I fear we are facing another disaster

[Le Rouge]

As most of you probably don't know, since Israel has vacated the Gaza strip from any Israeli settlers and army presence, a couple of years ago, the south of Israel has been under constant terrorist missles attacks, mostly by the Hamas. These stories usually don't make foreign news, since Israeli citizens were usualy "only" hurt and not many have died (although some have).
However, in the south of Israel, children did not go to their kindergarden if it was not fully proofed from missles (and it usualy was not), citizens escaped from this cities, and families were constantly traumatized by the missles falling near them.
 
This is hard to grasp, but try to imagine missles from Ireland, or even Scotland (sorry Whitey ;-) ), bombing England.
 
These attacks worsened in the past weeks, but due to the coming elections in Israel, no one found the guts to retaliate. Last week, the Israeli airforce started bombing targets in Gaza, by that unfortunately also hurting citizens (although collateral damage is relatively low), and not only Hamas, and although I am against hurting citizens (or anyone else, for that matter; war sucks, if you are not aware of that...), I also do not accept their body count and certainly cannot live with the fqac tthat Israel has vacated the territory, but is still under attack.
Anyhow, Israel could not wait anymore, when major cities (but even it were only scattered villages, it does not matter), are being bombed for so many months.
This evening, the army is also going into Gaza. I fear this will only mean more injuries and dead, from both sides. This is what Hamas has been waiting for. They have no value for human lives, they do not care about hurting children (Israeli or Palestinian), they just continued bombing and hurting innocent citizens, until they triggered the entrance by the army, in order to try and hurt as many as possible with suicide bombs, booby traps, etc.
I hope we will not see another disaster (this is how I see the war a couple of years ago, both for Lebanon and for Israel), and I hope Lebanon (with Hizballah) will not join forces with Hamas and attack from the north. If that happens, I truly hope no Israeli will still think we are living in switzerland...
I feel it is important to stress that during the past week, Israel has agreed to stop any retaliation, in case a country (any country) would agree to post forces in Gaza to enforce the peace. No one agreed, not even Egypt or Jordan, which are Arab countries with which Israel has a peace agreement. In fact, Egypt stated it is all Hamas' fault.
Let's hope bombs don't start explodin in TLV, like they used to some years ago, let's hope someone will reason with Hamas. Let's hope, that this year continues better than it started...
 
Eyal.

[Jabbs]

I have heard from other sources what Hamas has been doing.

To me it seems that this area of the world will always been in a state of conflict while people continue to disregard human life (Hamas so I hear, suicide bombers and terrorists alike).

Le Rouge - Salam to you.

[TeaLeaf]

I appreciate your point of view, but note that it is but one point of view.  Both sides of the story need to be more understood, mainly by the two countries involved as killing each other never solved anything and invading a country never stopped a war.  I'm afraid I have low regard for all parties in this conflict, including some ot the British involvement in years past.  The thing I dislike most though is either party trying to claim to the moral high ground as both have sunk so far as to be slightly lower than neck-deep in their own mess.

TL.

[Doorman]

Blame Britain. At the end of the day we messed up.

[Dingo]

Blame Britain. At the end of the day we messed up.

Harsh Ron, we can only guide children into their potential futures, what they do with that knowledge and power, can only be in their own hands.
 
Conspiracy theories aside, experts have proven that the Palestinians and Jews are from the same tribe (DNA testing) so regardless of Religious belief they are all brothers\family........which can only bring us back to the one real question.........
 
Which side's Religious Mentors stand to gain the most from continued conflict?......a whole new thread I am sure

[T-Bag]

I'm not supporting what Hamas is doing, however it is far from unjustified.
Imagine if every time a political party was voted in in this country, France assassinated them, using weapons far superior to ours given by one of their allies.
Imagine if their millitary just came in one day and said I want this plot of land that both of us has agreed not to build on to be mine. And we'll say the area of land NEXT to that can't be lived on. Anyone living there must move out immediately.
Imagine if you were living in the same area of someone the french government deems to be a terrorist OR the family of a terrorist, and your house was bombed (again by high tech weapons given to them by their ally)

Hamas has been elected legitimately by the people, and they are being targeted by Israel. They don't have high-tech weapons. MANY MANY more of their civilians are killed and injured, roughly 1/8th of these recently have been children. These lives are not reported. The small number of Israeli injuries are given priority. Nobody will take action against Israel because America will vito any motions to that effect. Their only option is to launch un-aimed missiles. We're talking the sort of technology used in WWII vs the latest weapons made in America.

There will be no peace between these countries while Isreal refuses to recognise the elected officials of Hamas (which I doubt will happen for a very long time). The only thing I can see changing will be America's power shrinking and a few middle eastern states joining the fight (and they won't be on Israel's side.

I'm sure you can guess which side I feel more sorry for. I don't like to see any countries at war, but Palestinians are fighting for the very land the live on. If they give it up their neighbours will loose theirs the next week, and so on. Nobody will step in and stop it. Nobody else cares.

[Dr Sadako]

Hamas has been elected legitimately by the people, and they are being targeted by Israel. They don't have high-tech weapons. MANY MANY more of their civilians are killed and injured, roughly 1/8th of these recently have been children. These lives are not reported. The small number of Israeli injuries are given priority. Nobody will take action against Israel because America will vito any motions to that effect. Their only option is to launch un-aimed missiles. We're talking the sort of technology used in WWII vs the latest weapons made in America.

First of all you need to get some facts straight. Hamas is a terrorist organization. If you look at the world stance towards Hamas at the moment only Iran supports them and not any of the other Arabic/Islamic neighboring countries. Sure they were elected but claiming to stand for democracy with guns always present clearly shows what they are on about. The UN, EU and the USA have declared Hamas a terrorist organisation. Even Human rights watch and Amnesty International have condoned the attacks by Hamas (and Israel for that matter). A side note to this, which is as interesting as CIA training Bin Laden, is that Israel funded Hamas in the 70s to break up PLO. Well, that is a different story.

Second, Hamas have weapons that up to date. Sure they don't have super ninja laser guided robot systems but saying it is WWII standard is just naive. Most of Hamas weapons are supported by Iran.

Third, there have been many cease fires throughout the years and if you just look at the last years these cease fires have been broken by Hamas targeting Israeli civilians lobbing in Qasam rockets. If you look at this graph you get the number of Qasam rockets over the last 5 years. Note the correlation between Hamas winning the election Jan 2006 and the number of rockets ...

MANY MANY more of their civilians are killed and injured, roughly 1/8th of these recently have been children. These lives are not reported. The small number of Israeli injuries are given priority. Nobody will take action against Israel because America will vito any motions to that effect. Their only option is to launch un-aimed missiles.

Saying it is their "only option" is just silly. When Palestine had their first election in 10 years and Hamas won almost all world countries (excluding Iran) and the UN  said that if Hamas and their government should be recognised they need to 1. put down their guns, 2. recognise Israel as a state. Hamas did neither and thus the monetary aid to Palestine have stopped. This means of course that the Palestinian people will suffer because of Hamas. It is not a huge surprise that we are here today. Hamas is a greater threat to the Palestinians than Israel.

I just want to be clear that I don't take any side in this conflict. It is way more complicated than it could be summarised in a short post like this. But portraying Hamas as the nice guys that stand for democracy and being the victim is not accurate or true. Israel have their part in this conflict as well. It is just sad that civilians on both sides are used as pawns in the political play.

[Le Rouge]

T-Bag, I do not justify everything Israel did during the past 30 years (nor do I accept the behaviour of the Palestinian people in 1948, against the UN decision, which started all this mess), but you neglected to relate to my two main issues:
1. Egypt (along with most other countries, but let's focus on an Arab coutry) thinks Israel is right and that Hamas is the assaulting party here. I can't recall even a single time in which Egypt has supported Israel against a Palestinian faction.
2. Israel has evacuated ALL of the settlements and soldiers from Gaza, by that stimulating a very hard internal debate and causing huge damages to thousands of families, BUT the Palestinian rockets are pouring from the sky like rain in the UK. I realy would not want you or anyone else to send his children to live under what you refer to as "un-aimed missles". Sure, they do not aim them to hit a specific house, they just send it towards CIVILIAN cities.
 
I do remember, some 10 years ago, before Hizballah had his effect on the Palestinians, and before Hamas has gained power, that busses of Palestinians came to the Isreali beaches, that lots of Israelis went to buy merchandise at the Palestinian cities, which sky rocked the Palestinian economy. Basically, I think that when the economy flourishes, it helps the parties to live near each other. But no one is entering Palestinian cities now to buy anything, do they?

[TeaLeaf]

:ph34r:

Is evacuating invading troops from half of the places you should never have been laudable?  Not sure it is.

Whether or not Hamas is a terrorist organisation it still won the election and the then ruling party still managed to lose.  Making the link between missile attacks and an election win is tenuous at best.  I could equally claim a link between the number of dildo sales and Labour being voted in - the attack comparison is as silly unless you look at the background to see why the 'other' party lost - ineffectiveness in dealing with the situation with Israel.

Do people buy things in Palestine?  That's a seriously wierd one to bring up as 'evidence'.  When a country is  blockaded so often and for so long, no wonder people do not buy there, you can't get in, you can't get out and even when you can there is no stock of anything to buy.  Sure you can pull troops back, but when you operate a 'go slow' in the name of safety checks at border patrols then you can be sure nobody will go shopping there!

Are politicians interested in a conflict that gives them political power?  damn right they are, I doubt many would want a serious push for peace, just check how many Israeli leaders got lost leadership elections on a pro-peace platform.  So maybe Hamas winning is not so different to Israel?

Let's look closer to home: Remember the different factions in Northern Ireland/Eire and when the IRA had no control over them.  Was it right to blame the IRA for non-IRA faction terrorist action?  Is everything Hamas does legal?  Almost certainly not and I absolutely do not condone all their actions, but you also have to concede that some of the attacks launched by Israel with US military support on an primitively armed Palestine have been nothing short of attrocities.  Both are wrong, but one has multi-million dollar miltary hardware & financial support so it is not exactly a level miltary playing field.

Real hot potato this issue, too many are in the wrong and too many have ingrained hatred running through them.  They make their own bed to lie in.

The TV solution was provided back in the eighties by the US general on the Kenny Everett show:

"round them all up, put them in a field and bomb the *******s".

They are all wrong and we're not here to announce support for one or the other.  Let's debate by all means, but keep it balanced.

:getmecoat:

TL.

[Doorman]

:ph34r:

  .....Let's debate by all means, but keep it balanced.

:getmecoat:
TL.

That's the toughie! :g:

[T-Bag]

Hamas have weapons that up to date. Sure they don't have super ninja laser guided robot systems but saying it is WWII standard is just naive. Most of Hamas weapons are supported by Iran.



Saying it is their "only option" is just silly. When Palestine had their first election in 10 years and Hamas won almost all world countries (excluding Iran) and the UN  said that if Hamas and their government should be recognised they need to 1. put down their guns, 2. recognise Israel as a state. Hamas did neither and thus the monetary aid to Palestine have stopped. This means of course that the Palestinian people will suffer because of Hamas. It is not a huge surprise that we are here today. Hamas is a greater threat to the Palestinians than Israel.

The rockets created by Iran and given to the Palestinians are very crude. They point and shoot, not real targeting. They come down over an area (like a city) and sometimes hit something. When they're picked up on radar air-raid alarms go off and people on the boarder generally go into their shelters (which is why there are few injuries).
The weapons given to Israel by America are fighter jets and helicopter gun ships, cruise missiles etc. They target a densely populated area where they suspect a terrorist of living/the hamas HQ/etc and there are many casualties. Even if Israel were just retaliating they're escalating violence to a whole other level.

As for putting down their weapons and recognising Israel as a state. They did neither obviously. Which has lead to this situation. They however are not alone. I googled this list of other countries which don't recognise Israel:

"Algeria, Chad, Comoros, Djibouti, Guinea, Libya, Mali, Morocco, Niger, Somalia, Sudan, Tunisia, The Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic of Western Sahara (in exile,) Cuba, Republic of China (Taiwan), North Korea, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Maldives, Pakistan, Brunei, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, United Arab Emirates and Yemen"


Sad thing is both sides have had long enough to work things out, obviously neither side will get exactly what they want (the land that the other guy occupies). There must be a more peaceful solution though.

[Jabbs]

To me it seems that this area of the world will always been in a state of conflict while people continue to disregard human life

:withstupid:

[delanvital]

I think this article pretty much nails the present short-term situation

[T-Bag]

I think this article pretty much nails the present short-term situation

That's bang on. You can't cut off all supplies to a country and expect them to be happy. Nor can you launch rockets in to a country when there is an election on the way and expect the other side not to take swift action.
Unfortunately Obama has already missed the chance to call a cease fire before things got messy, (as president-elect his voice carries a lot of power - especially with Israel which depends so heavily on America's support).
Official International calls for a cease fire will likely take over a week now. I believe Russia is usually the one to call them on it.
I just hope the current 3 hour window each day is a sign they are going to stop targeting civillians seeking aid and shelter and that civilian and children casualties will start to decrease sharply.

[Hektor]

1. Egypt (along with most other countries, but let's focus on an Arab coutry) thinks Israel is right and that Hamas is the assaulting party here. I can't recall even a single time in which Egypt has supported Israel against a Palestinian faction.

Mr Mubarak is a dictator. he ruled the country with violence, already since 30 years. He always get 99% of the votes but all the people hate him. when he die, his son will become the next despot.
when you say anything against him, you go to prison or you disapear forever.
mubaraks actions are never compatible with the people opinion. no one demonstrate or talk about politics. they are all afraid of this tyrant.

so normally we should send forces to egypt to free the people here. but he is accepted by us, the european countrys, because he is our lapdog. every year they send him many billion dollars to steady him. america support this terroristic system. they dont care what happens here, as long as mubarak do what they want him to.
to your quote: maybe mubarak is on israels side, but 90% of the egyptians have a different belief.
unfortunately its the same situation in every arabic country nowadays- stupid, selfish and violent dictators who are doing everything in contradiction with what the people want.
why is egypt so important for america? because egypt (nasser and sadat) was the main force in the wars. they united the arabic countrys back in 67 or 73. without the egyptian leadership, the arabic countrys were (are) unable to react.

im afraid this will change in the next years.
the people are afraid, but theyre ready to unite for a revolution. maybe they only need a strong leader. and this, regarding to israel will maybe lead to a total destruction of both sides.
1973 henry kissinger came here to talk to the arabic leaders because of the oil crisis. they met with him in a tent, not a palace or a government building and told him that they can live like this again. living in a tent, eating bred and beens, riding on a donkey. they lived like this before they became rich from the oil, and they can live like this again.
grim determination on one side uncompliableness and a-bombs on the other.
this is only the beginning...