6 months, to name a few -

ââ,¬Â¢   The ââ,¬Å"new & improvedââ,¬Â dkp system for loot.
ââ,¬Â¢   General discontentment and nonstop whispers during raids.
ââ,¬Â¢   TS being swamped with ââ,¬Ëœfriendlyââ,¬â,,¢ repetitive warnings of what not to do or say.
ââ,¬Â¢   Social members being taken into raids in preference to established raid members.
ââ,¬Â¢   The absence of 10-man Guild raids.
ââ,¬Â¢   Cliques of members  grouping up to gear up instead of the whole raid group helping gear up those members who can only be online at certain times
ââ,¬Â¢   Constant comparison between our ââ,¬Ëœsocialââ,¬â,,¢ raiding and top raiding guilds and the occasional inclusion of members of other guilds to help ââ,¬Ëœshow us the ropesââ,¬â,,¢.
ââ,¬Â¢   Officers leaving and the introduction of class leaders.
ââ,¬Â¢   Social members and raiders alts being ignored when saying hello or goodnight on guild chat.
ââ,¬Â¢   And finally on a personal note, the constant whispers from a certain guild member to find out about my dps, my apparent lack of raiding enthusiasm, and queries about my gear, potions, food, etc - not actually being interested in helping, but rather to aid their own acceptance back into the fold.

I miss the comradely manner in which we used to raid.  The giggles, laughs, jokes, chat, understanding about others having ââ,¬Ëœreal livesââ,¬â,,¢ and Sheep yelling ââ,¬Ëœgo kill shitââ,¬â,,¢ at us!  I am saddened that the vast majority of guild chat is now about raids, gear, etc, while the majority of our social members are not even acknowledged by a simple response to their hellos.   I am appalled by the manner in which we are encouraged to gear up but discouraged from speaking out loud during our raids, especially about tactics. Anyone could have a good idea, be it novice or old hand. You never know when someone will think outside the box and come up with a novel solution to a problem.

Améthyst and dMr have been a haven for me during very bad personal times (divorce, bankruptcy, violence, house moving and a suicide attempt by one of my sons).  Not once during this whole period of time did I ever feel judged or persecuted by any guild members, in fact many were more than willing to let me vent when I needed it and buy me virtual beers at the bar following raids to ensure I was still sane and OK.  

I have found that since I have once more stepped into the breach of real life and was found by a wonderful man, that my time in dMr has been harried by constant speculation about my raiding ability until  eventually I have felt ignored because I dared play another character.  I am also saddened that some guild members have assumed that my lack of raiding has been due to this wonderful man and have harassed him about it. It is he who is probably more encouraging about my WoW play than anyone I have ever met!  I am more than capable of making my own mind up about how and when I play the game.

While I fully understand that progress is important for moral and a sense of achievement, I do believe we have lost sight of the whole social nature of dMr and the greater group we are associated with dMw.

[Jim]

Its a shame to see you drop down to Social member Gill, after listening to you saying how you were excited to come back to raiding just a shame you're not happy I'm sorry about bothering you about your gear etc but i was interested in helping you

On a side note i actually Agree with most of what Gill has said in her post, especially about

ââ,¬Â¢ Social members and raiders alts being ignored when saying hello or goodnight on guild chat.

i for one am always trying to say hi / bye to people when they log on / off but if its during a raid sometimes i find it hard to say it, because of focusing....

Also to a lesser extent

ââ,¬Â¢ The absence of 10-man Guild raids.

Since ICC10 man has come out Valdeko has been spot on in organising 10 mans for our benefit, and it still seems like people dont seem interested in them, bar the people that actually show up week after week to clear the content... I'm not having a dig at anyone but people just dont seem fussed, being 100% honest its starting to feel like Ulduar all over again, which is a real shame....

I see people in guild / whispers going "UGH its gonna take FOREVER for me to get for " when they don't even offer to join a 10 man.... OK OK if you have other commitments due to RL then thats fine, but when people are in guild just sitting there and aren't interested it Grinds my Gears :@

But yeah, back on topic Hope you're still about Gill, and take care... i'm sure i'll still talk to you on MSN

Peace, Jim <3

[Sithvid]

Nice post.
We do indeed need to look at the basics of how the guild runs. One of the best things about dmw is we are encouraged to vent constructively.

Point by point response
* I think dkp masks some of the issues we have I personally like it.
* Agreed but its part of the game
* I dont learn that way and think  macros should be fun.
* Wrong and we do have a history of pulling in outsiders, BUT it has helped and sometimes we would have had no raid.
 *I love the idea of 10 man ICC but cant raid 6 nights a week, would like to see a Tues or Thurs swap for 10 man.
* Not sure
* Ignore the compare...am i getting better? yes move on..
* Officers leaving replace them.. I vote AME...
* We are all guilty of that... if im in 5 man I ignore the fire alarm
* Ignore him/her or post the banal chat in guild for all to see ?
The rest of the post i feel is up to all of us to change, for the better, but good post for recognising we need to change as opposed to apathy and ignoring it.

[Azunai]

I won't go into the specifics because I'm not part of DMR's raiding division anymore, nor do I mean this towards anyone specific, but it's been something I had been discussing with others shortly before leaving.

As a guild, you need to figure out what you want from the (raiding) game. No matter how many guilds try, I remain convinced (based on both 1st and 3rd hand experience) that a casual guild does not mix with high tier content. At some point you *will* need ~40 (or ~20 if it's 10man exclusive) raiders who

A) (Want to) know their stuff, have fruitful discussions about class mechanics/encounters and how classmates handle things (this is no shame, this is only good, I've learned and adjusted my gameplay alot since joining Eluo)
B) Come to a raid, prepared, no whining and focused on teamplay
C) A structured way of dealing with encounters and raids (i.e. class channels, class leaders, a hierarchy for communication to flow along)
D) People need to accept and work with such a system or it won't work

This last point is important. A guild doesn't change from casual to hardcore by applying a different label, but by either changing (which I consider rare) or replacing the people within it. Depending on the matter of 'casualness' your guild will only make it so far. To push on, the natural response is to apply rules and measures similar to a hardcore guild, but if the people aren't hardcore (i.e. aren't willing to accept these measures and act on them/give up the casual aspect of the guild) then imo there's no use in trying or things will only heat up and get worse. Don't want to give up being casual? That's ok, it's everyone's own game. But again, casual + high tier raiding = problems. Just look at the past on Aszune, look at the point in each expansion's timeline where most guilds either stopped progressing or ended/reformed.  

I don't mean to overstep my bounds as an outsider (and by all means do say so if I am), but maybe as the guild in its wholeness it's about time to ask the question of which direction, (very binary) casual or hardcore, to take. I think it would be rather silly to stubbornly keep pushing on like nothing's wrong, when clearly there is (based on Amethyst's post, Mal's leaving earlier and from what I already felt a couple months ago). In the end, it's only a game, and the question is how far people can go before it stops being one. You have to figure out how far DMR can go.

My :2cents:

[valdeko]

Here's my 2 cents:

I think dMr evolved from a social raiding guild to a semi hardcore raiding guild around Ulda and the start of ToC. Its a natural process if you keep inviteing ppl in the guild and raid 5 days a week (2 being off days for 10mans).

Naturally ppl want to see the whole game no matter how social the guild may be. The leadership of the guild just went along with the flow and upgrade itself into a real raiding guild with leaders and needed loot system to award those who help the overall progress.

But ame some things that were bothering you about the current situation of dmr seems to be more stuck with ppl then the guild.

For instance: 1)Social member being taken instead of actual raiders. Tbh social members are only taken if actual raiders are lacking something or just arent present when needed. Raids need to be filled, cant cancel when few raiders cant join but socials are there to fill the places.
2) Absent of 10man raids. Hmm cant say they are absent when ive been running 10man runs for the past month. And befor ICC, think they just werent organized befor hand since noone was up to lead them and thought 25mans are good enough and tbh befor ICC, 10mans were succesfuly PuGable.
3) Getting help from other guilds to show us the "ropes" and the comparing us with other higher guilds. Getting help from other guilds is nothing wrong. If we ask help and when we need it why not accept it from those who want to help us. And tbh its in the human nature to be compatitve, whos first and whos last.
4) Saying hello and gn in guild chat, Ame thats all stuck with peoples own uprising. Cant force ppl to say hi and gn to everyone. Knowing your a mother so you should know that.

If you find any of this offensive, just ignore it. Just giveing my point of view on the topic.

[Tirkad]

Your words hit the nail there, and tbh i cannot blame you for your decision, that i fully understand.
However a couple of points have touched me personally:

• the fact that i don't say hello to someone is NOT becouse i want to ignore him/her or becouse i'm checking his guild ranking and then decide if he/she is worth of my greetings: i've never done this and you'll never see me do it. It's just that in that moment i'm doing something else that requires my focus or i'm not even there to answer the chat. For example, when i log in 30-40 mins before the raid, i usually go alt-tabbing checking mail, doing the last phone calls of the day, and all the kind of stuff to be free for the following 3 hours. In addition, during raids, i've created a new chat panel called "Raid" (i know, my creativity sucks) where i can see only raid warnings, bosses' emotes, yells and DBM warnings. This simply becouse otherwise my chat would be flooded with messages (in particular from the general chat, sometimes) and making it impossible for me to track anything at all.
• i deeply dislike people going for UNREQUESTED SUGGESTIONS. They should know better (aka KNOW YOUR PLACE). The only ones that can rightfully talk with people about their raid attendance/performance are the officers, all the others, if their help is not explicitly requested should simply shut up. This is for a reason: the officers are the only people reputed competent for this job, both in a knowlege-base of the class and for their way to relate to people, in other words, they've been chosed becouse they know what they're talking about and they know how to talk to people.
  
• About the raiding environment, i sadly agree with you. The raid environment has slowly degenerated in a competitive and sometimes really unfriendly part of this game, with the tension growing more and more after each wipe/attempt on progress night. You know what? I really miss the time of our 10 men ulduar progress group, we were 10 people prepared, really interested in progress but above all we preserved the friendly envirnment every guild should have. I recall the discussion on ts, we had fun talking of every thing and havign a laugh about it, we focus on each attempt (and blame dill's slackness everytime :narnar: ) and we had a nice friendly discussion after each wipe. I mean, in each of us is clear as always the weeks we spent on general vezax trying to get him down and the deep feeling of satisfaction we felt after killing him the first time. And noone even thought of blaming someone: we were all there to learn, to focus and to give our best, but above all: we were there to have fun with our friends. I don't know what happened, but i cannot hide i miss those runs, and the fun we had back then.
  
• Last but not least, i'd like to spend some words on the looting system. To me, a looting system is as good as another, as long as it's fair, for 2 simple reasons:
• Those are just pixels. A better gear doesn't make you a better person.
• The raid has the priority over the member. ALWAYS. I've always refused to roll on some items, in particular weapons and trinkets, if they were not an exact match for my class and if there were players in the raid that could benefit from them more. That's why i'm still hanging around with some low level items. That's becouse they could be a nice upgrade, but i can do my job even without them, i just need to put a little more focus. And that's becouse SKILL>>GEAR.
  

[TeaLeaf]

i've created a new chat panel called "Raid" (i know, my creativity sucks) where i can see only raid warnings, bosses' emotes, yells and DBM warnings. This simply becouse otherwise my chat would be flooded with messages (in particular from the general chat, sometimes) and making it impossible for me to track anything at all.

I have precisely the same for those encounters where I really do need full focus and a clear/clean UI

[Sithvid]

• i deeply dislike people going for UNREQUESTED SUGGESTIONS. They should know better (aka KNOW YOUR PLACE). The only ones that can rightfully talk with people about their raid attendance/performance are the officers, all the others, if their help is not explicitly requested should simply shut up.
   You know what? I really miss the time of our 10 men ulduar progress group, we were 10 people prepared, really interested in progress but above all we preserved the friendly envirnment every guild should have. I recall the discussion on ts, we had fun talking of every thing and havign a laugh about it, we focus on each attempt (and blame dill's slackness everytime :narnar: ) and we had a nice friendly discussion after each wipe. I mean, in each of us is clear as always the weeks we spent on general vezax trying to get him down and the deep feeling of satisfaction we felt after killing him the first time. And noone even thought of blaming someone: we were all there to learn, to focus and to give our best, but above all: we were there to have fun with our friends. I don't know what happened, but i cannot hide i miss those runs, and the fun we had back then.
  
  Could you clarify as these statements appear to contradict each other.
  
  I prefer the 2nd option all the way through, if an officer asks for silence or says lets do it this way.... then in my opinion 99% of the time we do just that.
  Stiffling innovation input or ideas, well 20 years working for the government has taught me it does little to motivate.. I think we all have an opinion and as long as it constructive surely it should be heard, how we do it is another thing.

[Tirkad]

Could you clarify as these statements appear to contradict each other.

Sure.
What i meant is that, as stated in a previous discussion, the officers are the only one who should to players about their performance during raids. Let me clarify this with an example. As soon as i joined this guild, evo had just been promoted to officer, and he gave me some nice tips on how to play better my class, and we used to discuss about it, sharing our experiences of multiple situations and supporting each other. This is a nice way to make people improve.
On the other side, when you have someone whispering you: "what the hell are you doing? Do you know how to play your class? You should use this and that and do this and that!", it's something really irritating, to use an euphemism.
When we used to run that pioneers group, after each wipe, we consulted each other, let me explain with an example of a dialogue really close to those we had:
(Speaking about General Vezax)
Player A: "I thought i saw a video where we should kite the boss during those big hits"
Player B: "Yes, that's a way to do it, however this will mess up a lot with the player positionings, not to mention the organization of the saronite pools."
Player C: "Is there something we can do to mitigate those hits? Or are the tanks not gered enough yet to endure such dmg?"
Player A: "I guess we have something. For example we can have the tank using his cooldown in these moments".
Player C: "That's the problem, the ability has a lower cooldown than the tank's ones"
Player A: "Ok, let's put on the table everything we have and try to organize, maybe we can rotate the use of cooldowns".

That's how we did it, we used garrit's divine protection, jim's pain suppression and mine hand of sacrifice in the right rotation, mitigating the damage on the tank during those hard time laps.

However, i'm aware that such environment is easier (if not only) achievable during 10 men runs, since there will still be avoided too many voices on ts at the same time. That's why the officers asked to keep communications clean, and to use our class leader/role officers as reference.
I hope i've been a bit clearer.

[DannagE]

I'm still no clearer if DMR are going to be changing direction?

I for one would like to be pushing everything we have to progressing ourselves as I would like to get to down the Lich King eventually. BUT I would also like to be able to have a laugh in raids too! Maybe having 2 days a week for ICC and a day for TOC, ONY, VoA or even Ulduar where the 'social' raiders can come and enjoy themselves.

Could have a poll on the forums asking people what they want from raiding?

[Sithvid]

Thanks Tirky much clearer and positive