Raid 24.06.10 ICC 25

[DFE]

http://www.worldoflogs.com

I knew it :crying:
Last week Noréia made me bleed for 125 DKP on [ITEM=52026]token[/ITEM]  (actually according to our DKP site it was 126) when it finally dropped after 6 weeks and yesterday, when I wasnt there, two of these dropped and he won it for 20 DKP.  :doh:QQQQQQQQQQQQ gimme my DKP back!

Also I am curious what made Legolei spent 90 DKP on the same item yesterday when Noréia had it for 20....  This is a weaknesses of DKP compared to EP/GP but I will have to take it as a fact (though tokens should have fixed price imho).

Whatever.

[JonnyAppleSeed]

they were both bidding on the first one .... doh

[Padding]

Its always been like that, might be a flaw but its a lot better than the alternatives. Your just lucky you actually won one, i still only have one l264 set item, and thats only because i won it in voa :/

[Tirkad]

Before the dkp system we used the loot council/need-greed one. I guess we switched to dkp to give an advantage to the more active raiders. Anyway, the dkp system isn't flawed, but of course the raid setup at the moment a particular item drops is really important. You can try to set up strategies with it, for example to raise the bids on a certain item if you know the one you're bidding against is going to roll on an item you're going to need after it, but it may actually fire back sometimes. All in all, i guess the dkp system is the less luck based, and require just more attention to the dkp list and the raid setup.
However, there's a variant of the dkp system i've experimented: fixed price for items (e.g.: weapons 75 dkp, tokens 50 dkp, off-set gear 40 dkp, class-specific slot gear 25 dkp), and the person with the highest dkp pool gets the prio on the item (roll for ties). However this has a flaw: if noone in the raid who's eligible for that loot can afford the price, the item will be desenchanted, losing a chance to upgrade a player and more generally the raid.
All in all, i think the system we're using is quite good. It's up to you to chose how much you want to spend for a certain loot. If you bought your token for 125 dkp, it means you thought that it was of the utmost importance for you to upgrade that piece. Of course, people may disagree with you (i spent a lot for a token too, but only becouse i was capped for way too long and i didn't need anything else in particular anymore).
On the other hand, i think that the dkp system we're using is mostly fair with an even setup (max 3-4 players of the same class), thus it may be a bit flawed sometimes in our current situation.

TL,DR: I think the system we're using is a good system to reward attendance, even if sometimes it may seem flawed.

[DFE]

Dont get me wrong, I didnt want to say the system we use is bad in general. I just pointed at one weakness. One item drops twice at the same moment and two players get it for different price.

I still dont understand the prices paid. Out of 5 eligible players, there two at 100 DKP, one at 42, one at 2 and one at -6. Market price for both Lego and Noréia would be high enough (42+25+1 = 68) to beat Bell in case Bell was interested in tokens. Actually my first bid would be high enough to beat the fourth 2+25+1 = 28. If the 3rd highest would be interested, he would bid over this. Once the 3rd guy passes, I would not bid a single DKP more and either me or the other guy with 100 DKP would get it for the price beating the 3rd guy.
Bidding for the second token would be exactly the same and equilibrium price would be again 42+25+1 = 68 DKP (or 28 in case Bell was not interested).  Off course the price could be lower if the 3rd (or 4th) guy decides not to draw blood from the 2nd guy but it is not optimal for him because next time he could get beaten by the 2nd guy again...

I didnt really mean it to have my DKP back, not even the QQs were meant to be real because I understand that I paid market price for the tokens last week - even though market price was almost 60 DKP higher last week. But given the demand for tokens and assuming rational behavior of all competitors, both prices from yesterday are way off.

/end economic theories

[Tirkad]

You can see it like that, or do like me: I value this item x dkps. If the bids get higher that that, i'll not bid for it, while if the bids are lower, i'll be happy to pay that amount for that item, becouse to me it's what it's worth (and screw all the brain consuming plans to get it at the lowest price and all probability math). :narnar:

[DFE]

haha, yes, that is second possible approach. But it fails to explain the prices paid, anyway. If Noréia values the item for only 20DKP (or actually a bit more but he obviously didnt have to pay more) than there was no need to drive Lego to pay more than this valued price. Of course, anything Lego paid above 68 is only his fault, because even if you value something at some prize, you dont have to pay THAT price if you can get it cheaper. And he could get it cheaper .
Oh, btw, yesterdayÃ,´s match was thrilling

[Whitey]

The thing with the tokens is that you pay what you think they are worth to you.  Lego could have ended up with a cheap token if one of the guys had decided to not bid on the first token and then start bidding on the second (this happened to me in ToC where I decided to stop bidding on a trophy as there were only two of us bidding and I thought I'd get the next one and then someone else came in on the next Trophy and ended up paying even more!).  As it was no one else came in yesterday but I for one would have been happy to spend the 90 DKP and know that I had the token in my bag ,than risk no one else bidding on the next one.

[TeaLeaf]

@DFE: the higher earlier bids are in the knowledge that you don't know if another will drop or that you will win it if it has.  One in the hand is worth more......

@Tirkad: the aspect of fixed price items are that people are stupid so refuse to pay for upgrades unless they are MAJOR upgrades.  Bidding at least reflects the price people are willing to pay for an item rather selecting a fixed DKP value per item.  And of course that ignores the fact that many BIS items are in fact not top level, so not all BIS are i277, some are i264 and wait for it, even i258.  So a fixed price is actually pretty daft in those circumstances - let people decide the value, then you know it's right.

Anyway, as this is a raid thread where's the logs?  Stop taking it OT DFE!

[Tirkad]

Anyway, as this is a raid thread where's the logs?

QFT! Gief logs!

[Whitey]

Anyway, as this is a raid thread where's the logs?  Stop taking it OT DFE!

Added to DFE's 1st post to make it easy to find