RG1 Raid Attendance

[TeaLeaf]

This post/rant is not in my role as officer, but a personal plea from me to all RG1 members.

RG1's raid was called off early last night after only 34 people turned up - we managed to get this number to 35 by calling around and getting someone to stop something else they had planned to do and help out.  We had the Twin Emperors waiting for us and C'Thun trash to work on to start to learn and it was a MASSIVE disappointment to have to call the raid.

If we plan to finish AQ40 before TBC and move to Naxx properly then we CANNOT afford to lose another progress raid due to lack of people between now and the TBC release.

RG1 currently operates with 50 people.  5 out of every 6 raid attendance is required and this means we should typically have 41-42 people for every raid.

Only 5 people posted to say they would be away or late. You do the math.  If you are not going to be there then you must post to tell us!  Use the absence/vacation threads!

RG1 operates 2 types of raid, the farming runs (I personally classify everything up to and including Princess Huhuran as being on farm status) and the progress raids.  Last night was a progress raid - we needed to get more experience and get better still at the Defender trash before the Twins, we needed to get more encounters with the Twins under our belt (we have only downed them once so far) and we need to get a good look at the C'Thun trash so that we can work out quickly how to cope with them and get to C'Thun's chamber.  We wasted a platinum wrapped golden opportunity to do it last night and the instance is now reset so we have to start all over again, putting us back another week on our schedule.

RG1's raid goal is to down C'Thun by the end of 2006.  This gives us about 5 weeks and we cannot afford to waste and lose raid days to lack of attendance.  If people do not turn up then we will struggle to cope with farming raids, let along progress raids.

If people do not show up and consistently FILL the RG1 raid then we will NOT progress - and much as we will continue to clear BWL to gear up those without all of their wanted BWL items, I and many others already find the instance a bit boring as it does not present RG1 with a challenge.  The only challenge in BWL at the moment is 'how fast can we clear it tonight'.

If people do not show up and people STILL want to progress then the Guild will be left with only one option - to recruit MORE people into each class and then to operate a raid queue for each class so that each class member takes a turn at being bumped out of the raid and left to sit on the sideline.

I did a couple of RAVOTEs last night to ask some questions of RG1 members.

• Would you support recruiting one more to each class to ensure that the RG1 raid is FULL every raid night?

   RG1 members did not show a clear view here as the results of the vote were split 50/50 for and against the idea.

• If the officers decide a particular class is not meeting its attendance requirement would you support recruiting an additional person to that class?

   The answer from RG1 members here was clear - 79% of those present voted YES to recruit more into classes we identify as failing to meet attendance requirements.[/LIST]

The message is clear.  If you want SOG RG1 to continue to make progress and SOG to build a reputation as one of the premiere raiding Guilds on Aszune then we need attendance.  We do fantastically well compared to other Guilds who raid up to twice as much as we do each week and it would be a damn shame for us to drop back into obscurity as other Guilds defeat bosses we should already have defeated.

If you 'might' be planning a 'night off' then talk to your fellow class members and MAKE SURE that there will be enough of them at the raid to cover for your absence.  If we are going to remain short then see what you can do to take a different night off instead.

I personally want to finish AQ40 before TBC, we all do.  It frustrates the nuts off me when we lose a golden opportunity to work on progress because 30% of Guardians are absent and we are 10% below our MINIMUM attendance requirement to raid!!  We cannot close this gap with Soldiers as in AQ40, if we bring people who do not know the fights there is a high probability that they will wipe us.  Even if they do not wipe us, their gear will be of sufficiently poor quality for them to die and be just as useless as the empty slot (no offence intended here to Soldiers, it's just a raid fact of life).

Be there or my guess is the officers will have to act.  And that means more people in your class and you will have to sit on the bench and miss raids.  It's the choice of every RG1 member here.  You want your RG1 slot?  Use it or lose it.

Apologies for the length of this rant, but damn I wanted us to start controlling the Twins (and we are a nats whisker from doing so) and learning the C'Thun trash.  Last night's called raid put us back a full week and we CANNOT lose any more progress nights like that.

TL.

[Akall]

While I completly agree that RG1 ppl need to show up more I'm not so convienced that recruting more players is the solution:

Is true that with more players we can fill up spots left free by RG1 but this has a price: ppl LIFOed out from raids with the loss of hours of fun/play and, why not, of rare loot or DKPs. And by doing this we do not sanction only ppl that do not show but also ppl that constantly commiting with RG1.

I'm far from whining/ranting at what TL said but maybe we should demote people having a low attendance and THEN recruit more skilled people.

[Deadlyspirit]

Only 1 thing to say.

/agree Teaelle

[StrontiumDog]

Sadly I didn't get home until 11pm last night, so pretty annoyed I missed the raid but it was out of my control.

[TeaLeaf]

Akall, it's not the preferred solution, but we have geared these people up and they have chosen to be part of RG1.  If we demote all and recruit then we will nto go back to Twins for another 8 weeks minimum whilst we gear up and they learn.  The quickest solution is to get existing members to show up - and trust me we have already tried everything else. The only remaining thing is to recruit more.  So either turn up or prepare to find yourself in a queue just like Righteous, Anything, Singularity and every other top raid guild does.  We *are* unique on the Aszune server in operating a top level raid group without a massive over-supply of people.  If people do not show up then this will have to change.

TL.

[FatBob]

Whilst i agree with TL,
The idea of getting bumped from a raid and losing the first c'thun kill to someone who has just started raiding with us to make up the numbers is just NOT an option especially after the amount of time spent from day 1 in AQ40.
I think this is what the bulk of people will be afraid of and upset by.
 
I personally would welcome with open arms new people for when Naxx starts cos then we all start equal in a new dungeoun so not a problem being bumped then but for now its a problem
 
Replace those who have left/retired then replace those who contiually fail to show on progress nights
 
take off the mink glove m8, expose the iron fist and get busy with it !!
 
just some thoughts thats all
 
frustrated from cambridge:frusty:

[Akall]

But wont it be the same thing TL? Actually recruting ppl without experience and keep the old Guardians in and demoting the Guardians that do not show up? In both cases you have to gear the new ones and teach them tactics?

[ratatosk]

Yea it was damn long... but i think its needed:g:
 

If you 'might' be planning a 'night off' then talk to your fellow class members and MAKE SURE that there will be enough of them at the raid to cover for your absence. If we are going to remain short then see what you can do to take a different night off instead.

:clap:
 
And to achieve this and for all that matters achieve a better attendance ppl need to feel appreciated and feel apart of what we are doing. this sounds like a cliche but thats what we need i think. get ppl to care for the guild, make ppl let to know one another. Today i think we are to many ppl in the guild, I see ppl in IF from SoG that i never have heard of, and there are many soooo many!! last night i saw perhaps 5-10 SoGérs that i never heard off running around in IF.. I dont feel related to them and that sux i think. I have bee in SoG for over a Year and during the latter part it has become more and more "less friendly" (cant find a better word dont get me wrong here) and i think mant ppl agree and it is perhaps a link to that we have expanded ALOT lately.. OMG i can go on and on and on..:doh:
 
So therefor my conclusions are:
 

• Ofcourse we need to get attendance up i support it but plz dont recruite more ppl outside the guild
• Let each Class decide what is needed
• Plz ppl if all lays more focus on the raid and DONT spam the channels with crap, whispers etc iam sure progress will be made.. (last night during pulls ppl where spamming like crazy do that inbetween) dont kill me now:getmecoat:
• And for god sakes get a positive attitude... not that " we wont make it we are to few"
• And finally the most delicate Part!! check ur own stat during fights what have I achieved during this nights raid?? I check Dmg after a night of raiding and iam amased how much dmg/heal output can differ. i have seen that it differs 4-500K in dmg between ppl in the same class and thats to much i think, yea it differs in gear but not 500K on a BWL run! KK Now iam dead:bye2:

I can do this all day Iam sry if i get missunderstood in this matter its damn hard to write and get the things out right and TL this is a long post aswell
 
So Viva la SoG
 
Best regards Rata :flirty:

[Soalra]

agree with rata about letting each class look at if they need more people (with officers input ofc) but ive said a few times now that i dont understand why leave people in who dont attend just because theyve been in a while, if ur attendance is low and theres no outstanding reason why are you left in rg1?
 
i looked at the recruitment page last night and it showed 4 spaces in rg1, we had 35 people last night so even with these 4 it wouldnt have been enough, i know some couldnt attend and posted to that effect but as tea said not all posted and some seem to miss wipe night all the time.
 
new people will be needed in certain classes that are repeatedly undermanned but these people will need gearing this wont change if u leave old ones in or not, all it means is that ull get some people with low attendance coming getting some loot and not coming for a couple of week meanwhile the new boys who can meet attendance may miss experience and loot that will help them and the raid as a whole just cause they didnt whisper fast enough.
 
so classes that are undermanned yes recruit more but dont give special treatment to ones that dont meet requirements!

[Padding]

Background:
 
We need 40+ people each week to make sure the raid progresses
 
From the above responses, it seems that people want to be sure that they are always assured a spot in the raid. With the %-attendance we have and the number of players, thats almost impossible. The only reason we usually get to 40, is because that a lot of people have 100% attendance, and i think thats nice, but we cant rely on people having 100% attendance all the time
 
Have to say that im willing to sacrifice myself some raid days, to make sure the raid goes on. This means that people will have to be used to skipping raids from time to time. Not fun, but necessary.
 
Possible solutions:
 
Raid signup system:
 
We can use our existing signup system to make sure we know how many will be at a certain raid each day.
 
Pros:
Raids can be planned and officers can choose the most qualified persons
Staticstics show who's there, and who's not
Better chance to pick class balance
 
Cons:
A lot more work for the officers (its more than you think)
Doesnt fix attendance, just shows how many is signed up
Unfair to people who cant reach a computer at signup time
 
Recruit more people for RG1 so we have enough each week:
 
Pros:
We should always have 40 for each raid
The raid will always go on
Officers have better possibility to do class balance before the raid, to pick the best people for the specific raid day
 
Cons:
Some people will have to skip a raid from time to time
Doesnt necessarily ensure class balance
 
Demote the people who doesnt meet the criteria and recruit:
 
Pros:
Over time we should have the right people with the right attendance
 
Cons:
We will lose people with excellent gear and good motivation who is our friends
New people that will be recruited might need a major rekitting
 
Conclusion:
 
These are the solutions i see which should fix the problems we are facing. Im in doubts myself to as which solution is the best one (if possible at all), but i lean towards recruiting more people and then do a system for each class (like the paladins have) so you make a fair system to where you skip a certain raid from time to time
 
The solution should be implemented to make sure the raid progresses. Whatever it takes to reach our goals without comprimising our integrety

[Soalra]

pads its the same classes all the time that lack members and this is repeatedly on nights where we NEED 40 ppl to do the raid not bwl or early aq40, its these that are the problem
 
think your being far too centimental about people who youve played with a long time, if they dont show they aint helping anymore and when they aint showing you dont have their gear so uve lost the gear anyway (with exception of possibly 1 raid per week, on runs we currently farm anyway)and would be at the same point as if you brought new people except now you have 40 ppl!
 
but another point about raids themselves, do aq40 thursday and sunday and if not enough show for 1 of those days we dont do bwl for week, so ppl cant get their loot raids without doin the wipe runs, or perhaps even just give priority to those who show for wipe runs ahead of the ones that just show for loot days, will force them to show for wipes or just not raid, then on the tuesday IF we have done 2 days of aq40 we can do bwl (which now can be done in around 2hours 30 min or less and this leaves a few more hours for aq40 (most likely cthun attempts))
 
i can imagine everyone sees what im sayin as very harsh but i dont much care i want to progress and want to raid

[KreuZ]

I disagree on recruiting more people from all classes, it not only makes the high attendance people miss raids(which I personally wouldn't care about), but it also means we have to train new people again and again after each progress we made. If we for example get C'thun to Phase2 in one raid and then call it. Then the next raid will most likely have different people in every class and it will take some time for them to learn it aswell. Especially in a fight like C'thun where every player has to be at the top of his game.

Personally I'd like to either recruit 1 more in the class that we keep needing or to just get the current people we have to get their ass in gear and join raids.

[Padding]

pads its the same classes all the time that lack members and this is repeatedly on nights where we NEED 40 ppl to do the raid not bwl or early aq40, its these that are the problem

Im not so sure about this really.... Last year we needed prieests, earlier in the year we needed more Paladins, generally throughout the year we've been lacking druids (and we still are) then we needed hunters for huhuran. We sometimes lack warriors because we like to have 6 warriors pr. raid since it easies boss fights a lot.
 
I dont always think its the same classes that we are missing. Probably only mages (maybe priests) have been the only stable one for a LONG time. Rest of the time, we are lacking people in certain classes.
 
Personally i think its more about being 40+ than being the exact amount. Naturally we should not over recruit massively, but it seems people are trying to find the right formula to be the exact number, but i just dont think thats possible. Somehow someway we need a number somewhat higher, and somebody has to sit out raiding some nights. I really dont think that can be helped

[ratatosk]

:withstupid: that means Kreuz
 
We need the same ppl to attend... if get in new ppl all the time they dont have the gear for it!!! or the knowledge.
And Hunters for Huhu have been 1 time mr padmeister;) and that could have been done with 3 hunters that time.. if we are focused. but there u go "no it cant be done" line was spoken!!

[Soalra]

tend to lack priests/druids/rogues (perhaps 1-2 of each) did lack hunters not sure bout this now with the new ppl and now a warrior with raggys leaving and it has been fairly consistent for some time now and espeically on wipe nights