Mining issues

Started by smilodon, October 19, 2011, 11:54:25 PM

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smilodon

A thought about what to do when new Squad members arrive and we're already running one or more mines with lots of resources still to gather. Should we consider this and should we set a level or remaining resource below which we don't reset and above which we do, nearing in mind the cost of calling in a mining ship.
From the wiki

QuoteABOUT RESETTING A INDUSTRIAL MINE:

This is needed when a group has added some other players to their group and want to have them get some of the stuff from the mine. So they have to let a npc pop the mine and retake it so that all members of the group can get some of the mine. It is normally told to everyone in chat to not mess with the mine or the npc attacking it. Play with honor Leave the mine and the npc alone and do not try to steal it.
smilodon
Whatever's gone wrong it's not my fault.

TeaLeaf

Personally, whilst I think the intention is laudable, I think it is impractical.  I think it is just one of those game mechanics that we have to accept.  It is equally unfair to those who found and defended the mine in a smaller group to then have to reduce their returns from the mine as the defence force grows and we've already come to accept that mining in large groups is simply neither efficient nor profitable.  I think it should be enough to join a group and the XP for defending is the reward, if a mine happens ot get reset in the normal course of events then no problem, but otherwise I'd be content to just be part of the defending group and to find further mines later on.
TL.
Wisdom doesn\'t necessarily come with age. Sometimes age just shows up all by itself.  (Tom Wilson)
Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships. (Michael Jordan)

albert

Is there any discussion on this topic on the BSGO forums. They tend to have opinion or guidelines on most things ethical, of course, our own Wing rules would supersede if all squad members are dMw.
Cheers, Bert

Sn00ks

Err, talking about ethics and good game play. Maybe our stealing of another players mine last night was a bit uncool? Not really dMw behaviour, and I am a guilty as the other miscreants because I didn't say anything.
Not a good advertisement for our community and may discourage new members?
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smilodon

The quote was from the BSO wiki so I think it's acceptable practice. However I take your point though TL. While it can be fun to be part of big groups for the fun aspect the rewards do drop dramatically.

On this point I'd also suggest we ask people who are in a group to actively defend a mine. The game mechanics are hard to get a handle on and so I'm sure no one is trying to get a free ride but being part of a group and then moving off to complete daily quests isn't really fair. If you're benefiting from the resource you really should be actively defending the mining ship, not half way across the sector mining for tylium. A quick dash to check a debris field is one thing but long periods away from the action isn't IMHO
smilodon
Whatever's gone wrong it's not my fault.

TeaLeaf

#5
DYOR my numbers could be wrong, but applying some math to the mines and referring to the relative cubit value of each element that is being mined:

This is the time it takes (to the nearest minute) to just recoup the cost of calling in a new mining ship depending on the number of people in the group.   Remember this is not profit time, it's the time it takes just to recover your costs, shared profit only starts trickling in after this period has elapsed.
Breakeven Time (mins)|Solo|   2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10
Water|1|2|3|3|4|5|6|7|8|8
Tylium|2|3|5|7|8|10|12|13|15|17
Titanium|3|7|10|13|17   |20|23|27|30|33

This is the minimum mine size to recover the cost of calling in a mining ship depending on the number of people in the group.  Again, this is not profit, just cost recovery, any excess in the mine over this level will result in shared profit - if you stick around that long and successfully defend it for the duration.
Cubits|Mine Cost|Solo|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10
Water|100|500|1000|1500|2000|2500|3000|3500|4000|4500|5000
Tylium|100|1000|2000|3000|4000|5000|6000|7000|8000|9000|10000
Titanium|100|2000|4000|6000|8000|10000|12000|14000|16000|18000|20000

I know it might be acceptable practice to reset a mine, but there are times when common sense says no it is not.   Based on the time it takes to recoup costs it looks like only Water mines are ever worth resetting and then only if they exceed perhaps say 10,000 water remaining.  Titanium looks like a 'never reset', and Tylium only where there is a good amount left, say 20,000 or more - and the profit margins on those limits is horribly low.  If you set a per person minimum profit then you'd raise those minimums much higher.

Hope this helps.

Re the ethics of stealing a mine - I see this as a different question.   This thread is about whether we should reset a mine with new people in the group.  Though tbh if someone is not defending it then I see no problem taking it if it gets destroyed by Colonial ships.  The quote mentioned a group announcing in the sector channel that they were resetting - and then you leave them alone and do not try to steal it as per the quote.
TL.
Wisdom doesn\'t necessarily come with age. Sometimes age just shows up all by itself.  (Tom Wilson)
Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships. (Michael Jordan)

Penfold

Quote from: Sn00ks;335184Err, talking about ethics and good game play. Maybe our stealing of another players mine last night was a bit uncool? Not really dMw behaviour, and I am a guilty as the other miscreants because I didn't say anything.
Not a good advertisement for our community and may discourage new members?

I think it depends on where the original players are. If they're hovering over their mine like a protective mother fighting off the invader and the mine gets destroyed only for us to quickly zip in and plant a mine ship before they get a chance to then that is unacceptable imo. How would we feel about that - not terribly impressed I bet.

However if they'e been killed or are MIA and the mine has been destroyed then it's fair game. (Also I don't see that one has to intercede and help out mine's defender). Similarly if there's several people hovering around a planetoid waiting for it to turn into a resource then it's first one in.

albert

Quote from: smilodon;335185The quote was from the BSO wiki so I think it's acceptable practice. However I take your point though TL. While it can be fun to be part of big groups for the fun aspect the rewards do drop dramatically.

On this point I'd also suggest we ask people who are in a group to actively defend a mine. The game mechanics are hard to get a handle on and so I'm sure no one is trying to get a free ride but being part of a group and then moving off to complete daily quests isn't really fair. If you're benefiting from the resource you really should be actively defending the mining ship, not half way across the sector mining for tylium. A quick dash to check a debris field is one thing but long periods away from the action isn't IMHO

Surely the squad system dictates that all members benefit from the mining or NCP loot anyone in the squad wins, so whether you're hovering over the mine or off mining asteroids, you're still contributing and not 4000+ away from the mine?

Ok a squad of 3 and one guy off on his own somewhere is no good at all. But a squad of 5+ it doesn't hurt to boost the earnings with a bit of mining IMO.
Cheers, Bert

smilodon

Very good point. I guess as long as what you're doing contributes it's fine. BSO mechanics are still a bit if a mystery and it's hard to always know what you're earning as a group member in a sector or out of a sector or in a base etc.

Sent from my HTC Desire
smilodon
Whatever's gone wrong it's not my fault.

JonnyAppleSeed

It should be up to the people that have come into the party if THEY want to reset and throw up the dosh for a new mine then spread the love ..Its high risk so look out for water ninja's:flirty:
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion


smilodon

Obviously mining is a complex subject. The tables are great for working out what's profitable and what's not. The only thing I would add is that mining planetoids also means we'll see a succession of NPC ships coming to our location. On the plus side this means XP and loot from their holds but on the minus side we're going use resources on cannon rounds and missiles plus damage to our hulls. I assume the benefit from killing NPC's outweighs the cost to us in fighting?
smilodon
Whatever's gone wrong it's not my fault.

Liberator

#11
In theory the NPC killing does recoup the bullet expenditure, XP + scrap + high value items will about cover the cost of an Escort firing off the rounds needed to take down a larger ship if being helped by the rest of the squad. But I reckon the cost for a line ship in a large group will not be.

If people are in the same system, then they get the same looting as the rest, if they are out of the system, then they don't. I think myself and Smilo worked out that XP and looting doesn't work for a docked ship.

When I have been added into a group and a mining ship is found, I make my way to the system to help defend, it's the mine owners choice whether they allow people to stay away and do their own stuff, but I feel I have to be there to justify my share.

If you are added to the group after and a mine is already pumping out resources, then it's your choice to go help defend or not, there is no benefit for someone joining late and not in the same system as nothing is shared at all. If you are called in to help defend, then you can ask that the mine is reset or just benefit from the XP.

If the mine is reset, then it should be repurchased by the person it's being reset for, this may possibly change the decision of the group.

If going AFK for a longish period, then you should leave the group and rejoin when you are back, there is nothing worse than a group of 5 or 6, where some are AFK and just letting their login timeout in the browser, for the group that is active to then find a planetoid and have to share with long term AFK's.

Dismiss yourself from the squad if you intend to make your way back to base and log out for the night, squadron leader should be allowed to drop members if they have said they are leaving for the night and don't intend returning to defending it if a new one is found.

Same goes if you are planning on leaving soon and don't intend to stay and defend a new mine if found.

It's up to the remaining defenders whether they reset the mine or not, but if there is 20k'ish of something left (lower for water) and the squad have been defending for over an hour or so, it's only right that the share remains active for the duration of the remaining resource if they leave.

Taking a mine that is undefended and an NPC or player has taken it down is fine in my book, we wouldn't expect someone to defend our mine if we were away.

If they have been actively defending the mine and helping ours, get killed and lose it, then maybe we should look into grabbing the mine and whispering to him that we will allow it to be reset if he wishes to take it back after.

Maybe that will allow us to get a name for ourselves and rest our conscience.

Our fast moving raiders can go searching the local system and mining, nothing wrong with that as long as they don't expect a rescue when over 4K from the mine and return if requested, the looting system shares the spoils of all things done in the system, so they are benefiting the squad.

OldBloke

Quote from: Liberator;335236Stuff from Lib

Wot 'e said.
"War without end. Well, what was history if not that? And how would having the stars change anything?" - James S. A. Corey

Gortex

I have had some thoughts about this and last night was a very good example of the sort of situation we are finding our selves sometimes in. A group of 6 of us with a Tylium and water mine in one sector with 5 mining it and myself in the adjacent sector with Titanium so three mines going at the same time which was very nice for all involved even if not in a very active sector.

The issue I feel came once I lost control of the Titanium (dam those human player scum) and Snooks had found the large Tyilum mine in a new area. I jumped and he joined the group letting the mining ship he had die and calling another. His return on the mine went from 600 a tick to 75 and because he had joined after the first group was not benefiting from the water or Titanium we had in the other sector. This I feel was a bit mean on him and what should have happened was let the mining ship die and create a new group that way he would have benefited more from just the one mine and because I had moved to help him should have given up my trickle of water etc even though not in the region.

 I think if we started as a group and had multiple mines in different sectors then this is fine and all well and good if the group is large enough for others to go off and mine the odd asteroid or kill more NPC's as it benefits all in the area. If others are happy to join for the xp and some loot but not the resources gain then also good but not be forced to share the mines they come across if in different areas.

As it turned out the area Snooks was in ended up with lots of easy pvp kills and good for dailies with the mine close to the outpost ship so did not need baby sitting all the time.
"The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown." "Never explain anything."

Penfold

#14
I agree with everything you say Lib (dammit I thought I'd never say that).

I also agree with Gortex and thought last night was unfair and not handled correctly. In retrospect either the original mines should be have been reset or Sn00ks, Gortex I should have formed a splinter group in that sector the three of us were working together.

That way each has their own and it's not a case of we're sharing ours and getting nothing back.

Once that happens then there's no harm in re-linking up for future forays are outlined by Lib above.

It's almost a case of :

A. Group is started, find a mine and start mining
B. New people join group and either help defend of go off on exploratory mission
C. New mine is found by someone from group B. All people from group B link, make new group, mine and defend that mine. (along with any surplus people from original group A who want to go help make numbers if applicable).
D. Then, if and as appropriate, everyone links up again to form enlarged Group A for next mine.

Where it doesn't work is that at point C a new mine is found by someone from Group A and what would happen.

Anyway, does that roughly make sense and would it make it fairer?