SC split out

[albert]

Suggestion Similo....if you're not buying into a game don't at least try and put everyone else off! Yes it's far from perfect but nobody likes that rammed down their throats [emoji5]

[smilodon]

I assume you meant you'd rather I didn't post thoughts and ideas about Star Citizen, if they are going to be less than glowing? If so...

I went back into the game to have another look. Like Oldie and Penfold I wasn't blown away. I made a perfectly legitimate comment on the forum expressing an opinion, which I am as entitled to do, as anyone one else. Others made comments as disparaging as mine possibly more so, but don't seem to be taken to task by you. If you don't agree with my thoughts about Star Citizen then fine and you can say as such. But what you can't do is tell me or anyone else not to make a comment at all. Just because you don't agree with my view that Star Citizen is an unplayable mess, doesn't mean I can't say as such.

For everyone else

I'd encourage any user of these forums to feel free to express themselves and state their opinions openly. As forum Admin I'll make sure no one is bullied, reprimanded or taken to task for stating a genuinely held opinion. If you try Star Citizen or any other game and either do or do not like it then please come and let us know. Thanks.

[albert]

Just trying to stay positive. We have a theme in dMw that the guy who got his refund likes to make noise about how crappy a game is. I personally have no regrets over pledging but I bet a few others are thinking 'what have I done' Smilo knows his stuff and he cashed in...should I do the same? As a community we have heavily supported SC. Let's not lead a panic unnecessarily.

Sent from my LG-H990 using Tapatalk

[smilodon]

God no don't cash in if you're invested in it. I didn't really post much about the refund so for clarity....

Getting a refund is a long hard slog and to be honest in hindsight it's probably not worth it. There's a quite a lot of investment you'll never get back such as subscriptions, specials etc. and all perks you get from being a supporter are lost forever. Nor can you get money you spent on in game currency back. All you can get is the initial pledge plus stand alone ships at their original cost. If at a later date you do buy back in, then you'll have to do it at the new prices which requires a purchase of both Squadron 42 and Star Citizen MMO and higher prices for the ships (plus no insurance).

It's also a slog as Cloud Imperium won't just pony up when you first ask. You need to explain why you want the refund, in some detail, and there is no certainty you'll get it at all. I did it as I'd spent a good few hundred quid, needed the cash for getting married and took a punt on getting a refund for a game I wasn't playing and wasn't planning on playing for a few years at least (assuming the MMO goes live in 2020).

Also full disclosure I have access to a login owned by my nephew and in all likelihood he'll never play star citizen as he's a mad PS player and currently doesn't own a PC.

IMHO... Star Citizen 3.3.5 IMHO isn't much to look at after four or five years of work. I'm not hopeful we'll see it in the next year or two and it's a little annoying that Cloud Imperium still seem happy to build more and more ships and then charge money for us to buy them,  rather than stopping that cash cow and dedicating themselves to getting the game finished. It seems a bit greedy and unethical. We'll see a pipeline for Squadron 42 soon and I'm praying that at least the single player game will come this year. Please.

[Chaosphere]

IMHO... Star Citizen 3.3.5 IMHO isn't much to look at after four or five years of work. I'm not hopeful we'll see it in the next year or two and it's a little annoying that Cloud Imperium still seem happy to build more and more ships and then charge money for us to buy them,  rather than stopping that cash cow and dedicating themselves to getting the game finished. It seems a bit greedy and unethical. We'll see a pipeline for Squadron 42 soon and I'm praying that at least the single player game will come this year. Please.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on it for now, and why I remain largely uninterested.

That said, I still own a basic copy, and am grateful to those of you trying the game regularly and posting your thoughts up here. As soon as it looks like the game is in a more playable state, I'll jump right in. I just don't expect that to be anytime soon, which is fine as I have plenty of other great games to enjoy until then. Personally I think many are in a similar boat, taking a 'wait and see' approach.

[Penfold]

Sorry but you overreacted to Smilo Albert. No problem with your trying to defend a game you enjoy but you had no right to shoot down his post or comments. Little did you know that he's been playing this game recently. Besides which, his reply to me was most useful.

These forums are littered with people making negative comments about games. In fact I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any game where people haven't bitched about it.

Personally I think 'Scam Cititizen' is verging on being one of the  greatest games cons ever created and I would heavily tell no one to buy  it. Five years and seeing what they've produced is criminal. My view.

Jees, they emply over 300 people - what the hell are they doing with them?

I logged on Sunday night full of hope end expectation. Pretty much guarantee that more than half the people in our squad were disappointed by the experience. Sulks has pointed out several major flaws.

I'm probably one you're siniping at about not having the gfx card to appreciate the beauty of it. I'd rather than the content working in the first instance. Sorry, make that 'some' content. It's a glitch fest.

If.... and it's a big if..... they get it to a decent multiplayer experience then that would be great. Not holding my breath.

[Jamoe]

It's fair to say there are multiple paths this game could take. Whether it's a con, a boring mess, or the dream many bought into. It easy to find reasons for all options/opinions. So I'm still on a fence, and I'll just come back in 3 months to check progress.

[albert]

Yes the advice to you Pen was helpful for sure.

I'm just keen for SC not to be another dMw flop. Part of that is when leadership in the community really give a game like this backing/ blessing and make it the biggest game ever in dMw history in terms of investment we trust that decision. I'd like for us still to have 60 odd players by the time it's ready for prime.

Sent from my LG-H990 using Tapatalk

[Penfold]

Albert's response was disproportionate to Smilo's post just as yours is to mine.

Every member is entitled to their opinion and their right to post it. Just if their views do not align with yours does not give you the right to launch into a personal diatribe.

You've turned what was a discussion about a game into something personal and name-calling. Well done.

in a space of a post you've told members they're uninformed and whinging.

It's a scam
As for calling the development a “scam” or a “con” â€" not only do I find that offensive, it also shows that that person has no concept of how crowd-funded development works, nor do they understand the definition of “scam” or “con”.
And actively dissuading people from buying the game? Shame on you!

is waaaaaaay more insulting* than anything Smilo, I or OB posted. It's incredibly arrogant and patronising. You know nothing about me so don't presume to lecture me as I wouldn't you.

I feel that Star Citizen has morphed into something that was not originally conceived and a victim of its own success. Not saying they were mendacious from the outset but it's funny how they keep having to change their T&C's to accommodate the push backs and changing ethos of the game. It's not what a lot of people signed-up for (hmm all sounds a bit brexit-ish).

If you want a discussion about the game then foster it but not at the personal expense of those people whose opinions differ to yours. Personally I love Ark and have put up with years and years of people complaining how bad and buggy it is. That's their right (and it was true) but we suck it up.

Smilo can say what he likes about the game. Just because he's given up on it does not mean he's barred from talking about it. We don't work like that. Tough.

I fully understand you're totally committed to Star Citizen, and have invested a lot of time and money into it. Good for you. I sincerely hope it pans out to be the best thing ever and brings out our community en masse to play it. Feel free to post up your thoughts as others will do theirs but keep the personal comments out of it.

[smilodon]

Posted before I read Penfolds post. Some duplication, sorry.

An interesting and informative post but my main point about expressing your opinion still stands and I'll make it simple.

• This is a free forum that embraces free speech and free expression of opinion. Anyone who posts a thought or opinion should be fully prepared to be disagreed with and to have their views challenged.
• However no one is going to be prevented from actually making that opinion known. No one should feel they have no right to express a view because someone else doesn't agree with it.
• If you have recently played Star Citizen then like myself, Oldie, Albert, Penfold, Obsydian and others, you are free to posts your thoughts here. Your right to express your views will be protected passionately. As will others rights to disagree with you and to say as such.
• If you choose to stick with it or go through the painful process of trying to get some kind of refund (I Don't recommend you bother) that's your call and again you're free to post a comment either way.

On a personal note -  that I'm the dMw Forum Admin has zero effect on my ability to post my thoughts. I am under absolutely no obligation to keep my mouth shut when I have a critical comment to make about a game. I would recommend people do not go out and buy a copy of Star Citizen at the moment. Why? It's not a game that can be played in any meaningful way, It is, as mentioned, a pre alpha. At some point in the future there may well be sufficient content to make for a meaningful gaming experience. That point in time is subjective and depends on the player in question. There's no definitive point when it suddenly becomes a playable game. That's up to you to decide. If you already own the game great, you can just sit tight and test the water as and when you want. All you're giving up is some hard drive space.

 Cloud Imperium have raised over $200,000,000 to date, so I really don't think they need your help with development costs. If you want to buy into the game right now it's about £85.00 for the standalone single player Squadron 42 game and access to the Star Citizen MMO that also includes a basic starter ship (you can by one game without the other for about £42). I have no idea what the cost will be when the game launches but I can't imagine Cloud Imperium could ask much more than the current price. So IMHO I'd keep hold of you cash and wait and see.

There's nothing wrong with where Star Citizen is right now. It's well funded and moving along nicely, I have no idea how long  AAA game takes to develop but at least it's going to be an "It's done when it's done" game and not an EA, Activision rushed to market mess, which is a very good thing. It's clear that Chris Roberts initially planned to launch a much smaller scale game for about $5,000,000 and grow it from there. He's publicly stated that he never dreamed he would have so much money. This has lead to them having to relook at a great deal of their early work and to redo quite a lot of it. Things like procedural planets didn't even exist when Start Citizen was announced. I'm not 100% comfortable with the continued monetisation of the game. It would be nice if they locked it down and just got on with getting the game out but they're the Devs so maybe they know best.... maybe they need to keep their ship designers busy, so they make more and more ships. You can't really ever have too many ships

Personally I hope Squadron 42 launches early next year and a playable Star Citizen later next year. Once Squadron 42 is out the reviews will come in and you can all make your choices as to whether to buy it. As soon as there is a large enough world to explore and multiplayer works properly with solid things for groups to do, then Star Citizen will be to go IMHO. When dMw'ers and gamers in general start playing regularly together and report a decent experience then that's the time to jump in and spend your cash.

And there you go.

[Obsydian]

Albert's response was disproportionate to Smilo's post just as yours is to mine.

Every member is entitled to their opinion and their right to post it. Just if their views do not align with yours does not give you the right to launch into a personal diatribe.

You've turned what was a discussion about a game into something personal and name-calling. Well done.

in a space of a post you've told members they're uninformed and whinging.



is waaaaaaay more insulating than anything Smilo, I or OB posted. It's incredibly arrogant and patronising. You know nothing about me so don't presume to lecture me as I wouldn't you.

I feel that Star Citizen has morphed into something that was not originally conceived and a victim of its own success. Not saying they were mendacious from the outset but it's funny how they keep having to change their T&C's to accommodate the push backs and changing ethos of the game. It's not what a lot of people signed-up for (hmm all sounds a bit brexit-ish).

If you want a discussion about the game then foster it but not at the personal expense of those people whose opinions differ to yours. Personally I love Ark and have put up with years and years of people complaining how bad and buggy it is. That's their right (and it was true) but we suck it up.

Smilo can say what he likes about the game. Just because he's given up on it does not mean he's barred from talking about it. We don't work like that. Tough.

I fully understand you're totally committed to Star Citizen, and have invested a lot of time and money into it. Good for you. I sincerely hope it pans out to be the best thing ever and brings out our community en masse to play it. Feel free to post up your thoughts as others will do theirs but keep the personal comments out of it.

I have no problem with people having different opinions to mine, and I am more than happy to actively engage in a debate and discussion about anything to do with Star Citizen.

What I do have a problem with is people simply slagging off the game in posts which basically come across as "this game is shite, don't buy it" without any real reference as to why...I have a problem with it not being put as a question that can be debated but as a statement of fact, which shuts down any potential conversation.  It wasn't the discussion that you claim it to be.  That's the point I was trying to make.

And I didn't call anyone any names.  I said that posting negative comments as I've just described is nothing short of whinging, and if people make statements that are inaccurate due to them not being in full possession of the facts, then what would you call it?  Sorry, but I stand by my statement.

As for calling the development a scam, I've seen it all over: on forums, YouTube video comments, Facebook, etc., I'm fed up with it, I don't understand why some people keep insisting it's a scam, and yet no one calling it that (that I've asked) has EVER backed up their claim as to why they consider it a scam.  I just didn't expect to encounter it here, and I stand by what I said -  no, I don't know you, but the only thing I have to judge you by are your words here, and if you really do believe the development is a scam then I feel my comments were justified.  Prove me wrong by explaining to me in what way the development could possibly be a scam - I would gladly and sincerely apologise if that were the case.

[Obsydian]

Posted before I read Penfolds post. Some duplication, sorry.

An interesting and informative post but my main point about expressing your opinion still stands and I'll make it simple.

• This is a free forum that embraces free speech and free expression of opinion. Anyone who posts a thought or opinion should be fully prepared to be disagreed with and to have their views challenged.
• However no one is going to be prevented from actually making that opinion known. No one should feel they have no right to express a view because someone else doesn't agree with it.
• If you have recently played Star Citizen then like myself, Oldie, Albert, Penfold, Obsydian and others, you are free to posts your thoughts here. Your right to express your views will be protected passionately. As will others rights to disagree with you and to say as such.
• If you choose to stick with it or go through the painful process of trying to get some kind of refund (I Don't recommend you bother) that's your call and again you're free to post a comment either way.

On a personal note -  that I'm the dMw Forum Admin has zero effect on my ability to post my thoughts. I am under absolutely no obligation to keep my mouth shut when I have a critical comment to make about a game. I would recommend people do not go out and buy a copy of Star Citizen at the moment. Why? It's not a game that can be played in any meaningful way, It is, as mentioned, a pre alpha. At some point in the future there may well be sufficient content to make for a meaningful gaming experience. That point in time is subjective and depends on the player in question. There's no definitive point when it suddenly becomes a playable game. That's up to you to decide. If you already own the game great, you can just sit tight and test the water as and when you want. All you're giving up is some hard drive space.

 Cloud Imperium have raised over $200,000,000 to date, so I really don't think they need your help with development costs. If you want to buy into the game right now it's about £85.00 for the standalone single player Squadron 42 game and access to the Star Citizen MMO that also includes a basic starter ship (you can by one game without the other for about £42). I have no idea what the cost will be when the game launches but I can't imagine Cloud Imperium could ask much more than the current price. So IMHO I'd keep hold of you cash and wait and see.

There's nothing wrong with where Star Citizen is right now. It's well funded and moving along nicely, I have no idea how long  AAA game takes to develop but at least it's going to be an "It's done when it's done" game and not an EA, Activision rushed to market mess, which is a very good thing. It's clear that Chris Roberts initially planned to launch a much smaller scale game for about $5,000,000 and grow it from there. He's publicly stated that he never dreamed he would have so much money. This has lead to them having to relook at a great deal of their early work and to redo quite a lot of it. Things like procedural planets didn't even exist when Start Citizen was announced. I'm not 100% comfortable with the continued monetisation of the game. It would be nice if they locked it down and just got on with getting the game out but they're the Devs so maybe they know best.... maybe they need to keep their ship designers busy, so they make more and more ships. You can't really ever have too many ships

Personally I hope Squadron 42 launches early next year and a playable Star Citizen later next year. Once Squadron 42 is out the reviews will come in and you can all make your choices as to whether to buy it. As soon as there is a large enough world to explore and multiplayer works properly with solid things for groups to do, then Star Citizen will be to go IMHO. When dMw'ers and gamers in general start playing regularly together and report a decent experience then that's the time to jump in and spend your cash.

And there you go.

Thank you smilo, point taken on the opinion piece.

By way of explanation, I guess I was coming from my own personal viewpoint of how I would act on the forums - I would never deign to comment negatively (or otherwise) on a game that I neither own nor play.  I am also conscious to provide a reason for any negative comments and possible solutions, thus hopefully turning a negative into a potential positive, and I guess I need to be a little more forgiving when others don't do the same.

In any event, it would appear that I overstepped the mark, and for that I apologise (and I now know where the mark is!

Concerning your point about CIG not needed further funding, while I appreciate that that could be a whole topic in itself, my belief is that they do need continued funding in order to complete the game, so I would encourage people to pledge as early as they can for a basic game package (and no more!) in order to help with that (even if they don't actually play until live).  I don't have any hard and fast figures, but with over 500 employees, 4 offices (5, I guess, if you count Derby) and continued network and server charges, I wouldn't be surprised if their burn rate was in the region of $4m-$5m per month.  By previous estimates I've done in the past, most of the backer money was used up a while ago, and they are existing off the monthly pledges.  That said, they did sell a percentage of the company recently to an undisclosed investor for $110m, so that's a good 2 year's worth of costs covered right there, so you could be right.

My guestimate is that we'll go to beta in 2020, so we should have a more complete experience by then.  Live?  Who knows, but I'd say 2022.

[Penfold]

And I didn't call anyone any names.  I said that posting negative comments as I've just described is nothing short of whinging, and if people make statements that are inaccurate due to them not being in full possession of the facts, then what would you call it?  Sorry, but I stand by my statement.

Try re-reading what you posted and what I replied and then tell me your comments weren't personal. Your post was arrogant as it was patronising (certainly the bit I highlighted was).

I'm not going to get into a flame war with you. If you fail to see it/disagree then there's little point.

If someone wants to post a simple this game is crap then so be it. It's not your job to tell them they can't post that or need to explain themselves. They don't. If I want to call it a scam. I can. It's my choice and my right. I don't have to justify myself to you or to anyone else. It's a subjective viewpoint which, rightly or wrongly, I have formulated in my own mind and a view which has just as much right to be aired as yours.

Even your latest post stating.............. "What I do have a problem with is people......"

Again, it just comes across as high-handed, patronising and arrogant. I'm surprised you can't see it.

You could so easily have made your interesting post without the insults. A simple.

Sorry you feel that this game is crap or that it's a scam. I think you're wrong and this is why I disagree............  

would have been so much more valid and engaging and I would have read the merit in your posts. However you went with the insulting....... you don't know what a scam is, you're stupid and have no idea what crowdfunding is. shame on you etc.

You've been reminded about our forum guidelines and all I ask is that you take a moment to digest. Like it or not you have to respect people's right to speak their minds. I don't care if it's from a position of ignorance, it is their right. You also have the right to disagree of course but without trying to belittle the people making those comments. Come on, you're erudite and intelligent enough to make a point without the petty insults.

[Obsydian]

Try re-reading what you posted and what I replied and then tell me your comments weren't personal. Your post was arrogant as it was patronising (certainly the bit I highlighted was).

I'm not going to get into a flame war with you. If you fail to see it/disagree then there's little point.

If someone wants to post a simple this game is crap then so be it. It's not your job to tell them they can't post that or need to explain themselves. They don't. If I want to call it a scam. I can. It's my choice and my right. I don't have to justify myself to you or to anyone else. It's a subjective viewpoint which, rightly or wrongly, I have formulated in my own mind and a view which has just as much right to be aired as yours.

Even your latest post stating.............. "What I do have a problem with is people......"

Again, it just comes across as high-handed, patronising and arrogant. I'm surprised you can't see it.

You could so easily have made your interesting post without the insults. A simple.

Sorry you feel that this game is crap or that it's a scam. I think you're wrong and this is why I disagree............  

would have been so much more valid and engaging and I would have read the merit in your posts. However you went with the insulting....... you don't know what a scam is, you're stupid and have no idea what crowdfunding is. shame on you etc.

You've been reminded about our forum guidelines and all I ask is that you take a moment to digest. Like it or not you have to respect people's right to speak their minds. I don't care if it's from a position of ignorance, it is their right. You also have the right to disagree of course but without trying to belittle the people making those comments. Come on, you're erudite and intelligent enough to make a point without the petty insults.

You are, of course, right, Penfold - I am arrogant, and I make no apologies for that.  I also hold myself to high standards, and find it frustrating when others don't appear to do the same.  That's my problem, of course, and I guess I have some adjustment to do on that score.

You're right: with hindsight I could (should) have started off my post differently.  I don't know why, but smilo's post irritated me, and then your post with the 'Scam Citizen' comment somehow triggered me, and I simply went off on one without considering how best to phrase my response.  I guess I'd simply "had enough"...I don't know.

I know you say you don't have to justify your comments to me - and I'm happy to accept that - but I'm still curious as to why you consider the project to be a scam.  As I said, I've asked many others the same, and they've never given me a reason.  Of course, you're free to not give an answer, but I thought I'd ask, if only to see if there's something I've missed, and I've inadvertently devoted my life savings to a con

[Penfold]

I am arrogant, and I make no apologies for that.  I also hold myself to high standards, and find it frustrating when others don't appear to do the same.

:frusty:

And therein lies the problem.