DKP System

Voretex · August 16, 2006, 02:45:01 AM

A thing that has been on my mind now for a while is the dkp system and fairness. The dkp system is designed to promote fair distribution of loot within a raid, based on the effort and time put into the instance by the individual player.

However, since time has gone on, new people have joined and are working there arses off, someone such as Xyco (sorry for using you as an example matey) Earned just over 1500 DKP, and Kreuz who has earned well into the millions and zillions. The DKP system is now allowing fair loot to be distributed to the new people, within the new instances that SoG are trying to overcome.

I've been thinking this for a while, but thought itd just be me bitch, then i saw Luthor's post so i thought, can't just be me thinking this.

What i wrote below was a copy and paste job i put in mene's thread 20 mins ago. So no need to comment on that in there.

QuoteLuthor has outlined serious problems with our DKP system.

We use the same DKP system for all 3 instances.

MC
BWL
AQ
And probs naxx when it comes.

As we all know the DKP is hugely mofo inflated. Im using this as an example (please no shouting at me)

Im going to use the druids Xyco and Vargen as examples here.

Xyco joined the guild couple of months ago, dedicated to raids, not seen him miss one yet, and holy hell he joins the guild and guess what? hes 3000 dkp behind Vargen, ouch in the face?

Thats equivilant to atleast 15 + drops. Before you all start shout "but lol, voretex he has been to more raids than Xyco, so he should get the loot first"

Oki oki, i agree with you there, vargen overall has put more work in that Xyco for all the instances (due to xyco joining later) BUT, hes done less work than vargen in AQ40. At present all the druids have ATLEAST 5 drops on xyco in any way or form, in BWL, some may say thats fine, but in AQ40 i think ouch thats a bitch for Xyco. He's put the SAME, if not more effort in than the rest of us druids, yet because of the insane amount of inflation from the DKP, he will always (assuming we all have the same attendance) be the LAST in line for any drops, providing all of us druids want it.

Tis just a big suggestion. I think we're the only guild i know that has the same dkp for all 3/4 40 man raid instances.

It would work great, if we all joined at the same time, but we didnt, some people have joined almost a year after the first DKP was issued.

It all does make sense, and i feel sorry for people like Xyco who have no chance in hell of getting loot in AQ40 for a long time.

*edit, before u say " butt yooooo?! heee am got leggings in AQ40. He got them because no one wanted them at the time "

You know it makes sense

Sep dkp systems ftw

*edit 2 - cant believed i typed that much at 2:30am - its alot for me aiiiight - "

- Discuss the need for separate DKP system to cut down the inflation and unfairness to the newer guildies among us for the new instance we encounter

Sinap · August 16, 2006, 04:28:27 AM

DKP is much more inflated than it was before, a full BWL clear for RG1 makes in excess of 200 dkp, where as before when I raided with RG1, we spent the same amount of time, and made like.. 30 dkp in MC. People who have been in SoG a month or so have made nearly as much dkp as I did when I was in SoG raiding for over half a year

Knabbel · August 16, 2006, 06:24:16 AM

Well that's a potion for attention. But also remember the following that when a new member joins he/she will get the loot that other already have. That is only for peeps ofc that are green or blue geared. Equip someone with T1 makes the distance pretty big to the toppers of the dkp of theire class. I was thinking of this in the way for Gallahan. Now RG2 does MC so the dkp winning isn't as much as RG1 in BWL. Although even RG2 get's a start on high dkp earnings. As I have 766 dkp now...that means I have my items for the dungeons we attend. If Gallahan would join RG2 at the stage RG2 was @ Nefarian then he would have a pain in the a$$ getting the dkp on the same lvl. Maybe the costs of items must be adjusted to up or boss killing dkp should be lower. I know the dkp issue is already know at the officers but was wandering how they come up with some good alternatives...... This is pretty a hard one. Maybe talk to some GM from other guilds...

I'm curious about the answers... :flirty:

Mazii · August 16, 2006, 06:47:13 AM

Quote from: KnabbelWell that's a potion for attention. But also remember the following that when a new member joins he/she will get the loot that other already have. That is only for peeps ofc that are green or blue geared. Equip someone with T1 makes the distance pretty big to the toppers of the dkp of theire class. I was thinking of this in the way for Gallahan. Now RG2 does MC so the dkp winning isn't as much as RG1 in BWL. Although even RG2 get's a start on high dkp earnings. As I have 766 dkp now...that means I have my items for the dungeons we attend. If Gallahan would join RG2 at the stage RG2 was @ Nefarian then he would have a pain in the a$$ getting the dkp on the same lvl. Maybe the costs of items must be adjusted to up or boss killing dkp should be lower. I know the dkp issue is already know at the officers but was wandering how they come up with some good alternatives...... This is pretty a hard one. Maybe talk to some GM from other guilds...

I'm curious about the answers... :flirty:

Tier2 costs 200/220, where Tier1 only cost 80/85.

Knabbel · August 16, 2006, 07:01:29 AM

Then how come the differences are so big @ RG1.... the 200/220 dkp costs per item isn't helping out the big differences then. Can it be that there are less drops there? There are 6 gear items that drop there (spoken about T2 in BWL) could it be the lack of good drops? Also some drops aren't an improvement then I think.

Mazii · August 16, 2006, 07:04:56 AM

It's because, like Vargen, some people have been in the guild from the start and have been earning DKP since then. Then Xyco joins and hes 3.000 DKP behind.

Bastet · August 16, 2006, 08:05:53 AM

Yes the current system has an inflation problem, but there are other systems which give pritty much the same (or different) problems, or just in a different form. There has been extended chats between the officers, but its proven extreemly hard to come up w/ a system that works good for us.

Luthor · August 16, 2006, 09:52:39 AM

I think the Current system is working Okey, not superb but okey, and really, including a Separate DKP system for each instance would not make it perfect, but it would exclude some of the problems within the current.

Our Current DKP site already holds Data for which instance we attended to, im sure its no problem. if it is i would like to help with the manual process of moving the DKP on to another Database. so it could be splitt and people that already have attended in AQ40 would be rewarded by it.

I would also think that a reset of the system is unfair for those that put countless hours in raiding. (including myself, or at least getting there)

It is already "working as intended" in AQ20/ZG sure it got flaws, but hey its way better than roll, or even a combined pool.

Im very glad you took up the discussion Voretex, yes its been in my mind for a very very long period of time. ive talked to Bastet about it, and he also made some good points. But i think the current way of doing DKP is leaving someone behind that are really doing an effort.

Also further supports my reasons for Separate DKP pools are our new random raids (yes i know we had it before). FX: Because of the randomess it is harder to have people staying away on certain raids. because they want the DKP for that dungeon, so they can get there phat lewt inside. but hey, why not satisfy with a BWL raid, it pays the best DKP and leaves my infront so i can get that nice piece from AQ40 when it drops.

Luthor

Sandrion · August 16, 2006, 09:55:33 AM

Creating a seperate system for every dungeon (or for every future dungeon, since a DKP reset at this point won't make people happy), will solve this problem to some extend. However this might prevent people from attending raids that won't gain them anything. Which is already a problem at the moment anyway, so I don't really expect this to become worse if the officiers dicide to implement this change.

Augmenting our current DKP system with a variation on the zero sum DKP system might also help to keep everything balanced and aid in preventing DKP from becoming worthless.

Luthor · August 16, 2006, 10:02:39 AM

You mean the one that works like real economy? 1 gets in 1 gets out?

Bastet · August 16, 2006, 10:02:55 AM

Trust me when i say zero sum has a lot of problems. we had hours and hours worth of discussion on that one. But also remember that what ever choise we make (yes the discussion on this is still on going) it will also reflect on RG2.

Sandrion · August 16, 2006, 10:28:56 AM

Yes, every system is unfair to some, that's why I said 'augmenting'. It definately won't work in it's 'pure' form.

I was about something like this:
Just keep awarding DKP for boss kills, attendence and so on. However if you distribute the DKP that someone spends on an item between everyone that whispered for the item (thus 'lost' something by not getting it), you will prevent people from getting to far ahead of the rest, but still reward players for their contribution.

Anyway it's just a thought.

And for those interested how the different DKP systems work; you can find a good explaination here: DKP Wiki.

KreuZ · August 16, 2006, 01:32:06 PM

Indeed all DKP systems have flaws and our current system has major flaws. We could change to a different system I guess with lesser flaws like for example the zero-sum system which imo has only 1 minor flaw.

TeaLeaf · August 16, 2006, 01:46:06 PM

What Kreuz is politely saying is that the officers did not find a better system at the moment than what we have already. One ma's minor flaw is another's major flaw and vice versa. However it is something that we continually disuss and future changes are always possible.

TL.

Bob · August 16, 2006, 02:05:04 PM

I don't have too much knowledge about DKP systems, but I too have noticed that there are major drawbacks with the one we're using now. With inflation perhaps being the biggest flaw.
So a change here would be good if you ask me (as little as I know though :tongue:)

Quote from: KreuZthe zero-sum system which imo has only 1 minor flaw.

I have read a bit about zero-sum, and it indeed looks like one of the better systems. I also had a long chat with Drazila at a party some time ago where he shared a few thoughts about some minor modifications one could add to zero-sum to make it even better.
But what is this one flaw you're thinking about Kreuz?