Bounds

smilodon · October 10, 2012, 04:47:57 PM

A long time ago in an attempt to make CS more of a tactical thinking game rather than a run about on your own frag hunt we adopted map boundaries. They were carefully chosen to try to make the game more team based and tactical. The community really took to them as they were simple to explain and significantly improved the quality of the game. Now CS was about planning defensive strategies, good communication and coordinated attacks. It wasn't about lone gunmen shooting the other team in the back. Terrorist's tried to plant bombs, Counter Terrorist's tried to rescue hostages and no one tried to just up their personal kill quota.

Over time we refined the map boundaries and as the community really began to understand the style of play we were seeking those boundaries became guidelines rather than rules. Still it was very rare for anyone to move any distance beyond them.

No game is perfect and no way of playing is perfect. But over the years we've learnt that the way for most of our community to get the best game possible is to play Tactical Counter Strike with map boundaries as firm guidelines. Without them the game suffers and we all have a poorer experience. CS isn't a role play game, we don't have to make it really life, just fun. This whole community was born from the way we played CS, and while we're always keen to discuss and refine how we play I don't think we're going to drop the basic premise of TCS. It's in our DNA

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faust82 · October 10, 2012, 06:01:59 PM

I agree with Chaosphere completely.
I will respect the boundaries as long as they're part of the dMw ruleset, but I will say I'm in strong disagreement with several of the placements (As they prohibit the use of several natural choke points DELIBERATELY DESIGNED into the maps).
Another issue I think are some of the more rabid enforcers of the boundaries. You'd think from their reaction you were slowly torturing cute animals and posting it on youtube.
Yes, if you know the person has been playing CS with dMw for years, you can expect that person to know about them. Still no reason not to be polite though.
These boundaries are rarely, if ever, found in the wild. No gaming community I've ever played with before has had them. Before the new maps got posted, I googled the heck out of both boundaries an TCS, and all I found were 5+ year old posts linking to long dead threads on the dMw forums. Thanks to Ducky for remaking the maps so we can finally understand what everyone is on about.

I do enjoy playing with you guys a lot, yesterday was especially fun, and as I said I will respect the boundaries and the way you guys like to play. Keep in mind though that the dMw creed applies not only to gaming style, it also covers general behaviour. Certain players are not exactly living up to the standards or their presumed status as adults with their intermittent tantrums.

gromit83 · October 10, 2012, 06:49:56 PM

I put my 0,02 dollars on Chaos.

Deadmen har for older casual gamers. Using TCS rules arent exactly casual. Make 2 servers. 1 for Ducky, Kreg and Duvel and one for the rest of us.

faust82 · October 10, 2012, 06:53:42 PM

Chaos for president!

faust82 · October 10, 2012, 07:09:14 PM

Er.. Gromit, Ducky == Kregoron

Also, dMw is for all sorts of gamers, both casual and hardcore.
I do agree there needs to be some rule changes though. TCS is all in the spirit of balance and a level playing field, so how about we restrict our danish and dutch friends to grenades and knives only?

Doorman · October 10, 2012, 08:51:46 PM

I've been spending the last couple of years playing CoD WaW on a well admined(?) crouch server. Suits me because the pace of play is 'sneaky peaky like' and a smidge more realistic. Like ArmA for half wits. CS:GO is great fun and I'm leaning towards the elastic boundaries side. Where it all can go wrong is when frag hunting gets out of hand. "I'll go on my own and create a diversion" = "I'm off to score some kills". Discipline is the key to team work and one must really have the team's interests at heart.
Ducky? What to do about him? Actually, I've watched him ...a lot! He's the sort of player that, being the last man (T) standing, has retrieved the bomb, planted it, then set about eliminating the enemy when they come back from exploring the map! A joy to watch.
Pet hate? Strafing. Stand still and shoot for crissakes!

Blunt · October 10, 2012, 09:20:10 PM

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faust82 · October 10, 2012, 09:45:59 PM

Not only the cats, I do too.
Doorman: the problem with Ducky is just that he's so bloody good, and his entire playing style is pure excellence. No lone-ranger fraghunting, just stayign on target and killing everything that remotely looks like it might move

If I join the server and see Ducky and Duvel on the same side, I know it's going to suck something horrible to be on the other

Chaosphere · October 10, 2012, 10:23:29 PM

Quote from: smilodon;359710Now CS was about planning defensive strategies, good communication and coordinated attacks. It wasn't about lone gunmen shooting the other team in the back. Terrorist's tried to plant bombs, Counter Terrorist's tried to rescue hostages and no one tried to just up their personal kill quota.

My point was that why can't we have this, without boundaries? Just have the rules clearly saying that team play is key. The game stays tactical, but with no 'oh wait no I'm not allowed to flank them guys there is an invisible wall in my way'. Aren't we all sensible enough to play in the way you describe, but with a little more freedom to be a little more sneaky?

And I for one like playing against the likes of Duvel. Yeah, he is very good, but that just makes it a challenge. I'm very quickly learning CS is one of those insanity things where I just have to keep bashing my head against the wall until eventually I make a crack in it.

Blunt · October 10, 2012, 10:39:07 PM

Quote from: Chaosphere;359747My point was that why can't we have this, without boundaries? Just have the rules clearly saying that team play is key. The game stays tactical, but with no 'oh wait no I'm not allowed to flank them guys there is an invisible wall in my way'. Aren't we all sensible enough to play in the way you describe, but with a little more freedom to be a little more sneaky?

And I for one like playing against the likes of Duvel. Yeah, he is very good, but that just makes it a challenge. I'm very quickly learning CS is one of those insanity things where I just have to keep bashing my head against the wall until eventually I make a crack in it.

All well and good on our PW'd private server, but imagine trying to herd the cats that come when you've got a public server.
The TCS boundaries were in place to ensure that everyone, including pubbies, stuck to the ethos of "Doing the objective"
We managed to herd quite a few cats that way. Indeed many of them are still here.
b00n made a mod that allowed you over the boundary for a few seconds before you got auto-killed (a bit like no-mans-land in BF3).
And Whitey somehow managed to put no-entry signs on all our maps to indicate the bounds.
both these methods (plus the guiding hands of the admin team) managed to keep the pubbies in line, and keep them coming back for the gameplay.
So we know that the bounds do work.

But, like doorman, I'm not sure we need to be quite so rigid on our private server.

kregoron · October 11, 2012, 12:08:28 AM

Quote from: Doorman;359733I've been spending the last couple of years playing CoD WaW on a well admined(?) crouch server. Suits me because the pace of play is 'sneaky peaky like' and a smidge more realistic. Like ArmA for half wits. CS:GO is great fun and I'm leaning towards the elastic boundaries side. Where it all can go wrong is when frag hunting gets out of hand. "I'll go on my own and create a diversion" = "I'm off to score some kills". Discipline is the key to team work and one must really have the team's interests at heart.
Ducky? What to do about him? Actually, I've watched him ...a lot! He's the sort of player that, being the last man (T) standing, has retrieved the bomb, planted it, then set about eliminating the enemy when they come back from exploring the map! A joy to watch.
Pet hate? Strafing. Stand still and shoot for crissakes!

If you really watched, i can always see the planted bomb when planted it. If you expect me to stand still in the middle of bomb site waiting for ct's to come, think again, that wouldnt be very tactical, now would it.
Yes i strafe between shots, nothing new in that, everyone does it.. Not really sure what ive done to make you angry

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DuVeL · October 11, 2012, 12:20:37 AM

Quote from: faust82;359741If I join the server and see Ducky and Duvel on the same side, I know it's going to suck something horrible to be on the other

It depends. Another old TCS rule which Toby applied previous night did was that if one side is overpowering the other side, first to get killed has to swap. Actually Toby was above me and Ducky at the time on the scoreboard. He got killed and swapped to even the teams. Kudos to BrotherTobius!

BTW: Me and Ducky have played CS over and over as have some older dMw members. I have been in the competition league for it also as have been several dMw'ers. If you guys think off all the old tactics we had, they're fun!
I even ran into one at Dust2 while defending short/middle A, Benny and consorts were sneaking up on it.
Also don't forget the shottyround or the pick them off I called in a few times depending on the maps.

kregoron · October 11, 2012, 12:20:43 AM

Quote from: Blunt;359750All well and good on our PW'd private server, but imagine trying to herd the cats that come when you've got a public server.
The TCS boundaries were in place to ensure that everyone, including pubbies, stuck to the ethos of "Doing the objective"
We managed to herd quite a few cats that way. Indeed many of them are still here.
b00n made a mod that allowed you over the boundary for a few seconds before you got auto-killed (a bit like no-mans-land in BF3).
And Whitey somehow managed to put no-entry signs on all our maps to indicate the bounds.
both these methods (plus the guiding hands of the admin team) managed to keep the pubbies in line, and keep them coming back for the gameplay.
So we know that the bounds do work.

But, like doorman, I'm not sure we need to be quite so rigid on our private server.

Spot on, i have nothing agaisnt loose bounds on priv servers.. But as we start getting pubbies on, the loose bounds become a problem...
People will keep pushing the bounds, and with a null tolerence bounds isnt easier to keep it clean..

The bounds are positioned so they use the map layout and psysical features.. Makes it easier to know where the limit is.
Certain bounds can seem like choke points, but their well tested, and a good tactical team plans their attack and usually handles with it quite easy..

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b00n · October 11, 2012, 12:29:22 AM

Quote from: Chaosphere;359747My point was that why can't we have this, without boundaries? Just have the rules clearly saying that team play is key. The game stays tactical, but with no 'oh wait no I'm not allowed to flank them guys there is an invisible wall in my way'. Aren't we all sensible enough to play in the way you describe, but with a little more freedom to be a little more sneaky?

The problem as Doorman rightly pointed out is that 'being sneaky' is pretty much indistinguishable from going off to hunt frags. However I agree that the rules can simply be 'enforce teamplay' without boundaries. The problem I see is that we can't have the 'kinda, maybe, sometimes' approach to boundaries we seem to have at the moment - we either need to have them or not. I can almost guarantee that if someone bit your head off, it wasn't because you went over a boundary or because you broke a rule, it was because that person was killed because they were playing to set of rules that they assumed everyone else was also adhering to. It needs to be clear for everyone exactly what rules are being enforced.

I don't think 'elastic' boundaries will work for the same reason, if you give people an inch then soon it'll be a yard, then two, then five, and shortly you find you're needing to enforce the boundaries of how far the boundaries can be stretched. I'm fine with not having boundaries - it just needs a decision to be made and clarified for all.

Maybe we should reopen a public server on a friday night to demostrate for those new to CS why TCS rules exist? :norty:

DuVeL · October 11, 2012, 12:36:45 AM

b00n, On the train map, after lots of people were gone me and a few OldSchool CS-admins were checking the map and we concluded that while defending as CT on the right behind the sandbags is allowed as long as you don't go around the corner to watch into T-spawn. It might have been an "elastic" boundary but as said, I thought this would be alot within proper TCS.