Raiding Eligibility Questions

[walrob]

Seriously Rob, I used one of three names given in the post.  If it offends then I apologise and offer to change your forum name to one you like.  If it was the abbreviation of it then colour me sad, I tend to shorten names for ease (many people do) and no offence was meant.

You asked the hardcore/social question and I answered it immediately.  However you cannot define what social raiding is, so the question is one that you can only answer by saying we raid for progress, socially and with limited raid time compared to some other guilds.  DMR does not need to make a formal declaration as to what we are, we have public statements on this site already as to what we are established to achieve already.  

You suggest that we have 5 members who find themselves unable to trust any officer in the guild sufficiently to feel comfortable speaking to them about a problem they have.    No member would want to stay in the guild if that were really the case, they would leave to find an environment within which they had trust.  OTOH, if they have respect for the guild and its members then might wish to go talk to an officer about an in-guild problem to see if it can be fixed.  Members should always feel happy to speak to officers about any problems they have within the guild, the whole dMw community is built on that basis.

Remaining silent, hidden and only having potential complaints aired through a third-party when no detail is provided or substantiated is pretty pointless, it's just muck-throwing.  Anyone can throw muck, but I simply do not believe that a member could not find sufficient trust in any single officer to talk to them.  If they really feel that way then they should consider their position as DMR cannot implant ESP into its officers to solve problems about which we have no detail.  


The guild membership standards are pretty clear here, hence my suggestion to talk to an officer and provide some details.  So in answer to your question, yes it does apply to all guild members equally, including the ones who have not spoken to you or any officer.  Rocking the boat is trying to deal with it in public initially rather than privately as requested by these standards.  If you are unhappy with the word 'force' then I withdraw it, but I felt it described the way avoidance of a private discussion required officer input in a public thread.  Of course this does not stifle discussion, but if every problem was dealt with in public all the time then the world would be a pretty negative & depressing place.  Why upset people when you can deal with things privately?

Some of my frustration with your responses is down to the fact that you say you were not sure who was responsible for what.  Surely a whisper to an officer to ask a question is an easier route?  I am amazed that a guild member is unable to figure out that an officer is a good place to start for such information and I did give you that same information in the post before Whitey's reply which you referred to and thanked.  There is almost always an officer in-game too, so the opportunity to ask a question is almost endless, so that's why I might have appeared a little sarchastic given your skipping of some (in my opinion) basic information.

If you feel slighted, then you have had an apology from me, but at least you now know the correct way to deal with such problems.

I would like to begin by stating that this post is my opinion only. No inference should be made that this is in any way definitive or absolute truth, although it is based upon facts as I see them. See my other post which includes my philosophy on the nature, and perception, of truth.

TL - in my opinion, you seem to have made this personal. By airing personal attacks against me in this forum, you have contradicted your own point about initially confining individual issues to discussion with that person. While I would not normally respond in kind, I feel obliged to in this instance.

No offence was taken by which name you used. I simply requested that you use either my given name or main character name (or abbreviation thereof).

You clearly do not understand the thrust of my case.

There is no clear definition of Social, Hardcore, etc.; thatââ,¬â,,¢s the point!

Each ââ,¬Ëœcategoryââ,¬â,,¢ is subjective within a broad spectrum. I sought, and still seek, the opinions of others as to how they viewed the direction of the Guild, not a definitive directive from the Guild itself, although that is useful. There is no firm definition, just opinion; I do not understand why you have a problem with this relatively simple concept, or why you continue to argue around it.

Given that this is seeking the opinion of the wider Guild members, this is exactly the place to do so, as opposed to whispering or PMing everyone. If you do know of a more efficient, but equally transparent, method of communication than debating in this forum, I would be only too pleased to listen to your suggestion.

People confiding in me is not a matter of ââ,¬Ëœtrustingââ,¬â,,¢ officers, nor lack of respect for the Guild.

It is divisive, presumptuous, and arrogant to suggest otherwise. I suggest that, your comment is highly insensitive and indicative of the contempt that you apparently have towards fellow dMr members.

Again you have not grasped the concept of what I am attempting to convey. Indeed, I would go as far as to say that, given you are clearly in possession of a reasonable intellect, that this is a deliberate manipulation of my intent; an attempt to discredit (rather than counter) my reasoning and to further your own argument. It is not constructive.

On a personal note, I would like to state here that I feel that the Guild is, in general, well run by dedicated people and that most people are happy to help each other where they can.

All those I have spoken to (and more importantly, listened to) in the wider dMr community (whatever their stance on this issue) are generally happy with the other members of dMr including the Guild Officers and Class Leaders, but some have reservations on this particular occasion, on a specific issue.

Different personalities have different ways of expressing themselves; each to their own. Some may not be able to express themselves to convey their thoughts in an eloquent fashion. Some may be shy. However it is more likely that, as I expressed previously, once something is in place, most would rather express discontent among their friends than risk publicly speaking out. It is human nature to want to conform; this behaviour can be found in all spheres of society, such as the workplace, school, or other societies and organisations. Have you not experienced this among others in your sphere of friends and associates? Never grumbled about your boss (or had subordinates grumble about you)?

The premise is simple: When peoplesââ,¬â,,¢ expectations are not met, it results in discontent. It can be argued that change management is an art in itself.

Again you return to how this debate is conducted so feel obliged to repeat myself. Given that this is a Guild-wide issue (note, not ââ,¬Ëœproblemââ,¬â,,¢), individuals speaking to individual officers is wholly inefficient and by its very nature, secretive. Do you not think that the matter of finding a resolution to Guild-wide issues is best conducted in an open forum, where all can freely lend their opinion? These ââ,¬Ëœgrowing painsââ,¬â,,¢ affect everyone, so why do you stubbornly and repeatedly object to public discussion?

TL wrote:

ââ,¬Å"Remaining silent, hidden and only having potential complaints aired through a third-party when no detail is provided or substantiated is pretty pointless, it's just muck-throwing. ââ,¬Å"

How dare you! I strongly object to your inference that this is a fabrication or it is to further my own personal agenda or sew dissent. It is sad that you stoop to such depths. I suggest that you utilise this ploy as you are unable to further your own argument in a constructive manner. Indeed I see nothing new or constructive in your post. Simple repetition does not add verisimilitude to your clearly personal issues with me, nor your apparent desire to stifle debate.

As clearly stated in my original post, I seek clarification and information. Looking back at previous posts in this thread, it is clear that it was you who was mainly responsible for perverting this debate out of all proportion, far exceeding the original intent.

Again you refer to private discussion by quoting from dMr guidelines. Where an individual has an issue which pertains to him or her exclusively, I agree that one-on-one consultation is most appropriate. I donââ,¬â,,¢t know how to say this any differently, so I will repeat it yet again:

This is a Guild-wide issue that affects all members of dMr who wish to raid. Use of a forum which is accessible to all members of dMr is the ideal place to air such issues.

I still do not understand your desire to stifle (what was initially) a constructive and healthy debate and  request for information, which is potentially of interest to all. Nor can I fathom your inability to grasp this concept, or why you object to it.

If I may be so presumptuousââ,¬Â¦

As I understand it, people are unhappy that the previous raiding arrangements have been changed without adequate communication or consultation. How much more detail do you feel this discussion warrants?

Why are you frustrated with my lack of knowledge? I requested information so I did know who to go to; again as expressed in a previous post.

I cannot contact someone about who I should contact when I donââ,¬â,,¢t know who to contact. This is another simple concept which you seem unable to grasp.

Yes the guild membership standards are clear in the passage that you quoted. ââ,¬Å"If anyone has a problem with a Guild member then the first thing you should do is talk to that memberââ,¬Â¦Ã¢â,¬Â

In this case, no individual has a problem with any other individual. It is some of the Guild raiders who are disgruntled with the way raiding is currently being conducted, which has subsequently been constructively covered by others. This is not an individual issue but a Guild-wide issue which is best served by a Guild-wide debate.

I did thank Whitey for providing useful information and am grateful to all who contributed constructively to the debate. As this debate was already in a public forum, why would I then contact an officer when the issues had been covered and the information that I requested had been made available? To what end? How would that benefit anyone? I now continue this debate only to reply to those who have constructively furthered the issue (as is polite) and to defend myself against a personal attack.

In short, you have contradicted yourself by expressing personal issues in a public forum while conveying little or no information and not furthering the debate in a constructive manner. I see nothing but repetition, a desire to stifle debate, and a personal attack in your post.

If you have a shred of decency, please make an unreserved apology, without caveats, for this personal attack and inferred slight as to the nature of the integrity of members of the wider dMr community. (Apologies for the tautology; I feel it necessary for emphasis). I welcome constructive criticism and helpful suggestions levelled at me, as I have made suggestions in an attempt to ameliorate the current issue in an earlier post. However, I find this unwarranted attack to be unacceptable.

In future, please refrain from personal attacks (either in a public forum or privately), on myself or any other member of dMr or the wider dMw community, as you have done here and (as I have recently found out) have done in the past.

Robert
Aka Treekin

[TeaLeaf]

I think you need to re-read the thread and your own comments as I have not attacked you or made this personal, I simply responded to your post, provided information (for which I was not thanked) and explained why I felt my points were still valid and why a different route was sought.  There is nothing personal in the thread until you made such comments.  

Your 'case' is at best ill-defined & unclear, at worst a non-entity.  This is not a court Walrob, this is a forum and a guild with procedures. Take a specific to an officer please if you have a problem.

I re-state my point, if anyone feels unable to speak to any single officer about a problem then you are in the wrong guild and you should know how to solve that problem.  The vast bulk of the members are happy here and nobody has gquit and nobody has made any comments to officers other than you in this forum Walrob.    

You have written a lot and I am not going to bother to reply further to it Walrob.  You took simple answers and then tried to say you were on a crusade or making a 'case' for an anonymous group of people.  If you have a problem talk to the officers about it first as per the rules.

If you need information ask an officer.
If you are not sure who is an officer please look at the guild list.
If you have a problem, talk to an officer about it.

I am now instructing you to take this to a PM or a discussion with an officer as you have ignored the polite request several times now and I do not wish this to develop into a flame war.  Please do not ignore this final request.

[Whitey]

I'd just like to give my answer to a question that has been mentioned at least a couple of times in this thread.

Are we "Social" or "Hard Core"?

My answer is that we are a "social, raiding guild" and not a "social raiding guild".  I'm sure the majority of the people raiding in DMR want to see the new content before the next expansion and in order to do that we need a strong raiding group to make progress.  I wouldn't call us "Hard Core" as hard core guilds raid 5 or 6 nights a week for 4 or 5 hours at a time but it is serious raiding.

[Penfold]

OK having read this with my moderator hat on enough is enough.

  Walrob, take a step back and breathe in deeply, several times. Whilst I know nothing about the world of pixies in which you reside, this thread has evolved from a couple of simple questions into a diatribe.  

  By the tenor of your posts I can see youââ,¬â,,¢re bristling and I can see youââ,¬â,,¢re upset but youââ,¬â,,¢ve stepped over the mark of acceptable posting. Your recent posts make it patently obvious that youââ,¬â,,¢re spoiling for an argument.

  You bandy words around like patronising and antagonistic but please, look at your post from 1.32pm ...... it fits those adjectives perfectly. You seem to have overlooked the fact that he apologises to you for any offence caused but ironically you find that, in itself, offensive.

You have the answers you were seeking namely:

 

I canââ,¬â,,¢t seem to find info on:

- How many officers are there, who are they, and what is their function?
- How many Class Leaders are there, who are they, and what is their function?

Is there a list somewhere, maybe on this website (link please)? If not can one be created please?

A list of Community Admins can be found here.
A list of Game Admins can be found here.
Whitey has answered your question on the raid criteria.

  If you have a problem then please, as repeatedly mentioned above, talk to an officer.  

As far as Iââ,¬â,,¢m concerned you have your answer and have an avenue for airing future discontent. You yourself say that you'll use the forum for post topics of general interest. Fine, no one has a problem with that. What I do have a problem about is you, or anyone else, using it as a platform for a rant.

[walrob]

OK having read this with my moderator hat on enough is enough.

  Walrob, take a step back and breathe in deeply, several times. Whilst I know nothing about the world of pixies in which you reside, this thread has evolved from a couple of simple questions into a diatribe.  

  By the tenor of your posts I can see youââ,¬â,,¢re bristling and I can see youââ,¬â,,¢re upset but youââ,¬â,,¢ve stepped over the mark of acceptable posting. Your recent posts make it patently obvious that youââ,¬â,,¢re spoiling for an argument.

  You bandy words around like patronising and antagonistic but please, look at your post from 1.32pm ...... it fits those adjectives perfectly. You seem to have overlooked the fact that he apologises to you for any offence caused but ironically you find that, in itself, offensive.

You have the answers you were seeking namely:

 
A list of Community Admins can be found here:  
A list of Game Admins can be found here:
Whitey has answered your question on the raid criteria.

  If you have a problem then, as repeatedly been mentioned above, talk to an officer.  

As far as Iââ,¬â,,¢m concerned you have your answer and have an avenue for airing future discontent. You yourself say that you'll use the forum for post topics of general interest. Fine, no one has a problem with that. What I do have a problem about is you, or anyone else, using it as a platform for a rant.

Thank you for your intervention. However, I feel it uneven and one-sided. Lets start with "world of pixies"? How derogatory!

To make several inflamatory comments and then apologise at the end in no regard counters the comments in the same post.

I am in no way spoinilng for an arguement, neither am I bristling. I am merely defending myself in kind. If treated with respect I treat people with respect, as I have shown in previous posts. If disrespected, I defend myself with vigour. Am I not entitled to do so?

If I am slated in a public forum, I expect the right of reply, or does this not pertain to this forum?

My reply to TL's latest attack has been written. If you believe in equality and the right of reply I request that you allow me to post it. If you find equality and right of reply objectionable, then feel free to do what you must.

I would much rather spend my time playing WoW rather than defending myself against those who describe issues with disgruntled Guild members as a 'non-entity'.

Robert
aka Treekin

[Mezzanine]

All right, I'm not playing WoW anymore and I suppose that makes my opinion count less, but I do have enough experience of both the game, guild politics (as class leader as well as officer, mind you) and forum policies to value transparency. Serioiusly, I haven't been able to *not* follow this thread...

Are DMR members only allowed to write about candy floss and rose petals on the forum and anything else has to be discussed in private with officers?

I understand this thread has become somewhat of a personal vendetta between two people, but it wasn't its original purpose. It was initiated politely and with no foul language or accusations. Sure, it wasn't about sunshine and pretty hedgehogs, but it was not even close to offensive.

For what it's worth, Robert, you have my fullest support and sympathy when it comes to honest questions and open discussions, as long as they're sensible, and I really think that's how it all started out. I'm really sorry they're trying to censor you. Now, this is not my fight, but man, I have to take a stand for freedom of speech in general.

Nina
a.k.a. ... Nina

[Penfold]

Thank you for your intervention. However, I feel it uneven and one-sided. Lets start with "world of pixies"? How derogatory!

Oh boy.....

Derogatory? I don't think so when it's a phrase coined by our very own pixie-meisters :flirty::

welcome fellow pixies

... I DO decide to return to the world of pixies and fairies, this is obviously the place to go. Where do I sign? :narnar:

........  Sorry Ron for introducing pixies to DMR :tongue:

welcome pixies elves and kindred spirits:dmw:

I just think DuVel fears us pixies :norty:

(And any one of numerous others). It's an in-house thing but please, by all means, feel free to take offence at it if you so wish. :wink:

You asked for your right to reply and I think you've made your point........

Nina, it's not about censorship - far from it. I've never played WoW (although I would have loved to) and it's not about WoW, it's about stopping the 'personal vendetta' as you call it. So long as things are kept impersonal and generic then happy days. This hasn't, it's degenerated into pointless mud-slinging. I didn't make the rules about going via your class leader - that's a DMR thing.

Robert asked a question, the question has been answered. The rest kinda went downhill.

I have no idea about the vagaries of WoW and how raids are formed or who does what. That's not my job. My job is to keep the forum tidy and on track in line with our Membership Standards and AUP.

Oh, and I also help organise the LANs .... so if any of you pixies feel you can drag yourselves off Aszune then you'll be most welcome to mix with us petrolheads and soldierboys. Hell, I'll even buy the first round* (*while stocks last )

[Jim]

Right, i've sat here long enough in a neutral place looking at this topic trying not to pick sides, altough people know what side i'd be on right?

Can we please for the love of all that is holy

LOCK THE THREAD AND MOVE ON

And yes, Caps makes it true

[Mezzanine]

Walrob, take a step back and breathe in deeply, several times.

Nina, it's not about censorship - far from it. I've never played WoW (although I would have loved to) and it's not about WoW, it's about stopping the 'personal vendetta' as you call it. So long as things are kept impersonal and generic then happy days. This hasn't, it's degenerated into pointless mud-slinging.

Maybe you should make direct your request to both parts then and not make it one-sided. Otherwise it may well be understood as just that - censorship.

Jim, the solution is rarely to silence the lambs... perhaps control them, but not silence them.

[DannagE]

PICTURE UNRELATED..



:narnar:

[JonnyAppleSeed]

I followed this and im happy with the topic and questions asked.. I'm not so happy with the tone of it just not enough smileys for my taste

The ethos behind us is to make things as fair as possible and the officers in my eyes do this very well. It's not perfect keeping all people happy all the time is never going to happen tho we get darn close

So... if you have a problem and nobody else can help call the A Team ... or failing that im always about to point people in the right direction

So we WILL keep the forums clean and constructive and on topic DannagE

[DannagE]

Just trying to lighten the mood in here abit JAS, seems to be alot of gloom in here

Plus im at work bored senseless!

[walrob]

I followed this and im happy with the topic and questions asked.. I'm not so happy with the tone of it just not enough smileys for my taste

The ethos behind us is to make things as fair as possible and the officers in my eyes do this very well. It's not perfect keeping all people happy all the time is never going to happen tho we get darn close

So... if you have a problem and nobody else can help call the A Team ... or failing that im always about to point people in the right direction

So we WILL keep the forums clean and constructive and on topic DannagE

Thanks Jas for your input.

I always maintain to keep it clean. However, when attacked so veheremently, I will always mount a vigourous defence, as is my right. No vulgar slang, no unfounded accusations, only defence with my opinion and facts as I see them.

As an adult, no one has the right to to speak to me in such a manner as TL did initially and his  subsequent reply was even worse. I strongly object to censorship of any kind as has clearly happened here.

As ridiculous as I feel this is, I (publicly) and formally make a request to both you (Jas) and our Chief Mod to allow me to reply to what is (by any definition) a highly inflamatory post by TL - a supposedly Senoir Officer in dMw. In the spirit of fairness, I would like the right of reply.

Please would you post an umambiguous reply as to whether I am permitted a right of reply or I am to be censored.

I await your decision with great anticipation.

Robert
aka Treekin

[walrob]

Re: PICTURE UNRELATED..

Love it :-)

Robert
aka Treekin

[Penfold]

I've been told that my reply is one-sided. Sorry, not intentional if that's the way it's viewed.

Perhaps I'm being overly obtuse but I see a thread which is ok (although slightly acerbic at times) until 10.11pm last night when it starts to goes downhill. It then goes really downhill today.

Anyway, I stepped in when I thought this thread had run its course and had just degenerated into a pointless verbal battle. That's my call. Was I one-sided? who knows... however, imo, I called the main protagonist as I saw it.

Either way, if it helps to balance things out then I'll make it clear that I'm telling everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) to henceforth and forthwith (heh, it's catching),  keep threads generic and not personal be it TL, Rob, or anyone else.  

I'll leave it to JAS to reply to you as I don't want to impinge on his turf more than I have already and besides I have to go to hospital tomorrow for an operation so may not be around for a bit (or permanently if it goes tits up).

PEN

PS. If nothing else this thread is a great display of word-smithery on both sides and should either of you require copy-writing jobs then please let me know.... we could use you. Hell, I've got a degree in English and Classical Studies (including Latin and Greek) and have worked in Press Communications for 15 years and even I'm struggling with some of the language.................:flirty: :worship:

PPS. Is calling WoW'ers 'pixies' really derogatory? I'm actually really interested to know. If only they could find a way to put inflections on the written word eh - would save an awful lot of grief.