RG1 and Progress...

[Bob]

think back to december/january last year when we were SO damned close to taking ragnaros down, almost everyone that raided farmed for fire prot pots, mongoose pots, mroe FR gear, you name it we put effort into it, and damn was it rewarding when we got him down....

how times have changed.

What has changed, is that we now farm MC for money and gear, instead of farming Un'Goro for mats for fire pots or whatever/wherever.  Doing the farming wasn't the most fun part back than, but it was something we had to do.  It's not the fun part now either, but it's still something we have to do.
And that we farm MC together as a raid, instead of everybody some random place all by themselves, doesn't make it less rewarding when we take down a new boss...

I'm going to bed now - waaaay too late already :unsure:

[Voretex]

Bob we dont need to do MC for money.

AQ / ZG are much much much MUCH bigger money makers than MC/Ony

MC is a waste of time,  "YES TIER TWO LEGGINGS GET IN!!!!"

If the only reason why we still do MC is for tier 2 leggings, and Money.

You then have to ask yourself, what does RG1 need money for, at present fook all.  What has been hinted in the past is that the money is needed for Fire protection pots, RG2 are more than capable (as RG1 were) to fend for themselves in the money area, so they shouldnt need the money input for the pots from RG1. We will however need money for alot of nature resist potiosn in the future (which the guild bank, can never ever ever feasibly pay for the whole raids, as itll literally cost 1000 g per raid night). Flask of titans, The BoE blues from Nef, can pay for them.

And for the point of tier 2 leggings, There ARE better leggings in BWL, than every tier 2 set, period. 8/8 set bonus, to be fair is gonna fook all.

MC is boring as hell, not worth the time, (might be nice to do every 3/4 weeks) and hindering the potential to progess forwards in new instances.

In a even smaller summary :

Money can be gotten from ZG / AQ, Selling the tier 1 epics.

Tier 2 leggings aren't worth the 100+ hours of man power to just receive 2, when theyre are potentially better leggings in BWL.

I'd rather work towards something, with full focus in mind, ill admit i cant be arsed to focus in MC, neither can alot of people, the amount of chit chat on TS can prove that aswell !!

In defense to menetit, he was closing the poker game as soon as nefarion had gone back to this throne.  AFTER I WHOOPED ALL YOUR ASSES!!! !!1111

Believe it or not the level of focus has gone down hill since TL has gone on holiday , as proved by sundays BWL raid, the abysmal try on Chrommy kinda proves that xD.

*EDIT, holy hell bob, thats more than i wrote for my GCSE english CW*

[Menedil]

Im not quite sure why you brought up poker bob, cos its 100% irrelevant to anythign this thread was intended to discuss. However  i'd like to put forward a rebuttle.

Quote:
                                                 Originally Posted by Menedil
                 If its MC I'm more than likely to be afk/not putting effort in.
                                 
Who are you to talk about focus in MC Menedil?

Read what i said. I said im more than likely to NOT be focused in MC. My point was that I'm probably one of the most dedicated raiders that isnt an officer if you go by attendance, and there are lots like me that just dont give a rats ass about MC.

Regarding poker and nefarion... do you honestly expect people to sit there doing nothing for 15 minutes while we wait for nefarion to respawn. Perhaps going afk and getting occupied by something where the raid leaders cant reach us if we're needed is a better idea (i seem to recall someone shouting at jariuna for being afk 30s too long while cleaning the freaking dishes - thast a reaction whcih is best left at home in the future please). It's harmless fun. The poker game goes up pretty much when the last person is down, and as soon as nefarion respawns the poker game is shut down and EVERY ONE that was playing (including usually a couple of officers i might add) gets their game face on and we put in 100% and then some. Incase you havent noticed, we ONLY play poker during nef respawns. No other time during raids. If you really do feel its detrimental to the raid please say why.

I'm more than slightly annoyed at what youve said. Put yourself in my situation, I lead a raid pretty much every night we're not in BWL/MC/AQ40, I have 90+% attendance for the last few months... and then imagine some ignoramus giving you undue harsh critiscism for relieving tension a bit...

JT said something in his post that he used to feel that MC was booring, that was till he gave himself the goal to deal out as much damage for the raid as possible. That's the spirit, and if everybody did that, we could really speed things up.

a lot of us dps classes have been doing that for... lets see... a year now. yep. still boring.

I will agree that we dont HAVE to skip MC to get more time in AQ40. All we need to do is prioiritise AQ40 more than MC. Right now AQ40 is mroe of an afterthought, an - "oh, we killed nefarion... what now? lets do aq40!!", thats how we should be treating MC.

T2 leggings.. like i already said, how long are we going to be kept back when SO many of us want to make progress? There will be better drops in future instances. Dont get me wrong, im not saying people dont deserve to get them, its just everyone else doesnt deserve to be held back because MC is treated as a "high priority" instance to raid.

Legendary loot.... for a thunderfury you need 2 drops with a like 0.1% drop chance. After 7 months we just havent got that lucky yet for ANY in rg1. Will we in another 7? maybe. Do we have time/will to sit around with our thumbs up our asses and see if we do? lots would say no.

Youre right we have to get money from somewhere. But that doesnt HAVE to be MC. and the difference between farming un'goro and MC is that farming MC takes up a raid night, or the best part of. farming un'goro  could be done at any time without stopping raid progress. imagine how much slower progress would have been if we spent the first 3 hours of the MC night farming elemental fire instead of clearing to ragnaros. That's what we're doing here. It doesnt make it less rewarding when we do take down a new boss because we do MC still, but it does mean that we'll take down new bosses less frequently tahn if we spent that time in AQ40.

We have more "hard core" rules than guilds like danu, yet they are further ahead of us in instances. I see guilds wiht much more casual raid rules alongside us in progress, and i have no idea why. If we are trying to be a hardcore guild then we have all the rules but we're failing on achievements... The whole point of RG1 is that tehy were supposed to be hardcore raiders, we're in it for progress and FAST progress at that, obviously this is an opinion not shared by quite a few RG1 it seems. Blizzard releases a new instance every 6 months or so, right? maybe a little less. We "completed" BWL in just under that. We CAN keep up with the instance turnaround - we're just a little behind the rest.


Feel free to take up anything with me on TS.

And dont bother ****ing me off again, it really makes me think my contributions to this guild are completely wasted.

[Keltor]

tier 2 leggings....pffftt....go AQ40 get ur tier 2.5 leggings...

keltor out!

[Lucian]

Just out of interest, can anyone remember how many Ragnaros kills we had under our belts before moving onto BWL?

[Menedil]

just one.

[Bob]

And dont bother ****ing me off again, it really makes me think my contributions to this guild are completely wasted.

First of all, if I gave you the feeling that your contributinos to the guild are wasted, I deeply apologise for that.  There is no doubt you've put in a great deal of work (together with many others - both officers and "normal" members) with both the 20-men and the 40-men raids, and also other stuff that the guild spend it's time on.  Your work is highly appreciated and respected!

It's harmless fun. The poker game goes up pretty much when the last person is down, and as soon as nefarion respawns the poker game is shut down (...) If you really do feel its detrimental to the raid please say why.

To try and drag the discussion on this particular matter down to a more sensible stage:
Yes, I do think something like that can be detrimental to the raid, for several reasons:

• Ending the poker at the soon as Nefarian respawns is too late - at that point we should already be fully buffed, at our places and ready to start the pull at the very same second as he appears.
• Two weeks ago, I tried to time exactly when Nefarian was about to respawn, and I asked people to start buffing 5 minutes before he should do that.  Even so, we wasn't able to before 4-5 minutes after he had respawned.  I don't say this is all the poker's fault, this might have more about general focus, but I think the poker can affect general focus in a negative way.
  
• 15 minutes from we whipe and till we should start the next pull ain't a long time: one should ress the whole raid/run back, perhaps do some repairing, but most important of all: one should think about and discuss (both on TS and in raid chat) what went wrong the previous try.  We whiped for a reason, and we should try to identidy that reason, and find out what we can do better the next try to avoid the same thing.
• Last, I think half the raid (don't know how many there's room for in one game?) runnin off to play poker between tries kind of ruins the fun and lively chat we usually have on TS, and that I personally think is sad.

[Bastet]

Last, I think half the raid (don't know how many there's room for in one game?) runnin off to play poker between tries kind of ruins the fun and lively chat we usually have on TS, and that I personally think is sad.

Fun & lively to you, i would like to see a LOT less bull and a lot more focus on TS. The current TS is just out of hand, its at times hard to get orders and tactics through all the mindless banter.
 
Do you know theres a lot of ppl that have it turned off between boss fights? or that mute every1 cept the raidlead? Heck, i could be tempted where it not for the fact i actualy have to hear ppl sometimes.
 
As for the time lost on nefarion, i agree, but it seams to be hard to motivate ppl to actualy get off thier arse before they see him standing there. Might have something to do w/ fact i dont normaly lead, but somehow ppl seam to listen to TL a lot better.

[Dajo]

No offence Bastet, it's probable how you are, but TL is treating people more with respect then you do, and that would be for me one reason to listen to TL and not to you.
 
About the subject, I highly agree with Menedil on this, even tho we are not a hardcore raiding guild, we all know that RG1 aint just casual, and we are playing this game to make progress, have personal archievements, and get the loot you were looking forward too, which all results in having fun with this game. Molten Core is not something I see like fun, however I still attended all the raids, to help others, but at some point you (as in we, RG1) just have to stop it, and move on. To stop MC for all the reasons mentioned(sp) in this thread.

[Bastet]

well your more then welcome to give it a go yourselfs, during the raid i have anywhere from 5-10 ppl whispering me, and having to think off a lot of things (soulstones, timers, tactics etc) and since i dont really fancy the job in the first place i tend to end up a bit short fused. And then ppl not listening dont help my mood one bit. So to say i dont respect ppl is a bit crude.
 
Anyhow, its good i dont have to do this on a daily basis, cause the stress would prob cause me to lose intrest in wow w/in the week

[KreuZ]

About the TS being unfocused, I've never seen people not shut up when they hear that the RL is about to talk, it's abit hard to know when people are about to talk and not, we're not mind-readers. Having fun on TS is one of the few things that I like about raiding, and if we're only going to have it "serious and focus" then the raid will just become more boring and less fun.

About the poker game between Nefarian fights, I think it's alright to do it then and the problem with buffing is most likely not the poker game but people just not hearing you Bob. I myself always buff when my timer has hit 1min untill Nef spawns no matter if I'm playing Poker or not.

Raidleading is stressfull at times maybe but it's only as hard as you make it to be. There's already been set some jobs to Officers that they always do instead of the RL and you can also set some other tasks that the Officers can do aslong as they're familiar with it. One of the reasons Theodwyn quit I think was because of the stress of being the RL and I remember the fact that he did just about everything that was done by officers in MC because he didn't hand out jobs to the rest of the Officers.

Btw Bob, it's 9 people that can join the poker table including the Dealer.

[Dajo]

Well maybe I formulated it wrong, but what I mean to say is, I know you are busy with alooot of things, but so is TL, and still he's more relax and nicer to people. As I said no offence, I respect HIGHLY what you do for the guild, I know it's alot, but the way you act versus other people, is really getting on some peoples nerves, lemme give you an example:
 
We killed Nefarian for the first time, shortly after that, you fall out versus someone, and the excuse: Im in a bad mood etc. I mean how the heck can you be in a bad mood when we made such an archievement. And sorry to say, but alot other people in the guild feel this way about you. it had to be said once, and I guess im the one thats doing it now. As I said, your hard work and dedication to the whole guild and everthing around it is VERY ! ! ! respected! It's just your attitude lacking towards others on social things. I think you are a very good man, but sometimes not.
 
Dunno how to discribe this but i think this was the way

[Umbra]

Wow, a resurgance of many old old problems, the poker game can be seen as a culprit because it is a high profile thing that peopel talk about between fights, so if a fight ends badly , it's easy to blame, but to be honest, has anyone who played done something wrong/slow etc because they were playing it? I don;t know since I haven't joined but I think it's unlikely, peopel always want to find a cause/scapegoat for things they don't like.

Similarly, talking on TS between fights, it's the same thing, a distraction that is not related to the fight at hand, but I think we are all at the stage now where we won't truly let it interfere, personally I talk alot but when a red TS person starts talking (albeit with TS delay) I'll shush, no-one feels more of a nonce than the person who ignores instructions and then has to ask what to do.

Lastly, raid leaders all do a difficult and stressful job, and if you think aobut it, they are one person organising it so 39 people can get kit, I can understand if sometimes they can get stressed and annoyed (no excuse for some meanness but there we go). I will come clean and say yes I had a big problem with how Bastet seemed to treat people, to the point where I think I'm his Arch-nemesis lol, but he does do a hell of alot for the guild both in and out of game. This isn't condoning anything since I also wouldn't agree with someone saying 'well I gave you a fiver so now I'm gonna kick you in the nuts'. However he has made a marked improvement, over the last few weeks (I'm trying not to sound condescending, can you tell). Try and re-evaluate opinions now and then people, everyone changes, and it's in all of our interests to be nice to each other.

Final word, don't confuse respect for friendliness, there are some people I wouldn't class as good mates but who's judgement is sound, there are some people i like who are full of hot air, a few people are both knowledgeable and fun, but so far, none who are neither, and sometimes you need to slap someone and treat them like a bad pet if they insist on behaving that way, respect is earned ALWAYS!

[Umbra]

Edit:

Mene and bast, don't give up leading raids, you do do a good job, jsut sometimes it pays to be sweet and nice to people even if they don't deserve it (this is a carrot to juxtapose the stick in the previous paragraph)

[Neff]

I'd just like to add that i agree with umbra.






And that respect isnt something you get, you earn it. Be an ass, get treated like an ass.