The use of map flaws

[Dr Sadako]

When playing PCS (or match ladders for that matter) you are not allowed to use map flaws.

On e.g. italy it is not legit to bunk jump someone through the winecellar roof to the barrels on Ts right. Duh! Throwing flashes over the wall to bombsite B on dust2 is also a map flaw etc etc etc. If it is not possible in IRL then it is most likely not legit to do, skywalking included!

If you think it is dubious or you are uncertain ... don't do it.

Cheers,

[suicidal_monkey]

Surely throwing grenades over walls is possible irl ? That I would not class as a map bug at all. If the "wall" is supposed to be a building and theres a sky bug that lets you throw into the sky or through the roof or something, fair enough, but if its a wall representing a wall surely thats alright?

edit: when I beta-tested de_springfield for steve I made sure you could throw grenades over the walls...

[JB]

Oh btw can u post some url's of where to get Springfield from.

[suicidal_monkey]

try ftp://ftp.cscentral.com/maps/de_maps/de_sf_v2.zip
otherwise theres a whole bunch listed in this thread:
http://forum.deadmen.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=10201#10201

[DarkAngel]

thinks it on the deadmens dl list and they also have mods so you can have springfield arms etc hehe quite funny

[ChimpBoy]

I agree with the grenades over the wall bit - thats gotta be fair.  I'm assuming that you mean throwing over the wall with the small hole in it?  

Surely thats legit  :?:

I admit to doing this because I thought it was fair game.  Granted I agree with Sadako if the grenades are falling through roofs or if peeps are jumping through walls, but I think this needs clarifying IMHO

[smilodon]

Chimpy, you're a pretty big map flaw yourself. Well I keep tripping over your corpse all the time and it's annoying as hell....... could you try and make sure you die in a corner or something. There's going to be an nasty accident soon :wink:

On a more serious note and to address Sadako's point, I think you have to decide if a wall is a wall with a top or if it's a natural barrier. Is the B site wall supposed to stretch up beyond the limit of the map or does it have a natural top?

I tend to agree with Sadako. The only way through the wall is the door or the hole in the wall. That should be the only route through which you can fling a grenade too.

[Dr Sadako]

I agree with the grenades over the wall bit - thats gotta be fair. I'm assuming that you mean throwing over the wall with the small hole in it?

Surely thats legit :?:

If you play clan ladders e.g. on ClanBase it is considered not legit. I think it has to do with that you can throw grenades thru the walls above the arches on some of the standard maps i.e. if you aim to throw over the wall but if you miss you might actually throw it thru the "holes" in the walls due to map flaws (still achieving the same goal). To avoid any unfortunate "accidents" or "I'm just so crap throwing nades and I didn't mean it" situations they have been ruled as non legit.

[ChimpBoy]

Good lord - two apologies in two minutes from the Chimp (better change my sig  8O )

Fair point - I wont be doing this during matches, but I think if we're doing general informal map play on the public pcs servers then we shouldnt enforce this IMHO

P.S. shut up Smiley  :wink:   or I'll spray your dead ass  8O  
(spray with PAINT boys, please refrain from obvious sexual innuendo !!!)

[smilodon]

.....but I think if we're doing general informal map play on the public pcs servers then we shouldnt enforce this IMHO

Then you're wrong! Lobbing grenades over walls in the vague hope of blowing someone up is not my ides of skilled play (do I have any idea what skilled play actually is?). A grenade should be thrown at someone or possibly used as part of a planned feint (sp) and that's it.

If there is the chance that you grenade might sail through a barrier and blow up another player then I don' think it should be done either in matches or PCS play. I don't much fancy having a magic grenade teleport through a ceiling and blow me up at all, regardless of where I'm playing.

[edit] That sounded more agressive than intended......just my thoughts but each to their own   [/edit]

[suicidal_monkey]

throwing HE grenades in vague hope is fine you just waste the grenade.

For walls its usually flashbangs which are in use, and if the grenade is still in the air you have a better chance of flashing people who are trying to hide from it. I find my natural instinct for site B on dust2 is to aim for the little hole anyway. I usually forget about trying to get it over the wall. The only other instance of this "over-the-wall" approach I can think of is de_inferno where you can throw over the house by the uncovered site so its not a major problem.

I think the reason it might be banned in some ladders is the possibility of the grenade going off in an errant skybox, which might blind anyone who can see that skybox, but I'm not sure if thats correct.

p.s. I've never seen a grenade pass through things (except window panes...)

[ChimpBoy]

Think thats a bit flawed Smiley - everyone (and I mean everyone) in PCS has at some point flung a random HE or flash into a known choke point, regardless of whether they know someone is there or not.

Skilled play doesnt always come into it - How often have I been hidden and creeping only to see HE grens chip away at my health because I'm hidden in an area where the opposition suspect enemy presence.

Answer - lots :wink:

Sure, I agree with not exploiting map flaws, as everyone should, but I think the dust2 bomb site B wall is a legit area for throwing grens in informal pcs play.  It would happen in real life, so I'm ok with it for pcs.

[smilodon]

Hey Squeeky,

I never commented on tactical use of grenades. Throwing a grenade where you suspect an enemy might be hiding, or to fool an enemy into thinking you're heading in a certain direction when in fact you're going the other way are all legit uses.

Heaving grenades over walls in the vain hope that you might hit something may be allowed but it's a bit daft.

And as mentioned grenades can do odd things on some maps like drop through roofs or light up whole skyboxes.

So Squeeky don't get it wrong. "Always pull out the pin, put the grenade in your pocket and run quickly over there!"

Mr. J rules  

[TeaLeaf]

Map flaws should not be used, period.  For example, on de_cbble, throwing a FB above the turrets from T-spawn will result in everyone on the map outside of T-spawn getting blinded.  An obvious map flaw and there are other similar ones, some mentioned above.

I personally do not believe that throwing grenades is automatically un-PCS as all posters I think would agree.  However there are situations where it would be - for example on cs_italy if you tossed an HE into the first floor window you can guarantee to injure a hossie, whereas a FB would be fine.

I think that tossing a grenade over a wall is fine as well, so long as it is not abusing a map flaw!  If the ability to toss a grenade up there is not meant to be there, or results in a map flaw FB-effect, then it should not be used.  

It is sometimes difficult to get a definitive guide to what is PCS and what is not on a particular map, but at the end of the day if we all remember that it is 'how' we play CS that makes it 'PCS' then we will probably all make the right decisions about what to use or not use on a map.

TL.  

[suicidal_monkey]

:nasty end:





...I felt the arguement was over and some humour was in order