New 25 man loot system...

[Midd]

Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

 This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

 We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guildsâ€"if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadelâ€"would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

 To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

 It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.

Not sure about this to be honest.  Having 5 different tiers of the same item is just overkill, and all completionists will want a full Thunderforged set.  Whereas normally you could start progressing by, for example, skipping MSV now, you'd feel obliged to continually run all content so that some people get their Thunderforged items.  My other concern really, is that if 90% of the raiding playerbase raid 10 mans, why would you incentivise the other 10%... surely you should just make it in the interest of the remaining 10% to go with the majority.

What does everyone else think?

[smilodon]

I'm no expert on the subject but I can see Blizzards problems in that content can quickly become dull if there's no challenge or reason to go back to it. Having timed runs and now higher level gear drops is a solution and I can't really think of another way to make players want to revisit dungeons they have cleared and got the normal drop from. In the same way I can see Blizzards issue with 10 v 25 man raids which they discuss in the notes. Again I'm not sure more frequent drops is a compelling enough reason to run 25 man raids but what's the alternative? I agree that by fixing one issue they might be creating another though. Not being a raider I'm unsure about how well they've addressed the problem but at least they're looking into it.

[Riggy]

I don't think that the 10% of 25 man teams should be forced to become 10 man groups.  Blizzard like to keep both sets of content and there are players that prefer that however, I am pleased that they have not offered any kind of reward/incentive to 25 man teams that is not also available to 10 man groups.  If I understand correctly then the Thunderforged gear they are referring to is in a single raid instance in the next patch, similar to ICC, so progression there will involve revisiting the same bosses over and over through normal and then again on HC and then farmed until everyone has the top tier gear?

[Slush]

This is Blizzard's last and final attempt to keep 25-man raids. 25 man dates back several years and people in these groups are low-demanding and high-profiled players on servers/forums etc. Add a drop of nostalgia to this and you can see many big voices on several fansites go qq if they go for one raid size (15 man or whatever).

Soo.. last shot to see if 25 will survive.

On another note... 476, 483, 489, 496 and 502. Add elite gear 503 and item upgrades... Is there any gearlevel that doesnt exist today (as of 5.1?) Its all a big mess and 50% of my bags are gear. pve ele, pvpresto, pve resto. Add some "i must try this piece out"-trinkets and LFR tier pieces and you are there. Big messy mess.

6 itemlevels. Wont be worth going for tbh. Dont think many RL's will do that. Progression is everything in 25 man. Btw; Item upgrades wont be around in 5.2, so I think the new path will be less messy.

[Padding]

Im gonna sound like a really old man and demand 40 man raids back! Now THAT was something

[Switchback]

Im gonna sound like a really old man and demand 40 man raids back! Now THAT was something

5 minute buffs ftw


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[TeaLeaf]

I think they are basically screwed.   When they introduced 2 new & different raid sizes (10 & 25) to replace 40 man they shot themselves in the foot.   It introduced major imbalances and ruined instance design as they now had to balance against 10 man buff levels and could not assume that all the buffs were there all of the time as they had done previously in 40 man raiding.   This announcement is just another in the chain of corrections trying to patch over a chasm.

The ilevel spread is a debacle imo.   It extends progression times which they will think is brilliant - they get a couple more months per raid tier by introducing more tier levels - more months = more subs for the same amount of work = bigger profit.

In the 10 v 25 debate, I hate the fact that there is any benefit to raiding one size or the other.   In many cases 10 man is already heavily disadvantaged - just look at how long it took a 10 man to complete the legendary in Firelands (3 times longer than a 25 man raid), so adding an advantage to 25 man is imo daft.    I readily accept that 25 man raids are harder to organise & run, but that's a choice you make, whether to get the buzz of a bigger social group or a smaller one.

Blizzard killed this debate when they moved to dual-size raiding and got rid of 40 man raiding.  If they had gone to just 25 man or just 10 man then these questions would not arise.

[Ammon]

Didn't the problems begin when they added zul'gurub back in 1.7, back then it was 40 vs 20, but frequently only part of the raid group could do it.
then they just compounded it with the rest.
Leaving it at just one raid size would certainly have made sense though.

They didn't learn from everquest making the same error, with 72, 54 and 36 man raids each with their own tanking & dps requirements caused a ton of consternation and yes i am ignoring the plane of earth debacle & gates of discord fiasco

Edit: I remember the ten man disadvantage painfully well, as it took an age for me to complete fangs of the father when 25's were getting two or three clusters per my one.