Blessing of Sanctuary and the raid

[Padding]

Ok Marduk... Gorion wrote a serious mail, and even though i agree with him at ALL, i dont read that much into it, as you did
 
People see things differently, and this is only them
 
F.ex. if i had my way.... all paladins would be healadins, however i respect other peoples decicions
 
Basically i dont care whatever people specc, as long as our raid progress with steady fastness, and i believe the specc is helping there

[Vargen]

Well, I must say I don't really know much about Paladins. But it seems pretty clear that this spec isn't really welcome at all. That alone is imo reson enough to drop the discussion. If it isn't enjoyable to play, then what is the point? Wouldn't much matter how usefull one spell you gain is. It is a game, and we have allways been about the game over anything else.

I myself have a slightly feral oriented spec, not because it's needed, not because it is handy, but becasue I enjoy that aspect of my character. I'm sure there is a lot ppl can say about both Druid and Paladin. But let the spec be up to the players themselves. We have a competent bunch of Paladins, and they as everyone else may spec as they want. Ofcorse we need certain specs for raiding, but we don't force specs.

I can understand that Marduk and the other pallies might feel that their border has been overstepped here, and please understand that hybrids and hybrid specs allready get a lot of hassle in this game. I'm sure noone ment this as anything serious, but please keep in mind that it is their game to play.

...ooo, WSG popped :flirty:

[Bastet]

Seal of Command, 1 talent point needed: Gives the Paladin a chance to deal additional Holy damage equal to 70% of the damage of the attack.
 
Judging this seal causes 68 to 74 holy damage or 137 to 147 if the target is stunned

You would take the 1 Seal a paladin has that actualy does a small bit of dmg away from him? This one is more usefull then blessing of sanctuary, since paladins do oddly enough hit stuff at times.
 

Improved concentration aura, 3/3 talent points: Inreases the effect of your Concentration Aura by an additional 15% and gives all group members affected by the aura an additional 15% chance to resist silence and interrupt effects.

How often to paladins use this? almost never, cause this small dwarfen warrior w/ a name starting w/ G goes ape if he doesnt get his resist aura's. Resist/devo auras on tanks take up all paladins in a normal raid.
 

Blessing of Sanctuary, 1/1 talent points:
 
(Greater version)
Places a Blessing on the target Class, reducing damage dealt from all sources by up to 24 for 15min. In addition, when the target blocks a melee attack the attacker will take 35 holy damage.
 
now, why is this talent that good. as Marduk explained before:
 
you might say.. 24 damage reduction is crap, well you should take in consideration that tanks get hit all the time.
 
lets do an example, a tank gets hit for, lets say 2k+ hits on a BWL run? (could be more or less, but its just an example)
 
that would mean, 14,000 damage less on this certain tank. and this is just 1 tank.
 
now, lets say 5 tanks get hit for 2k hits, that would mean 240,000 less damage taken, just by this blessing.
 
now, obviousely, the less damage taken, the less mana is used to heal. it may be a minimal amount, but if you get the point of the example, that little 24 damage reduction, adds up to big amounts.

250,000 healing is about 1,5th of a healer, we carry 15 idealy, so the added gain is marginal at best. 250k on 22,500k (or in eazy therms, 1% healing less required)
 

Improved Lay on Hands, 2/2 talent points:
 
Gives the rarget of your Lay on Hands spell a 30% bonus to their armor value from items for 2 min. In addition the cooldown for your lay on Hands spell is reduced by 20min.
 
now that is a really handy talent, meaning if cast on me (round 9,800 armor unbuffed) will mean around 2940 extra armor for 2mins, not to mention the cooldown will be reduced to 40min from 60min, which is a really good thing.

Yah, 3k armor, for 2 min, every 40 min, useless.
 

now, all this big essay really point out, that Marduk can be a much better help to the raid by sacrificing some useless talents and a seal he uses mainly for solo dps.
 
that concludes my answer to that question:
 
Disclaimer: No offence was/is intented to Marduk, i just took his spec as an example, since he was the one posing this thread and claiming some points.

No offence intended but you pick appart his whole tree? Pfft, if i was him i would have kicked you in the balls, but thats just me. You want him to drop more spells he is used too so he can provide a marginal improvement for you. And which blessing would you give up for it? Cause warriors want a lot of blessings allready.

[Lucian]

Don't speak for any other paladins, but I do have a prot specced pally and I love playing him. LOVE  it.  I heal enough to keep up with the task, and I can OT or tank pretty well too.
 
Like I said, you have an offer to test run a prot specced pally in a 40 man raid.  Use it.

[Knabbel]

and why in your oppinion is that? the talents i removed from your retri tree: (Deflection, seal of command and improved judgement) benefit mostly you.

We do have a life outside the raid.... wander how long I'm busy clubbing down a lvl 55 elite?
 

Improved Judgement: 2/2 gives 2 seconds reduction on judgement spells.
 
now, what do pallys actually judge in our raids? Judgement of Light and Judgement of wisdom. (these are only used on certain bosses), now, keep in mind that both these blessings last roughly 30seconds with a cooldown of 15 seconds? (with no talent points invested).

Dude, never saw those light strains coming up from the ground? I judge light on almost every mob in MC, MA target first then MT1 target. Any idea how much mana this save throughout the whole instance? A lot of people (this is vice versa actualy ) hitting a target and get healed for 25....
 

and the last one for the retri tree,
 
Seal of Command, 1 talent point needed: Gives the Paladin a chance to deal additional Holy damage equal to 70% of the damage of the attack.
 
Judging this seal causes 68 to 74 holy damage or 137 to 147 if the target is stunned
 
conclusion, totally useless in raids.

As I said we DO have a life outside the raids....it also helps us helping out alts.....
 

now lets handle the so feared Protection tree:
 
you will loose nothing from this with my dummy spec, but gain:
 
lets list them:
Improved concentration aura, 3/3 talent points: Inreases the effect of your Concentration Aura by an additional 15% and gives all group members affected by the aura an additional 15% chance to resist silence and interrupt effects.
 
now, that is a really nice talent for healers/casters.

I think I have to agree on this one.....but need the points....
 

that would mean, 14,000 damage less on this certain tank. and this is just 1 tank.
 
now, lets say 5 tanks get hit for 2k hits, that would mean 240,000 less damage taken, just by this blessing.
 
now, obviousely, the less damage taken, the less mana is used to heal. it may be a minimal amount, but if you get the point of the example, that little 24 damage reduction, adds up to big amounts..

Lost you here. how do you get 240k?
 
 

Lasting Judgement: i put 0 talents in this talent, compared to Marduk's 1/3.
reason is, that the judgements concered (Light and wisdom) already last longer than their respective cooldowns. so its a waste of a talent point..

Explained earlier....
 
 

now that is a really handy talent, meaning if cast on me (round 9,800 armor unbuffed) will mean around 2940 extra armor for 2mins, not to mention the cooldown will be reduced to 40min from 60min, which is a really good thing.

Guess what happens when you shout out a Lay On Hands..... 0, zero, nothing, noppes and nada mana.......Pala no mana....useless. And don't say that we have mana regen, yes we do but not like 200/sec.

[Marduk]

Gorion wrote a serious post.. ha if you ask me he used his behind to read with and not his eyes, if he bothered to read it at all..
he completely failed to see the points i made and therefor reacted to them entirely wrong like the words for me personaly that means it reflects on me, and perhaps not on the other paladins.. yet he "atacks" me on it

[TeaLeaf]

Marduk, you're over-reacting and I agree with Padding, you have no reason to take offence.  Gorion *did* write a serious post exactly as you asked him to do, trying to answer the points you wanted answered. So don't hurl abuse at him for doing what you asked, he took a lot of time and thought to prepare a response for you and the least you could do is be civil in your reponse.  He even bothered to explain why and say that he was not intending to cause offence but used your spec as an example as you were the asker of the question.  That sounds very reasonable to me and does not merit your abusive response.  You also have to remember that neither of you speak English as your first language and therefore you have to allow a degree of latitude for the language used as it might be easily misunderstood or misconstrued.

Tone it down please - he may not agree with you (that's why he disagrees with the points you make and explains why) but that's no reason to start getting abusive about him.  Just cool it - this is a debate not a slanging match.

TL.

[Nefrion]

Gorion made some serious points and even tho I do not agree with all the points he makes he posted a serious answer to your question.
 
I think as Vargen mentions that you should choose the spec you like. It is not fair to demand that pallys should lay off all their offensive talents as they are boring enough to play as it is :flirty:

[Marduk]

Well ok let me put it like this then,

Judging this seal causes 68 to 74 holy damage or 137 to 147 if the target is stunned

if he would have looked that up closer he would have noticed there is more then 1 rank and that the higher ranks do more dmg
5 ranks actualy and the top rank is
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing 169.5 to 186.5 Holy damage, 339 to 373 if the target is stunned or incapacitated.

wich leads me to belieave he did not really bother to look up the skill



and also this
Quote:
if i would personally get 10 points out of retribution i would no longer have +222 atack power BOM but 185 also nerfing the raid  

again, youre wrong. in my dummy spec, youde still have 5/5 Blessing of Might, thus granting the extra 20% bonus.

is my personal opinion wrong here?

now this
Improved righteous fury, 2/3 talent points: i put 2 points in this to acess the next tier, basically this gives 35% more threat generated by righteous fury, this could be handy to get a caster out of a sticky situation..

when a caster gets agro he has more agro then the tank no ? or at least agro close to the tanks agro and the tank is stunned/sleeped/what ever when i used KTM in bwl i showed i had 10% of the tanks agro, and without taunt i seriously question how i should catch up with all that agro befor the caster gets killed


Improved Hammer of Justice, 2/3 talent points: Decreases the cooldown of your Hammer of justice spell by 10 seconds.

used 2 points to get the next tier of the tree, but still a handy decrease to the instant pally stun cooldown. which will help raids while clearing bwl packs

Did he even check the amount of critters that are stun immume, there are LOTS and LOTS

the effect of bosanc i already spoke of in other posts

but this bugs me the most
now, all this big essay really point out, that Marduk can be a much better help to the raid by sacrificing some useless talents and a seal he uses mainly for solo dps.

we raid 3 nights a week, that still leaves me with a lot of time that i do play wow but do not raid, i come to 5man groups to dps also scholo and strat i do quite well if i do say to myself, i like to pvp, and i have trouble killing people as it is already, melee is fine but the protection does not "reflect"  dmg on casters, so that is rogues and warriors i can deal with then

i help alts out, a lot and you would have me take over an hour do clear deadmines becos i did not pack my dps? or leave me unable to do the instances a bit more high level without getting an other level 60 to help out?

it bugs me that when i have played a class since the opening of wow and spend many 100s of gold to try every spec out there that someone comes along and claim to know everything better and not caring for my personal fun

[TeaLeaf]

it bugs me that when i have played a class since the opening of wow and spend many 100s of gold to try every spec out there that someone comes along and claim to know everything better and not caring for my personal fun

Translation:

It frustrates me when someone challenges my view and considers that other talent builds which I personally would not enjoy are better than the one I currently use.

There, that sounds better doesn't it?  It actually applies equally to Gorion.  You are both making a case, you both have made some good points, which is why it is called a debate.

TL.

[Bastet]

In guild chat someone last nite brough up the point that in TBC this spell is getting a massive buff. But on 25 ppl would you carry 4-5-6 paladins to be able to have all the buffs? Paladins are awsome healers and such, but 5-6 on 25 is too big an imbalance.
 
asuming 3 paladins: BOK/BOM/BOS or with 4: BOK/BOM/BOS/BOL i dont know, but as a dps (or caster, BOM = BOW) i dont think i want to give up any of those, specialy for what then would still be a minor improvement since most the BC stuff i seen packs +45 stamina.

[Secohan]

BoSanc. becomes useful only when against like 10 or more mobs around hitting tanks or someone else otherwise it really nerfs paladins social wow life which uses to play in a specific build.
As other palas mentioned before Holy is the raiding build instead of prot but only for current situation which all builds will be more reliable with the incoming TBC expansion. We already solved some crowded mobs problem with Sacrifice which deals us 345-550 dmg every hit on tank while dealing with 10 mobs around. On the other hand Hgh end instances mostly resists too much to our holy dmg which will take away %50 of BoSanc. aim that dealing holy dmg (only Naxx. is the instance that holy dmg works charming)
 
Every player has own playing style which makes him/her better then other builds f.ex. if u force Padding getting into Ret. build he will act like a fish which is trying to fly:roflmao: (/hug padding)
 
So here is a very very small solution who ever wants to get BoSanc. can check below :narnar:
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=5163

[Menedil]

So here is a very very small solution who ever wants to get BoSanc. can check below :narnar:
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=5163

Stack it wtih this http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=13538 and youre practically immune to melee dmg!!!!!1

[Marduk]

to TL

that WAS the political version already

i myself would have preferred the Paper hat + sledgehammer demonstration on a coconut or watermelon

[TeaLeaf]

Well as long as you remember it's a debate not a slanging match then we're all fine.


TL.