Leaving

[Bob]

I am deeply and truly sorry for seing Adul leave like this, and I very much can feel his reasons for doing so.

First of all (as Neff mentioned earlier), Adul has always been a part of SoG, since the very beginning, which makes it even  harder to see him leave (not to mention that I and many with me know him in RL).  Secondly, his reasons for leaving are also of greate importance to what kind of guild we are going to be in the future.

SoG started out as a purly social guild with almost only RL friends in it.  As the months passed it expanded (mostly with RL friends of RL friends and so on), and in some time we were starting to get quite a few level 60s.  Being 60 for a long time without doing anything else than help others leveling can be quite boring, so we had some leaving to other raiding guilds, and to prevent all from leaving, something had to be done.

The alliance with Danu was started, and together with them SoG started raiding MC.  After some time SoG and Danu parted, and just after new years 2006 we downed Ragnaros for the first time, and soon we had the whole of MC on farm status.  This is when the problems seemd to arrive (there might habe been signs of 'em earlier too, but I think this is when "the shit really hit the fan").

Up untill now, SoG had been a pure casual raiding guild.  People ejoyed eachothers company, some raided more than others and some raided less - but in the long run everybody got a trip to MC every now and than.  But you can't farm MC forever - people want more.

That's when we started doing BWL.  Due to lack of people on the BWL (non-loot) raids, the officers really had to put their heads together and work something out - and that must have been really though: how can you combine the greatness of a casual rading guild with the fast advancment of a hard-core raiding guild?

The soulution they ended up with (the one we have today), I would say really is good - in a perfect world, that is.  But nothing is ever perfect, and this system has it flaws as well (which the reason this thread was started is a very good example off).  It is cleare that the system will need some twitching before it all will run smoothly again.  And I honestly do believe that it will some day.


As Adul mentioned a couple of times, the casual raiders are an important part (just as important as the hard-core/full-time raiders are) of the guild, and we can not afford to loose any of them.  I don't think that making a RG2 will really help solve the problem - the only thing happening will be that we push the problem in front of us.  What will happen the day RG2 reaches the point RG1 are today?  Should we just make a RG3 and continue like this forever?


I will here present my suggesiont on a sollution.  I have mentioned this to the officers before, but I would also like to share it with the rest of the guild, so I can hear what you think about it as well, so here goes:


In all the raids, a fixed number of spots (say 3, 4 or perhaps even 5 if that ain't too much) will initially be reserved for Defenders.  As a Defender you will have the right to use one of those reserved spots only once each week, meaning if you get a reserved spot on the Thursday raid, you will have to wait i line behind all the Guardians (and other Defenders who still haven't used their reserved spot) for both Sunday and Tuesday.

The reason why I think this could work out pretty well, is that you enshure both that there will be room for Defenders every raid, and also that it won't be the same Defenders who gets to raid every day.



I'm gonna stop writing now and go to bed soon.  I hope you don't mind reading my long post, and I also hope you find some interesting views in there

[Dalto]

sinap, you left the guild for 5 minutes, and then rejoined

[TeaLeaf]

Originally posted by Threbrilith@Mar 8 2006, 12:26 AM
I will here present my suggesiont on a sollution. I have mentioned this to the officers before, but I would also like to share it with the rest of the guild, so I can hear what you think about it as well, so here goes:
In all the raids, a fixed number of spots (say 3, 4 or perhaps even 5 if that ain't too much) will initially be reserved for Defenders.

Unfortunately, as you said, this isn't a perfect world and this also is not a perfect solution.  It doesn't actually solve the problem, it simply pushes it back from Defenders to Guardians.  The underlying problem is that a raid has 40 places.  If more than that want to raid then you have a problem.  You're right in saying that RG2 pushes the problem back - but it does solve it in the short term.  The other thing to consider is that having two RGs does actually provide a benefit as having say an extra 1 or 2 people wanting to raid becomes more likely to be manageable under a two raid group structure.

TL.

[Othbarty]

I must say that im very sorry to see Addy leave like this...

As we now have no problem filling a extra 20man raid groupe at the time of BWL or any of the other raids, I would actually go as far as to say that the new system is obsolete... We have had more than 60 ppl wanting to raid every raid day, and more than 20 on the non-official, still making a great advancement in AQ20 on the non-official raid days, and a steady and good progress in BWL too.

The new system is not so great.. Its mainly guardians that are happy with it, and that is because they are not struck by the inavailibility () to raid with the guild when they want too... Defenders have no actuall chance of getting into the raids...

[TeaLeaf]

Originally posted by Othbarty+Mar 8 2006, 08:42 AM-->

QUOTE(Othbarty @ Mar 8 2006, 08:42 AM)

Defenders have no actuall chance of getting into the raids...[/b]

Which is exactly why RG2 will help you.  If gives you a raid group into which you will have priority over Soldiers.  The whole point of this is to help people progress.  We cannot do that with only a single RG.  

We could not progress when a large proportion of the raid group was not commited and failed to turn up most raid nights.  The difference is not a small one - take Vael as an example, we have killed him twice, both times with almost all of the RG dead at the end of the fight and both times within what was 5 seconds of the attack becoming a total wipe.  If we want to progress in BWL then the people who raid need to have the bulk of their Tier 1 sets to survive, experience of the fight and hwo to deal with it and an increasing amount of Tier 2 equipment, which by definition usually means those who turn up regularly for raids.  Those who can only turn up every now and then will by definition tend to have less experience and less Tier 1 equipment and will be less used to the fights themselves - imagine turning up to the Razegore fight after never having seen it or only have seen it once or twice a month ago.  In OL and MC you can get away with this variability a lot more, but in BWL you simply cannot.  RG1 gives the dedicated raiders a chance to progress.  RG2 gives the less dedicated raiders a chance to raid in an instance that is a challenge but not impossible ot them, an opportunity to complete their Tier 1 sets (and to start their Tier 2 sets through Ragnaros and Onyxia) and to continue to retain the ability to just 'turn up' as and when you feel like it and be reasonably certain of raiding.

We are a hybrid Guild - we provide raid opportunities at the highest level and at the other end of the scale we provide a social Guild - in this i think we are almost unique.  We will never have a perfect solution for people who only wan tot raid 'a little' until all members commit to raid 100% of the time and the number of members we have is a multiple of 40 and we never gain or lose members.  As this is simply never going to happen then we have to accept that it will not be perfect.

[Bob]

Originally posted by TeaLeaf@Mar 8 2006, 08:36 AM
Unfortunately, as you said, this isn't a perfect world and this also is not a perfect solution. It doesn't actually solve the problem, it simply pushes it back from Defenders to Guardians.

[post=115639]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

Yes, this is no perfect solution either, and it won't solve the whole problem, but I do think it would be a slight improvement to the system as it is today.

The situation we have now, is that the Defenders have close to zero chance to get a spot in the raid.  With the solution I sugges, you enshure that there will be guaranteed Defender spots, and there will be a rotation on who gets the spots.

Concerning the Guardians that will loose their spots to a Defender in this system (3 pr. raid, as I suggested), that might not be a good thing, but we already have the risc of a few Guardians missing out on a raid.  As of today we have 48 Guardians, meaning if all of them show up, 8 won't be able to come.  I don't think it would be too bad if that number increased to 11 who could possibly be left outside.  Here you could also work on some rotation thing, so that not the same Guardians miss their spot more than max once a week to a Defender.

Just throwing out suggestions for you to think about - hope it is of some use

[TeaLeaf]

Originally posted by Threbrilith@Mar 8 2006, 09:04 AM
The situation we have now, is that the Defenders have close to zero chance to get a spot in the raid. With the solution I sugges, you enshure that there will be guaranteed Defender spots, and there will be a rotation on who gets the spots.

We've already thought it through and the higher percentage of WIN WIN comes from the RG2 solution.  You cannot conceivably argue that RG2 would not provide you with a better chance to raid than RG1 on its own.  You also cannot argue that Defenders will not have a better chance of getting into RG2 than fighting with 8 Guardians and all of the Defenders for 3 raid positions in a sole RG1.

We are trying desparately hard to introduce and manage solutions that work for the majority.  We also need a period of time running one system to genuinely assess its effectiveness.  The final part of the current system is almost in place, so please just hang fire and wait a bit longer, the officers are putting every effort into fine tuning the system to make it work for as many people as possible.  I believe we are on the cusp of making this happen.

TL.

[TeaLeaf]

Originally posted by Othbarty@Mar 8 2006, 08:42 AM
As we now have no problem filling a extra 20man raid groupe at the time of BWL or any of the other raids, I would actually go as far as to say that the new system is obsolete... We have had more than 60 ppl wanting to raid every raid day, and more than 20 on the non-official, still making a great advancement in AQ20 on the non-official raid days, and a steady and good progress in BWL too.

Oth, I forgot to reply to this bit.

Give the Officers some time.  We have a plan, it does not happen over night, we are working on the plan as fast as we can.  Keep the faith and give us some time.

TL.

[Othbarty]

What?! A plan that doesnt happen over the night? Outrageous

I have all the confidense in that the Officers will come with a solution to the problem, and I hope ppl will stop leaving the guild.. I have seen many leaving becaus their unable to raid.. That sucks... (Sorry language)

[Tinilgawiel]

Might seem a bit harsh

Told you soo

[Adularena]

STUFF THE RAID GROUP 2 WILL YA?

Who wants to be in raid grp 2?

Who wants to join SoG to be in their raid grp 2?

Who wants a temporary short term solution?

Who wants to feel left over?

Not me. take away my access or I`ll be reading this thread for ever

[Bob]

TL wrote a lot of things I won't start commenting in detail.

The only thing I want to add, is that I feel it's very hard to make up my own mind on "which side" to stand on in this situation, because I really think I see the challenges both camps have to face, no matter what the final sollution will be.

Originally posted by TeaLeaf@Mar 8 2006, 09:06 AM
The final part of the current system is almost in place, so please just hang fire and wait a bit longer, the officers are putting every effort into fine tuning the system to make it work for as many people as possible.

[post=115652]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

I hope you don't mind my "nagging", and I don't mean to push you more than neccesary.  I do think you officers do your best in trying to work things out for us, and I only want to throw out ideas as they pop into my head.  The only thing I appreciate in return, is that the ideas get noted and concidered by the officers (and that we also get some kind of sign/response that you have done so, which TL in this thread has been very good at).

Threb out - for now

[Neff]

As Adul mentioned a couple of times, the casual raiders are an important part (just as important as the hard-core/full-time raiders are) of the guild, and we can not afford to loose any of them. I don't think that making a RG2 will really help solve the problem - the only thing happening will be that we push the problem in front of us. What will happen the day RG2 reaches the point RG1 are today? Should we just make a RG3 and continue like this forever?

The solution to this is : after we get a RG2, no more ppl!The recruitment had some flaws because there was some times were there was low attendance and we recruited more. Take the priests, for a little time we were _lucky_ if we had 3 priests in MC/BWL/OL now we have what 9? priests that wants to raid and 7 of them being Guardians . So After we get a RG2 up we would have very harsh/strict rules.

But what addy says is very true, who wants to join a RG2? i know there is some ppl , but not alot of people, thats not enough. Its all about self-sacrificing, but then its the Guardian status if i gave up a raidspot, id be breaking the guardian "rules" 2/3 raids needed attended.

But i really think an RG2 is the only answer, we have alot of ppl that are clearly experienced like Lucian, who cant fit the guardian requirements( no offence intended) that know alot and is very experienced.

But 10 months of mc is a little bit harsh, just look at Shadow council, they progressed  fairly fast to Majordomo, why? because of Bein was here in SOG and knew every single tactic up to domo.

The reason im willing to put alot of time and effort into making an RG2, is because i dont want losses like addy happen again.

Thanks for your time.

[Bastet]

I am sorry to see you go addy   , you where one of the ppl that was always here and even got me hooked on raiding...  

Best of luck outside SOG and i am sure ill see you arround.  

[Nefertem]

Originally posted by Neff@Mar 8 2006, 03:40 PM
But i really think an RG2 is the only answer, we have alot of ppl that are clearly experienced like Lucian, who cant fit the guardian requirements( no offence intended) that know alot and is very experienced.

[post=115735]Quoted post[/post]

[/b]

At first I was very skeptical about this RG2, but now I do as you see it as one of the last solutions to the problem.. I don't really care about loot from BWL at this point as I, to be honest, doesn't have that much from MC yet    So I am willing to be in RG2 and theach how to down those noob bosses   .. I can't promise I won't try to ninja a spot in BWL from time to time tho  

But

Hello and Goodbye.

Im sad to see you leave adu  But I do understand your reasons, and I hope Ill see you from time to time, and kick some horde butt in pvp
bb adu