Early assist calls

Started by Sandrion, July 31, 2006, 01:35:35 PM

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Bastet

hmm i quess i was more tired last nite then i thought :blink: anyhow, if ppl go for tanking stats on a sword/mace theres only 3 good weapons till well into AQ, namely Quel, bloodlords defender, and spineshatter. Not counting TF, cause well it dont bloody drop for us.... There isnt too much diff in dmg between those 3, as far as i recall.
Aszune (Alliance):
Sokhar lv 80 (H/M) Warrior, Sokhár lv 80 (H/M) Death Knight, Beset lv 70 (NE/F) Druid, Bastet lv 70 (NE/F) Rogue, Mentu lv 70 (Dr/M) Shaman
-=[dMw]=-Bastet (CSS) / -=[dMw]=-Niwa (BF2) / -=dMw=- Sokhar (BF2142)
-=[dMw]=- MVP Award Holder (June 2006) Winning team -=[dMw]=- Christmas Crunch (2008)

Sandrion

Bastet here is the source I'm relying on which proves that druid > warrior in terms of aggro.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-druid&t=781672&p=1&tmp=1#post781675
 
Als keep in mind that druids are more efficient when it comes to rage usage. We can maul on every attack, faerie fire is free and we have swipe as 'rage dump' ability. Although rage is not much of a problem if you are tanking a hard hitting boss. The problem is that our ability to generate aggro reduces with the amount of damage mitigation of the mob you're tanking, more armor and dodge means less damage thus less threat. Since druids completely rely on damage to generate aggro, opposed to warriors, warriors will surely out aggro us on high level mobs.

Bastet

Quote from: SandrionThe problem is that our ability to generate aggro reduces with the amount of damage mitigation of the mob you're tanking, more armor and dodge means less damage thus less threat. Since druids completely rely on damage to generate aggro, opposed to warriors, warriors will surely out aggro us on high level mobs.

Warriors have a problem with too much dmg migration, you dont get rage for dodge/parry (not sure, but it sure is a hell of a lot less then what you get for a hit of 1k). With high armor, like might or wrath, tanking instances like strat is not possible unless you dual wield. Its one of the reasons you sometimes see movies from guilds where warriors dual wield, you take more dmg, and make more dmg, thus making sure theres enough rage to work with.
Druids dont have the problem that thier rage creation can stick to nil if you only dodge/parry a few blows, your dodge is lower, and armor is higher, making for a more steady rage creation. The downside of that is that thier threath creation works differantly (Druid and spellbinder = lolz)
Aszune (Alliance):
Sokhar lv 80 (H/M) Warrior, Sokhár lv 80 (H/M) Death Knight, Beset lv 70 (NE/F) Druid, Bastet lv 70 (NE/F) Rogue, Mentu lv 70 (Dr/M) Shaman
-=[dMw]=-Bastet (CSS) / -=[dMw]=-Niwa (BF2) / -=dMw=- Sokhar (BF2142)
-=[dMw]=- MVP Award Holder (June 2006) Winning team -=[dMw]=- Christmas Crunch (2008)

Sandrion

Quote from: BastetWarriors have a problem with too much dmg migration, you dont get rage for dodge/parry (not sure, but it sure is a hell of a lot less then what you get for a hit of 1k). With high armor, like might or wrath, tanking instances like strat is not possible unless you dual wield. Its one of the reasons you sometimes see movies from guilds where warriors dual wield, you take more dmg, and make more dmg, thus making sure theres enough rage to work with.
Druids dont have the problem that thier rage creation can stick to nil if you only dodge/parry a few blows, your dodge is lower, and armor is higher, making for a more steady rage creation. The downside of that is that thier threath creation works differantly (Druid and spellbinder = lolz)

Yes, I was thinking about that a couple of days ago. Doesn't better tanking gear nerf your ability to generate threat quite a bit? Since warriors mainly focus on +def/dodge/parry/block.
 
I did a baron run with opticalrush once, and like you said he wasn't using wrath, but a 2hander and DPS gear for tanking. He was like an aggro magnet, didn't let go of anything, not even when tanking multiple (4+) mobs; truely amazing. But he was taking a lot more damage though.
 
Btw what is the problem with the spellbinders, since druids can't be pollied? Do they have a frost shield that reduces attack speed by 40% or something (these are a major pain)?

Bastet

yep, to high tanking kit is not good for tanking lower things. i use dual wield, and still my tank armor to limit dmg somewhat.
 
I dunno why @ spellbinder, i just know if i give vargen one, ppl start dieing :narnar:
Aszune (Alliance):
Sokhar lv 80 (H/M) Warrior, Sokhár lv 80 (H/M) Death Knight, Beset lv 70 (NE/F) Druid, Bastet lv 70 (NE/F) Rogue, Mentu lv 70 (Dr/M) Shaman
-=[dMw]=-Bastet (CSS) / -=[dMw]=-Niwa (BF2) / -=dMw=- Sokhar (BF2142)
-=[dMw]=- MVP Award Holder (June 2006) Winning team -=[dMw]=- Christmas Crunch (2008)

Sandrion

#20
Well a druid shouldn't let go of a mob.
 
Here are some stats that indicate the amount of damage someone must do to overaggro on me when I only use maul on every attack; this is with only MoTW and Thorns on me and without taking threat generated swipe into account. In a real situation I will generate a little more threat then stated here.
 
-----
My AP in bear form is 912 with MoTW on which equals 65.1DPS.
My weapon DPS is 52.4.
Together that is 117.5DPS.
Multiply this by 2.5 (bear attack speed) = 293.9 + 154 damage from maul (got the +20% maul damage talent) = 448 unmitigated damage per hit on average.
 
448 x 1.3 = 582.4
white: 572 x 1.75 x 0.8 = 815.36
crit: 572 x 0.2 = 116.48 x 1.75 x 2 x 2 = 407.68
avg threat per maul: 815.36 + 407.68 = 1223.04
1456 / 2.5 = 489.216 TPS
 
Thorns: 18 / 3 = 6 TPS
fearie fire: 180 / 10 = 18 TPS
 
Total TPS: 513.216
 
After 0% mitigation = TPS
Melee aggro gain = 513.216 / 0.7 / 0.8 x 1.1 = 1008 DPS
Ranged aggro gain = 513.216 / 0.7 x 1.3 = 953 DPS
 
After 30% mitigation = 358.2512 TPS
Melee aggro gain = 358.2512 / 0.7 / 0.8 x 1.1 = 706 DPS
Ranged aggro gain = 358.2512 / 0.7 x 1.3 = 667 DPS
 
After 40% mitigation = 307.9296 TPS
Melee aggro gain = 307.9296 / 0.7 / 0.8 x 1.1 = 605 DPS
Ranged aggro gain = 307.9296 / 0.7 x 1.3 = 572 DPS
 
After 50% mitigation = 256.608 TPS
Melee aggro gain = 256.608 / 0.7 / 0.8 x 1.1 = 504 DPS
Ranged aggro gain = 256.608 / 0.7 x 1.3 = 477 DPS
 
After 75% mitigation = 128.304 TPS
Melee aggro gain = 128.304 / 0.7 / 0.8 x 1.1 = 252 DPS
Ranged aggro gain = 128.304 / 0.7 x 1.3 = 238 DPS
 
Worst case scenario (75% DR from armor, 5% miss rate, 5% dodge, 5% parry):
100% - 5% miss = 95% * (100% - (5% dodge + 5% parry)) = 85.5% * 75% DR = 21.375 = 78.625% mitigation.
After 78.625% mitigation = 109.69992 TPS
Melee aggro gain = 109.69992 / 0.7 / 0.8 x 1.1 = 215 DPS
Ranged aggro gain = 109.69992 / 0.7 x 1.3 = 204 DPS
-----
 
Keep in mind that these stats are based on my gear and I'm not specced for tanking (don't have natural weapons 110% damage x 130% = +13% additional threat and I don't have the 145% threat talent either (+15%); these will give +29.5% additional threat (1.45 x 1.10 - 1.3) if you have both. The +3% melee crit aura will give you another 3 / 80 * 2 * 0.5 = 2.5% extra threat. Which totals a whooping 32.7375% (1.295 * 1.025) more threat in total if I respecc).
 
A well geared protection specced warriors should cause more aggro then me, that's why I would like to know why some of them let go from time to time. Is it because of a series of unfortunate crits that some people over aggro? Or because warriors are short on rage and can't get enough revenges/sunders on the target? Or something else? Right now I got the feeling the damage dealers are blaming the tanks and the tanks the damage dealers. Which is not a good situation to be in imho. (btw, I'm a healer so I'm neurtal :happy: ).
 
 
 
Edit: I just checked my weapon damage it's +/- 440 with maul (unmitigated).
Edit2: Corrected the modifiers for ranged and melee (I mixed them up, it was the other way around).
Edit3: Added some more stats and updated the calculations.
Edit4: Added a worst case scenario.
Edit5: Corrected the threat generated by crits (my 'source' got updated recently, they found out that mauls don't generate 4 times normal threat but just 2 times :blink:, which is more logical of course).

Bastet

If some1 gets a abnormal high crit (or other big spikes) before the tank has a bit of time to get agro, then yes, you get agro. Same with heals, just use HT rank 10 w/ NS and your dead.
 
After that, some classes can get over the agro cieling of a tank (the speed they make agro w/) hunters mainly, why they FD a lot. locks dont have the luxury.
Aszune (Alliance):
Sokhar lv 80 (H/M) Warrior, Sokhár lv 80 (H/M) Death Knight, Beset lv 70 (NE/F) Druid, Bastet lv 70 (NE/F) Rogue, Mentu lv 70 (Dr/M) Shaman
-=[dMw]=-Bastet (CSS) / -=[dMw]=-Niwa (BF2) / -=dMw=- Sokhar (BF2142)
-=[dMw]=- MVP Award Holder (June 2006) Winning team -=[dMw]=- Christmas Crunch (2008)

Sandrion

#22
I understand the first part, if you open with a couple of crits the tanks can't hold it.
 
But over-aggroing during a fight? Look at the numbers, even at 50% mitigation you will need to consistantly do a shitload of DPS to get it of me, let alone from a good tank.

Bastet

i wont make that much yes, but a hunter or warlock going all out can eazyly hit it, just ask ashjen, asheera or jt 8)
 
Also, thats a perfect world, no miss, dodge, parry on mobs, which wont happen
Aszune (Alliance):
Sokhar lv 80 (H/M) Warrior, Sokhár lv 80 (H/M) Death Knight, Beset lv 70 (NE/F) Druid, Bastet lv 70 (NE/F) Rogue, Mentu lv 70 (Dr/M) Shaman
-=[dMw]=-Bastet (CSS) / -=[dMw]=-Niwa (BF2) / -=dMw=- Sokhar (BF2142)
-=[dMw]=- MVP Award Holder (June 2006) Winning team -=[dMw]=- Christmas Crunch (2008)

Sandrion

Quote from: Basteti wont make that much yes, but a hunter or warlock going all out can eazyly hit it, just ask ashjen, asheera or jt 8)

Damn, do they really do that much DPS?
 
Oh and the mitigation includes misses/dodges/parries. But you can get an unluck streak of course.

Bastet

its not so much the dmg, but more the modifiers for thier dmg, not sure how it works, but i know rogue gets a build in modifier on threath of 0.8 so its really hard for us to take agro.
Aszune (Alliance):
Sokhar lv 80 (H/M) Warrior, Sokhár lv 80 (H/M) Death Knight, Beset lv 70 (NE/F) Druid, Bastet lv 70 (NE/F) Rogue, Mentu lv 70 (Dr/M) Shaman
-=[dMw]=-Bastet (CSS) / -=[dMw]=-Niwa (BF2) / -=dMw=- Sokhar (BF2142)
-=[dMw]=- MVP Award Holder (June 2006) Winning team -=[dMw]=- Christmas Crunch (2008)

Sandrion

#26
I thought ranged was 0.8, melee 1 and warriors in defencive stance and druids in bear form 1.3 (or 1.45 with talents).
 
Turns out I was wrong :unsure: , it's the other way around (updated the above post).
These are the correct modifiers: http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Aggro#Threat_modifiers
 
Btw, if any damage dealer wants to try over-aggroing a mob that I'm tanking, let me know, I'd really like to try it out.

Soulbringerx

Quote from: SandrionDamn, do they really do that much DPS?
 
Oh and the mitigation includes misses/dodges/parries. But you can get an unluck streak of course.

Us hunters can pull agro of the tanks most of the time but as it is not needed we don't do it as myself i'm running a threatmeter all the time so i can see how many agro i got, if i get to much agro ill feign or just ease down.
Soulangel
Holypriest 20/41/0

enchanting 375
tailoring 375

Soulbringerx

Quote from: SandrionI thought ranged was 0.8, melee 1 and warriors in defencive stance and druids in bear form 1.3 (or 1.45 with talents).
 
Turns out I was wrong :unsure: , it's the other way around (updated the above post).
These are the correct modifiers: http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Aggro#Threat_modifiers
 
Btw, if any damage dealer wants to try over-aggroing a mob that I'm tanking, let me know, I'd really like to try it out.

Always happy to help out m8 :)
Soulangel
Holypriest 20/41/0

enchanting 375
tailoring 375

Sandrion

Quote from: SoulbringerxAlways happy to help out m8 :)

Ok, throw me a wisper when I'm online and when you are ready to try it out. But I think we need mobs with more armor then the dragonkin from the burning steppes, since Manny couldn't get those of me unless he opened with two or three crits. Does anyone have any suggestions about where to find some elite high AC outdoor mobs that I can tank without needing to heal myself?