Meta Gem - Skyfire

[Gorion]

are you forgetting boss and mob spell damage is Much more higher then player spell damage..?
 
plus, its a 5% proc rate, this doesnt mean it WILL proc 5 times in a 100 casts, and even if it did, i doubt 5 x 50% haste casts will be that beneficial, it could also be that it procs more then 5 times, but my point still stays, a 5% chance to get 50% haste does not > 0.60% crit and 1% spell reflect
 
you should also consider that the 0.60% crit will effect every spell you will cast, whilst the 50% haste will only effect a limited number of spells
 
 
dont base everything on equations, it aint always the right way!

[TeaLeaf]

you should also consider that the 0.60% crit will effect every spell you will cast, whilst the 50% haste will only effect a limited number of spells
 
 
dont base everything on equations, it aint always the right way!

The equations are pretty much always right.  The chance to proc and the chance to crit are both just that, chances.  Not feelings, but the laws the programmers design a trinket to follow.

So, we have a 5% proc and a 0.67% proc.

The 5% proc gives 2.5% extra DPS.
The 0.67% crit gives 0.36% extra DPS plus a 1% spell reflect.

Both are a chance.  
But one chance is many times better than the other.
Both reflect an average proc over the long term.

2.5% extra dps > 0..36% extra dps imo, because the 1% reflect is so little used and therefore of neglibile value.  When would a 1% reflect be worth it when you know it cannot be relied upon a sit is a 1% chance?  It has a minor PVP use, maybe imo.

My question was not really which was more valuable (5% proc clearly is) but more why there is such a huge difference in benefits - I was wondering if my logic/math was incorrect.


TL.

[Sandrion]

No ofcourse the DPS increase will not be exactly 2.5% all of the time, but on average. It will even be more, since it also procs of all spells including instant casts; so it will even be more then 2.5% not less as you say. The same goes for the 1% chance to reflect a spell and the crit chance, so I don't know what you're trying to say with this :g: .
 
And I didn't forget that bosses to more damage. However the casters will generally not be hit by direct damage spells. That leaves just AoE and volleys, which don't hit that hard nor happen often. Just consider the simple fact that if everyone in the raid group would take the amount of AoE damage that is nessacary to make up that ~1.5% difference, it would be completely impossible for the healers to keep everyone up. ((1.5% / 1%) * the mage's DPS (800) * 25 = 30000 incoming DPS!).
 
The fact that the 5% chance to increase the casting speed of your next spell nets you a higher DPS increase on average then the crit and spell reflect on the other gem under every condition is undeniable. I don't see how anyone could question this :unsure: .
 
Although I agree with you that things are usually a bit different in practice; when analysing something that's related to WoW's game mechanics, theorycrafting is a good way to determain what's 'best'.
 
 
Edit: basicly what TL said in the above post.

[KreuZ]

The equations are pretty much always right.  The chance to proc and the chance to crit are both just that, chances.  Not feelings, but the laws the programmers design a trinket to follow.

So, we have a 5% proc and a 0.67% proc.

The 5% proc gives 2.5% extra DPS.
The 0.67% crit gives 0.36% extra DPS plus a 1% spell reflect.

Both are a chance.  
But one chance is many times better than the other.
Both reflect an average proc over the long term.

2.5% extra dps > 0..36% extra dps imo, because the 1% reflect is so little used and therefore of neglibile value.  When would a 1% reflect be worth it when you know it cannot be relied upon a sit is a 1% chance?  It has a minor PVP use, maybe imo.

My question was not really which was more valuable (5% proc clearly is) but more why there is such a huge difference in benefits - I was wondering if my logic/math was incorrect.


TL.

Your logic/math looks correct and it's pretty obvious from a caster's point of view which one is better in a long boss fight. The difference in benefits I don't understand myself either since the 5% proc rate gem would be better in both pvp and pve for a Caster. The only reason I could see someone take the other gem is if he doesn't like the random chances of procs. I guess you can just blame it on old crazy Blizzard.

[Halakria]

Due to the triple nerf atm [Mystical Skyfire Diamond] should grant 15% possibility to gain 320 haste for 6 secs (maybe 4 again), but with an internal CD of 45 sec. http://www.wowwiki.com/Mystical_Skyfire_Diamond
 
Not a great proc definitly, so Ember and Chaotic become a nice choose imo.
Now, Chaotic http://www.wowwiki.com/Chaotic_Skyfire_Diamond is the one i'm using atm, grant +12 spell crit rating and +3% Critical Damage.
In raid this means that i'll do 3% more damage for 35% to 45% of the time, depending on auras/totems/spells.
 
On the other side Ember http://www.wowwiki.com/Ember_Skyfire_Diamond grants +14 spell dam and +2% Int. Since i've got 500 Int that would be 10 Int / 150 mana.
Is this gem worth of a try or not?
Has anyone lost a few time to recalculate the new Mystical damage increase?
 
Ty

[Sandrion]

The [item]Ember Skyfire Diamond[/item] is a kind of underwhealming imo. 10 int and a bit of +damage is not very much for a meta gem. Additionally +damage doesn't scale well.
 
I'd stick with the [item]Chaotic Skyfire Diamond[/item], which should net you a damage increase of between 2.13% (fire+Ignite) and 2.48% (arcane/frost), assuming a 40% critical strike chance. Crits also can cause stuff to proc, like the [item]The Lightning Capacitor[/item] trinket, so this gem can be slightly more beneficial in some cases.
 
The [item]Mystical Skyfire Diamond[/item] is a bit behind that. 6sec /(100% / 15% * (1.5sec to 3sec) + 45sec) * 20% haste = between 2.18% and 1.85%. Which will be slightly worse if you take casting lag and such into account.
 
Keep in mind that these numbers may not be exact, but I hope it helps.

[Nefertem]

amagad Sandrion is still around? :blink:

[TeaLeaf]

use 14 damage + 2% intellect metagem now on the basis that the activation requirements for th eother gems are now muhc more difficult to meet given that most mages have gone heavily down the red & yellow gem route.

TL.

[Halakria]

The Capacitor in couple with [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] (ghhhh :dribble:) could create serious damage :boxing:...
I'll stick to Chaotic so :flirty: ty all

[Sandrion]

Wouldn't it be worth it to get two purple or green gems somewhere in your gear, so you can use the [item]Chaotic Skyfire Diamand[/item] instead of the [item]Ember Skyfire Diamond[/item]? It may be more valueable then 10 spell hit/crit or 12 +damage, including Ember's bonus :unsure: .
 
And yes Nef I'm still here :flirty: . I'm not online as much though, since I'm a bit bussy IRL.

[TeaLeaf]

Damage is worth more than Crit, so the trinkets mentioned will underperform others with good amounts of +damage generally.

Re the colour gems, haste > all atm, so yellow/orange is the flavour of choice.  Worth far more then other stats, so it is not really worth going for blue with stamina or green (with what!) to get a meta gem that does less damge than the +14 damage & 2% int.

TL.

[Sandrion]

Hmm, I didn't think about haste gems; probably because I haven't followed recent changes closely enough. 10 spell haste is at least 0.7% damage (depending on how much you already have ofcourse). But that still leaves a 1.4ish% difference, of which I'm not sure Ember's bonus can fill :g: . Naturally it all depends on spec and gear, but I think the [item]Chaotic Skyfire Diamond[/item] will outedge the others in most cases.
 
Anyway, putting your data in Vontre's mage DPS sheet is probably the easiest way to find out what's best, in case anyone is interested. No point in guessing without specifics .

[TeaLeaf]

Spell Crit = 22.08 spell crit rating per 1% crit, so the 12 crit rating gem gives a 0.54% improvement in chance to crit along with a 3% boost to all crit damage, plus a loss of haste or damage somewhere else in the system by having to match its socket requirements.

Haste = 15.7 spell haste rating per 1% increase in casting speed, so the sockets you get to use when not trying to fit the crit metagem requirements allow two more yellow haste gems, 10 haste each, so 20 haste total and an increase of 1.27% in casting speed and all crit or non-crit dps.

So simplistically the choice is:

0.54% improvement in chance to crit along with a 3% boost to all crit damage

v

1.27% increase in casting speed and all crit or non-crit dps

Using Lhivera’s Theorycraft-o-Matic and a standard 8 x Fireball/1x Scorch rotation and my mage's stats this works out to about a 6 dps increase for the crit gem, or a 17 dps increase for the haste option ignoring the additional damage the haste option meta would give.

Assuming you have the mana to support the increased casting speed (and assuming you are already hit-capped) then the haste option is worth more than anything else, certainly for mages imo.

In general, for most casting classes and circumstances and assuming you are already hit-capped:

Haste > Damage > Crit (assumes you not arcane)


TL.

[Sandrion]

Haste = 15.7 spell haste rating per 1% increase in casting speed, so the sockets you get to use when not trying to fit the crit metagem requirements allow two more yellow haste gems, 10 haste each, so 20 haste total and an increase of 1.27% in casting speed and all crit or non-crit dps.

You'll only need to lose 10 haste rating, if you swap two [item]Quick Lionseye[/item]'s for two [item]Forceful Seaspray Emerald[/item]'s. But the 'cheapest' thing to do is probably swapping two [item]Runed Crimon Spinel[/item]'s for two [item]Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst[/item]'s, since 10 haste will most likely be worth more then 12 +damage.

[Sandrion]

I hope you don't mind, but I took the liberty of recalculating your results using Lhivera's Theorycraft-o-matic again, with the stats from your most recent armory profile (543int, 185haste, 111hit, 319crit, 1244+firedmg). (I hope they're right).
 
With full buffs, I got 2033.99DPS as 'current' score and 2048.25DPS with the [item]Choatic Skyfire Diamond[/item], by replacing one red gem by a purple one (you already had a purple one is your shoulder slot for the gem bonus) or 2048.37DPS if you swapped one yellow gem for a green one. It's only a 0.7% increase, but it's still fairly nice. However if you would have had to drop two red gems the difference would have been a bit smaller (0,41% (red->purple) to 0.42% (yellow->green)).
The unbuffed results where a bit higher, but not by all that much.
 
You'll lose 11 or 12 int as well, but I think that's definately worth it.
 
P.S.: One thing that definately suprised me is that +6 spell damage is worth more then +5 haste rating; even with your stats. I expected it to be the other way around, since haste scales a lot better then +damage :g: . So I was wrong about that in my previous post.