HEROIC - Feng - DEFEATED 12/02/13

[Michelanio]

And by the way: Switching at 2 stacks goes for all phases, are tanks currently doing this or going for 3? Would this make hots more useful, overhealing go down and generally ease the job for the healers?

On different note;
Whytee/Hal - Sacred Shield (lvl45 talent) healing seems to be pretty insane for some tanks, this is an example of a Prot Paladin with it up;

With regards to the stacks we always try and swap at 2 stacks and I think that the time I said I had 3 stacks it had just came on a few secs before and that is within the marging that they overlap and also noticing how many stacks the other tank got (we do have things to do as well )

I acually do have sacred shield in my spec and trying to keep it up every time I'm tanking but again we are but human whitey do runs with eternal flame that gives him a instant heal and a hot that tics on him for 30 seconds so we have chosen to go with 2 different specs that works for us

[Slush]

I acually do have sacred shield in my spec and trying to keep it up every time I'm tanking but again we are but human

Sounds good. But I guess I didnt phrase myself correctly; Your self-heals are far below what other paladin tanks are capable doing. Our healers numbers shows they are equal to what other guilds are doing.. Random logs:
  http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/3pm0xbmknoz0h5cd/sum/healingDone/?s=5863&e=6408
  http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/zpisveehhb2l92ze/sum/healingDone/?s=3517&e=4061

Saying other tank pairs are capable of doing 25% of total healing does not equal Hal+Whytee should do the same, as you have several other assignments in this fight. Maybe your current specs are not optimal for this fight? If you get self heals up to 18-20%, that would save alot of healers mana throughout the fight. Maybe its not doable. I always feel the need to check logs after a night like yesterday.

But then again... maybe it is optimal? Tanks dps is really good. And we dont want to see that one drop

Update
Logs for when tanks had 3 stacks of the bad buffs
There might be many reasons for this; wipe, tank deaths and so on..

[Whitey]

The issue with self healing for me is that the heal I get is huge (can be 70% of my health pool) and I don't want to use it to overheal or just top myself up (it takes a while to build 5  stacks) and so I save it for when my health is low.  That doesn't happen very often in this fight.  If the healers want to leave me on half health then I can use my big heal every time I get 5 stacks or I could shout not to heal me for a few seconds when it's available but neither seems appealing with everything else we're doing in this fight.

[Whitey]

Logs for when tanks had 3 stacks of the bad buffs
There might be many reasons for this; wipe, tank deaths and so on..

I think that's a pretty good job.  There's not a lot of time between the 2 stacks dropping off and the next taunt so the fact we only reached 3 stacks on those occasions with all the stuff we have to manage during the fight is a good result in my book


Time to start looking at the logs for Slush :devil:

[Slush]

The issue with self healing for me is that the heal I get is huge (can be 70% of my health pool) and I don't want to use it to overheal or just top myself up

Should you then use Eternal Flame at all for this fight? Or would Sacred Shield + Glyph of Avenging Wrath be a more viable options? Glyph of Holy Wrath (as you currently have is no good vs humanoids(adds).

I dont know enough about Protadins, but in this fight: absorb > Hot? Please arrest me if Im wrong, but I just see so high self-heal numbers from other Protadins using Sacred Shield.

I think that's a pretty good job. There's not a lot of time between the 2 stacks dropping off and the next taunt so the fact we only reached 3 stacks on those occasions with all the stuff we have to manage during the fight is a good result in my book

Good to hear. I just wanted to bring focus on it. My mission is accompished.
Raidleader asked: "so we need to figure out where we are going wrong as insufficient mana means either inefficient healing, the dps being way too slow, or the raid taking to much unavoidable damage".
I try to find answers. Your input is appreciated aswell. Why dont you ask why Slush isnt putting down Healing Stream Totem more? Why did I go for Ancestral Guidance instead of Heaing Tide Totem?

Time to start looking at the logs for Slush

Please do. All tips are appreciated. Saying stuff like that make it looks like im the only one (except TL) bothering to go through logs...

[Whitey]

I do like having the big heal of Eternal Flame as it's saved me so many times but I'll make the changes and see how it works out.  I'm sure you realise (in the example you linked) that you are comparing us with a pally with the 4 set bonus and a much higher iLevel.




p.s. I do think your last comment was uncalled for Slush as I was joking hence the :devil:.  There are a number of raiders who I know look through the logs, me included, the fact you decided to focus on this one encounter/night doesn't mean the rest of us don't bother. :sideways:

[Slush]

I do like having the big heal of Eternal Flame as it's saved me so many times but I'll make the changes and see how it works out.  I'm sure you realise (in the example you linked) that you are comparing us with a pally with the 4 set bonus and a much higher iLevel.

I did not dig that deep, no. You know ALOT more about protection paladins than I do. 6 ilvls and set bonus probably does alot here. You've been main tank for ages and know your class very well. Its quite possible this doesnt appeal to your playstyle either. You/TL mentioned yesterday on TS a Str+Haste heavy spec, and I just think... wooosh.. you are past my point of knowledge already. With that being said; Im glad you find it exciting and maybe  to be open for other priorities/talents/glyphs. It shows the strengths of our tank team, as it looks like you and Hal are discussing various options alot.

the fact you decided to focus on this one encounter/night doesn't mean the rest of us don't bother. :sideways:

As you, I feel I am contributing on a permanent basis if I have a clue what I am talking about. You can see my suggestions on Gara'jal.. there is none. We killed it in two nights (?) and I didnt really see that we had to go 2 healers to kill. You can see my suggestions on Garalon when we hit enrage and needed more dps. Well thought through suggestions that we used (atleast one of them during one kill). And on Elegon aswell when we hit enrage, I asked for 4+4. And I think you do bother and care and check logs. I would just wish there was more links from the logs in these forums. I dont know the logs language good enough. I will try to learn and step it up

[TeaLeaf]

I've been reading around on the prot pala stat prio this morning and its been quite interesting.   As usual, stat prio seems to depend on what you want to achieve.

The old school 'avoidance tank' prio seems to prio parry & dodge before hit & expertise and ignores haste.   This leads to high avoidance and arguably the lowest damage taken overall but is a total nightmare to heal as the damage taken is extremely spiky.    As in vanilla, generally this type of spec is not preferred and is why most tanks went down the EHP route instead.    Avoidance tanks seem to only work well for specific roles, e.g. hateful strike tanks.   Personally I am not a fan of this build unless it is for that specific fight role.

The Haste/Strength spec we mentioned last night (and I have been learning more about this morning) seems quite interesting.   Strength is obvious so I'll not repeat why, but the build otherwise puts a stat prio as hit/exp>haste>mastery.   The theory being, that holy power regen is hasted and threat/DPS is maximised.   The aim is to provide the regular self-healing instead of the increased block from mastery, along with the benefit of increased DPS/threat.

The mainstream/traditional EHP role seems to swap haste and mastery to the more logically expected order, i.e. hit/exp>mastery>haste to get more block for a smoother damage profile but at the cost of lower holy power gen and lower dps & threat.

(Parry : Dodge is assumed at roughly 2:1 across all of these builds)


Having spent a couple of hours on exploring this across various websites, I think it is worth trying a heavy haste build.  I'd be happy to put my vote in for guild bank paying for any respec/experiment costs (the other officers would need to agree too), but if we haste sufficiently we'd have an 'in effect mastery based tank' as the haste provides the mitigation via increased holy power regen.   The raid gets a nice benefit too from the DPS side of things.

Worth further research and testing tbh.   Hasted sufficiently I can see it would provide a lower mana cost to healers.   Where precisely that optimal haste level is........that's the tricky question!

[Whitey]

I did the reforge/gem last night but I'm not able to hit the hard expertise cap with my current gear although it's not too far off.  I was already going down the hit>Expertise>Mastery route so it's not too big a change other than needing to find a lot more haste.

[TeaLeaf]

Is there anything we can craft or BOEs we can buy to help you Whitey?

[TeaLeaf]

Bump for Tuesday.

[TeaLeaf]

Dropped real easy on the 3rd pull of the night.   Nice one RGT :thumbsup:

[Riggy]

gzzz guys!