Raiding

[Marduk]

apologies to goregrinder, misinterpetation on my side
was not my intention to duke it out via forums


ill leave this debate up to others till i get my head bolted up straight

[Lucian]

For tuppenceworth: I would like to get started on SSC - the faster we move through it, the faster we all progress.  25 man raids should be expected on 2/3 raid evenings I think.

[sheepy]

We understand that kara is boring for most.

yes we want to progress but please give it time we need a couple more members to make sure that we can put toghter consistant 25 man groups.

It personally dont see it being long till we more or less leave kara but just have a little patientce guys. we will try to get things moveing as quickly as possible.

[lunares]

AS Tl said my case is a bit special (due to gear) hence i might not have any right to speak here.
But atm basicly i only help in raids to help if needed. This means mostly repair bills only and some badges if your lucky.
As i heard it went pretty good with khara till some ppl needed a break, RL stuff etc. Then it started kinda over again with some good geared ppl and some less geared ppl (correct me if i a wrong btw).
 
Also as ice said the helping will stop or those toons get replaced by lesser euiped toons cause ppl have all their want or just bored of it.
 
I dont mind helping, but personally for me it would be nice to see some new stuff i havent seen much and that prolly would be ZA. TL is right about gear and difficulty, but unlike TL( or at least the impression i got from the posts here) i think ppl actually can do more then 1 boss if they get their tactics right.
 
Just my 2 cents,
 
Lunares

[TeaLeaf]

TL is right about gear and difficulty, but unlike TL( or at least the impression i got from the posts here) i think ppl actually can do more then 1 boss if they get their tactics right.

Not saying they are impossible, but that they will be a damn sight harder without good gear.  Example:

Bear boss - simple tank'n'spank fight
- people were going oom and you only just managed to keep the tanks going and only just scraped the fight.  This implies a need for better EHP tanking gear to soakup the bear, more raw healing/mp5 form healers and a higher dps and base stats pool from ranged.  

Imo to do the other bosses you really need to be able to walk in and kill the bear boss within the timer to get the bonus loot.  By all means try other bosses in ZA (I am really not trying to make you despondent, just trying to help you be realistic about where you will get most loot gains from right now) but be realistic about what is immediately possible.  ZA requires an increasingly high degree of teamwork and gear as you progress through the instance.  Teamwork you can deliver, but you might find easier gear on Gruul, Lurker & Void Reaver.

If you went to Eagle boss
-the gauntlet can be sserious challenge witht he wrong or poorly geared group.  Too low a dps and you'll be overun by eagles, too low EHP on the tanks will lead to healers going OOM before the end of the gauntet.  The gauntlet is not impossible, but it is a gear check.  
-you have already tried the Eagle boss about 2 months back and after talking to Sheepy at the time the SOG raid did not have enough HP to just ignore the eagles and just dps the boss.  That is a straight forward gear problem and leads to healers having to heal the raid far too often and going oom.

If you went to Phoenix boss
-long fight with a high AOE requirement and lots of AOE damage on the raid requiring a big mana pool and sustained high dps whilst the tank takes some pretty high damage throughout.

If you went to Lynx boss
-very heavy mana fight and requires two decently geared tanks to cope with saber lash and the spawned add in phase 2.  This fight is about sustained single target dps which requires good base stats and a for healers to have excellent mana pools & MP% as the raid takes periodic damage throughout the duration of the fight.

ZA is meant to start from Prince level and go upwards.  Imo the upwards curve is pretty steep in ZA compared to say Gruul, VR or Lurker.  That's all I was trying to say.  By all means have more goes at ZA, I am sure you will progress, but you might find easier loot and raid upgrades elsewhere.  Your gear may of course have improved beyond my appreciation of it with the recent run ogf good Kara clearances, which case you might well progress a bit more, but certainly in early trips to ZA you might spend a whole night on just 2 bosses.

Bottom Line:
I'd be damn glad to see SOG raid any of the above and I really do hope you continue to see the progress and success that you have recently been achieving continue into Gruul, SSC, TK, ZA and beyond.  


TL.

[lunares]

MY apologies to TL if my last post sounded a bit harsh, kinda tired then and normally i dont find the right words easyly.
I agree with you that ZA is quite a bit harder then khara, also agree that VR and solarian are prolly easyer to do.
But what i meant to say was that yes its hard but if ppl hear to often its hard they might not be as willing to try. I dont say anyone would do that but it could be a possibility.
 
Still even if it is 2 bosses a night, i know i am up for that, even if it means wiping a lot. The best way to learn a fight is to actually do it.
 
Lunares

[Lexander]

Well I'm not raiding atm but I have seen similiar situatios before few times so I have to comment. There is always the gear/reguirement talk going on when some instance is almost in full farm. If someone remembers the old times before TBC, when SoG had 2 raid groups? The first one were superstars, they were rocking at the twin emperors and raid group 2 were strugling with bwl, so the group I were in was farming easily MC but then we kinda ran into the wall in BWL's first boss. The talk got on that people needed more gear and such, and we tried the boss many many times and after wiping we went back to MC. But one day when the tactics were right we got it down and then it took the snowball effect, and in the next few months were at Nefarian.

So my advice, don't fear new challenges! New bosses go down with good tactics and gear, it needs both. I have full confidience that you can do everything that you want when the time is right You might need to farm Kara a few times, but while doing it almost in one night, it leaves you time to go to train tactics on new places. And new bosses need wiping, some more than some others, but after downing the boss, it feels very good. Good example is that soon Gruul will fall before you!

- Lex